The Problem With Fandoms.

I am part of the problem?

I acknowledge that Meteora isn't their best album, I know that their stuff is repetitive, I think ATS is awesome, and I am looking forward to this album, and yet I am part of the problem? Because this is a fansite, and personally I am tired of seeing this constant bickering among fans over this imaginary LP each and everyone of us (at one point) have envisioned?

It's fine to have a certain view about the band, is not fine to continuously go on and on about the view like it's the end of the world about the band.
It's fine to "discuss" which rarely happens every time a new album comes out. let's take your post for example, you are automatically being the judge and the person deciding "I" am against the point of this post and "I" am the part of the problem.

You don't know me. So how can you pass judgment on me for agreeing with something I feel Mark said was right on!?

And no, it's not fine to have heated discussions about the same ole repetitive b.s. in a fansite about the band! It's best to stay on topic or just all together go find a new band or just don't post all. We don't need all this negativity about the same rehashed arguments for the course of 10 years now.

Sure if I wasn't a fan of this band, then perhaps I should be the one to leave and not stay but.. no. I like this band and I think this community to some extent needs to grow up and stop wishing so damn much for a band that isn't ever going to be what Mark stated to be more than that! It's freaking Linkin Park. Let's just enjoy it for what it is before there is ever no Linkin Park in the future. All good things eventually come to an end. So instead of sitting down and having a witch hunt of critical LP thinking because the band said A) B) & C) and really stuck to C) how about we just accept it that it's normal marketing strategy and just enjoy the music or not enjoy it at all?

It's not like we are part of the 'development' team. Our critical thinking isn't going to make the new album. We are not Linkin Park. This isn't a game that's being produced by a multi million dollar company, it's just music. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever to sit down and bicker over silly trivial things like songs structures on a band we don't have control over.

There isn't a "beta test" of Linkin Park's next album. We just get the album and listen to it and like it or don't like it.

Your OP statement says this:
" They become overprotective of it. They're threatened by differing opinions, whatever they may be. They take their words and criticismas an offence towards them specifically. It becomes, in a word, personal. "

The only thing I am taking personal is you accusing me of fandom when I think you are incorrect in your statement. Because again you know little about me. What I am taking into offense is just the fact this thread had to even be made. This is a fan site.

My only point is why the need to bicker? "You're replacing the love you have of the material with hate towards people who dislike it. "

I have no hate towards you. Honestly, you can not like Linkin Park all you want. You can tell me it's the world shittiest band in existance and hey I might agree with you to some degree. My point is why discuss it in a fan site? Why argue about it in such passionate detail for over 10 years now? What is the damn point?

We aren't helping the cause "as fans", specially when you say this:
"Get into discussions. Get into awesome conversations about the pros and cons about a particular type of sound or whatever. And when you disagree? That's fine, too. Don't take it personally."

This will never ever happen. Because it contradicts with this:
"Whatever your views are? They're yours. Whatever Linkin Park Album you like? That's yours, too. Nobody's taking it away from you by being 'mean' to it. You have nothing to gain by being evangelical about Nu-Metal, stagnation, or whatever"


So now again, why make this thread?

"YOU HAVE NOTHING TO GAIN".

 

Now, a question for Mark and Shadow and whoever else.

As a person who has high, possibly unrealistic expectations of the band (I prefer not to use the term "pedestal," because I actually don't think the band is a great band, just a band with great potential), how am I supposed to reconcile A Thousand Suns with lower expectations?

Because you guys say that the band is only a band that writes catchy music, but A Thousand Suns was not that. That album aimed higher than just that. Is that just the band's creative peak? Someone else said it on here recently, but that album was like a raising of the bar for the band. Is it really unreasonable to hold them to that standard? Is it just becoming more and more apparent that the band is not interested in going that route again?

 

I said you were part of the problem because of the way you chose to tackle the issue. You were telling others what they should think of the band, as opposed to actually discussing it. This only creates more problems.

Except it wasn't a simple agreement. Again, you said "Everyone should believe this".

Disagreement is not negativity, nor does it have to be. To treat it as such is to miss the point.

I have no idea where this is coming from, in terms of it being directed towards me. I've never made a statement on the bands direction in this thread. Just that telling people how they should view the band is the wrong way to approach this, and leads to problems.

I don't see why you feel the need to tell me this.

And you've just missed the point completely. There are multiple aspects to The Problem. You don't have to fall into all of them to be a part of it.

Why discuss it on a fansite? Because, fansites are where the community IS. There isn't a more sensible place to have this discussion. If you venture out, all you'll get is "LP is still relevant?". You can't really make the argument that fans should discuss what they like and dislike away from where the actual community is.

Except you're missing the goddamn point.

You can discuss something without being evangelical, holier-than-thou about it. That's the fucking problem, that's what people need to see. If you can't believe that, then you are a part of the problem.

I have a lot of things to gain from making this thread. A greater recognition of the problems online communities are going through, for one. How to better ourselves as a fanbase and make a more tolerable existance in heated times such as album cycles. To ask that people have some goddamn respect for one another.

I don't see why this is so hard to grasp.

 

Personally, and this is my personal opinion. That ATS was the energy of Reanimation put on full display in album new form and not remixed material. I enjoyed ATS fully for what it was, but at the end ATS itself falls into the band that writes catchy music. Someone earlier posted how ATS falls short in some country due to the songs being interludes and what not, and I agree with that in the same way I agree with that Meteora has repetitive In The End like structures, but to me.. I don't care to the Linkin park "fan" in me.. I enjoy the music because it's Linkin Park. I enjoy ATS and I consider it a very intense album because it put that energy [Reanimation] on display.

Do I think LP will revisit that sort of energy again ? Of course! Just like I am wishing as a fan of the Miami Heat that Dwayne Wade has an All-Star performance in Game 5 like he did in 2006 even though he's Lebron James shadow.

Creativity wise? As I've stated many times.. many many times.. (and as Mark said) is a catchy melody band. Their energy is hidden behind that, it's about listening to what is composed in that background noise that's they produced behind the vocals we've known and love and it really is a matter of "beauty is in the eye of the beholder".

What someone might consider "soft" or "electronic" in ATS someone might consider strong, hard and powerful in ATS.

And vice versa with the other albums.

To address you as an LP fan as long as LP is still together, you will see another creative album like that of ATS and perhaps even better. It might take time but that's just how produced music IMO works.

I am old for thread debates but I will say that after reading into some of your cursing and then getting into this last bit of the post that you are no different from what you are trying to portray in your OP. You need to accept the fact of "it's your meaning".

And it will be hard to grasp because we are human beings. And music touches a very special place in our soul which.. is why I consider music magic . But, honestly the best we can do as a fan base is just stay on topic and enjoy what they offer, the other stuff is just never going to happen.

As long as their is light, there will be dark, and where there is dark, there will be light.

 

It won't with that attitude. And I don't see why everyone has to always enjoy what the band puts out, either.

 

It's all about accepting the fact the band like to do different things.

LP did A Thousand Suns, yes. But that record barely was a good representation of everything the band like to make, or for that matter, of the members musical tastes.

If you check out Mike's spotify playlists, you'll realize the guy is a fan of tons of totally different things. Some complex stuff, some poppy stuff. Some old stuff, some new stuff. Some hip hop stuff, some indie stuff, some punk stuff, even some metal stuff. Point is, this band is destined to release each times a different kind of record . You can't expect a guy who sometimes is on some pop music thing to always go down the experimental road. You can't excect a guy who has punk roots to abandon heavy guitars forever in favor of more "unique" instrumentation. Etc.

So, all in all, I think setting ATS-standards for the band is quite unfair. Not because ATS represents a creative peak, as I think they could do a much more "cuttingedge" effort. But because ATS doesn't fully represent who LP, as a band, are.

 

Elaine, I've migrated here from the Official Linkin Park messageboards in 2002, and trust me I get what you are saying but trust me when I say that this will never happen. Music is too much of a personal thing. So to sit down and have a civilized "conversation" about a band you hold dear to your heart is like having a conversation about your special someone with a bunch of strangers. And not just a normal conversation but stuff that should be kept in the bed room with you and your partner. It's only normal for things to get heated, it's like you are sharing your special someone. The best course of action is to avoid that all together because at the end we are all humans. We all have feelings, and not everyone is the same.

So since this is a forum, a fan forum to be exact, best course of action is to avoid over-analyzing the facts. And sticking to the news, and enjoying the music or not...and trust me it's been like this since the old forums. I am guilty myself of going in the 'YOU'RE WRONG!" mentality..but that was years ago when I thought Hybrid Theory & Meteora were the "END ALL" of ALLLLLL rock music.. if you said anything bad about it.. I'd hunt you down with my linkin park pride and try to put linkin park sense into you..

but see I've grown up and I know just like me.. there's MILLIONS of other fans just like that and I learned it's just best to not debate the details of Linkin park, at the end we are all fans and it's a waste of time and leads to an argument.

^ this. I mean really same stuff Mark already stated. I always see Mike as that chef in the kitchen that's always willing to try something new with the melodies. He's another Dr. Dre IMO but for this weird genre that has yet to get a definition that only Linkin Park has. You never know what to expect from Mike to be honest. And their creative process is IMO pretty crazy, god knows how many songs we will never hear that were dope as hell to maybe many of us gone to the trash because the band felt "yea this just doesn't sound right".

If everyone just saw it as that.. as the band is always going to make a new dish every new album we'd be all a happy fan base. Of course some will probably argue here that it was that "Mike said.." or "Chester said.." x and such.. and then it didn't happen.. etc etc and I totally understand that but if you been following the band as long as I have you'd know by now is all part of the mainstream hustle. The boys gotta eat too ya know..

But I understand:

Hybrid Theory = Big Mac to some of you
ATS = Egg McMuffin or Bacon Egg and Cheese Biscuit

(replace them with the ones you want lol)

WB got us hooked and LP knows this.. lol

 

Call me an optimist. I believe that the internet can grow past always having to make things personal. I see this a lot, everywhere, and it kind of saddens me. What's wrong with it is that this behaviour encourages itself. That's why it's so prevalent. Why not try to be a force for the better? Why not try to spread a healthier attitude?

Fan forum doesn't have to mean an avoidance of all debates ever. Debates are healthy. They just have to be encouraged with a healthy mindset. Critical thinking is a gift more people need to have, and unfortunately, online, emotion always seems to trump this. I myself am guilty of this. In this very thread, even. But it does not need to be an omnipresent thing. We can have our cake and eat it, too.

 

I wonder what the world of music or any other form of entertainment would be like without fandoms/fanbases. What if people who happened to share a common interest in music just agreed that they have a common interest and never once consider themselves a fan of said music? Would this lead to less division and resentment over music in general? I wonder these things because it really is a shame to see a fanbase so divided and distant at times. I attribute this to there being such a wide diversity of music all over the world. I also think that cultural difference have a significant, if not the greatest, impact on who likes what type of music.

The golden question, then, is this: Would we be better off if fandoms/fanbases never existed in the first place? This could then lead to the following question: Without the existence of fandoms/fanbases, how would people with common interests in music interact with one another?

 

As I said in that post. It's too personal. Do you see people going outside spreading their fortunes to help the needy and poor? No. I'd love to be that realistic world to exist. That we could save people that are dying this very instant but the reality is we aren't doing that.. we are here debating something trivial as fans not getting along and not getting past the personal things.

Critical thinking of what though? As I stated to you earlier. How is our critical thinking helping the band? It does nothing but stem arguments, closed threads, and people getting out of line. No we cannot have our cake and eat it too. No lol. That's why this happens.

As a fan of Gears Of War and their fanbase, i will tell you that I see nothing different here that I see elsewhere. This fanbase IMO is more civil than those of gamers. I feel that if they have common interest it would lead to less division and more discover ability of liked music.

I don't think we can not "ever" exist with them. It's kinda like breathing air. We need air to breath, as soon as we are born we take our first breath and we breath. The first time you hear the band / song / and it touches you in that special way you become a fan. Whether you are a fan of just 1 song, or 1 album, you are a fan. People with common interest interacting in a fanbase IMO would lead to a band or various bands being formed out of the fanbase of that band. I can't think of what much more a common interest fanbase can do, but I will tell you this it will be better than this division thing we got going on.

I gotta deal with this in the EPIC (now BTS) forums. I have Gears fans that love Gear 1 for all that it is and is worth, you have a developer trying to portray what the game should really be, and then you get the game and a new fanbase is made out of that very same fanbase, and finally you got the veteran fanbase calling the new fanbase entirely soft and not knowing what they want. When we could all sit down and make an entirely cooler more polish game if we were open minded but.. again.. things get personal and it never happens. But unlike music, I know developers listen to their fanbase to make their games.

And some pretty good established developers were made of being fans of other games, just like linkin park was made from being fans of various musical genres. Hell to this day I am waiting for a band that is born from this community, one that per-say could surpass Linkin Park. But.. I've yet to see it because we are always bickering instead of getting along.

Edit:

Correct me if I am wrong but I never see a thread being made about "Wastelands; did you hear that awesome swish sound being made everytime he did the chorus?" or "Mike sounds like he has that shouting effect the Beastie Boys use in their tracks, how could would it be if .. he .." etc etc

Like we don't get into those convos here ever. If we do, someone comes into and belittles the other person.. says THIS IS WAY COOLER than your crappy idea and bam! argument.

I wish I could pop everyone's cherry by saying:
A) Get a 5.1. digital audio system
B) Get Reanimation DVD-A
C) Sit in the middle of your room and crank it to a decent level and listen to all the detail Linkin Park put into reanimation

D) Ask yourself, "Wouldn't it be cool if I could hear every album like this?" "Wouldn't it be cool if every album had a DVD-A version of it?" "Wouldn't it be cool for me to learn how to make things like that?

One thing I'll give this community I am happy with that is still alive is fan remixes. The one thing I'll give the LP community gets together on is that. I feel partially responsible for sparking the idea in the old official forums and I am so freaking happy that 10 years later is still going and people are coming in and accepting LP for what it is and trying to learn to "upgrade" songs with their own taste.

 

Mark, you sorta have to be a blind fan to enjoy Linkin Park. If we do the justified criticism approach.. which in LPs case there is alot of things to justify we truly won't ever enjoy the music or the band.

Which doesn't rub many people the right way. Everything said in this quote is justifiable criticism. Anything else would be asking more of the band than what they can output. If people saw beyond that aspect we wouldn't have pissing contest. This is the point where we come to the realization there's a lot better music out there than linkin park if we go with that approach. Go with the blind fan approach and you realize there is nothing else like Linkin Park. For me IMO, I rather go with the blind fan approach so I can enjoy LP for what it's worth. I go with the justifiable criticism approach and I really have no reason to listen to Linkin Park as there are better songs made through time that are much better and superior than what Linkin Park can ever dream to achieve.

And not to troll you but you said that you didn't say they only write catchy music but later admit that really (unless you have more things to praise about them) the only saving grace for Linkin Park is that they do write catchy rock music that they play live and it's awesome, anything beyond that is really gravy. So really what is there to look at from LP?

Which is why I said you have to be a blind fan to enjoy the band. Try the reasonable approach and you'll be disliking it , hating it, and saying all sorts of negative things about em because they deserve it and again.. it's LINKIN PARK.

The common interest of what defines Linkin Park but this would be entirely my opinion in regards that they are geniuses when it comes to making their instrumentals. And I feel music making community acknowledges and is aware of that and would like to be like Linkin Park, just like the next guy wants to be the next Slash guitar player or Tom Morello.

If we could only harness that positive aspect of LP that'd be pretty awesome.

 

What I like to do is mostly ignore the rest of the fanbase and enjoy what I like by myself.

 

If you're referring to the swish sound in the UFC preview, the swish sound is most likely due to the fact that it's commercial. They make those sounds for visual impact. I'd bet money that it isn't a part of the song.

 

The inherit problem with any kind of fandom is the lack of objectivity displayed by the people who inhabit it. Doesn't necessarily matter what opinion someone's trying to express.

 

*High fives while eating bagel* They're kinda uncomfortable, and they don't always work. And besides, when you---oh wait, you said fandoms?