Just a few quick facts: The majority, 54% of women who have abortions, used a contraceptive during the time they had had sex and became pregnant. Also, the risk of abortion complications is minimal, less than1%, not that it doesn't happen, but it's extremely rare. And again, the death rate of women having abortions is about 11 times less than that of childbirth. http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_..._abortions.html And I'm debating "personhood" here. Within the time that the vast majority of abortions occur (about 6 months), a fetus cannot be considered a human PERSON, and therefore is not protected by law, nor capable of being murdered. What is the biggest, if not only distinguishing factor of a human person? Advanced thought. It is the root of our society, culture, language, and our way of life. A human fetus before the age of at least 6 months has been scientifically proven to lack the necessary brain architecture to think. Therefore, before this time, a human fetus cannot be considered a human person.: http://www.2think.org/science_abortion.shtml I'm going to leave what I said about "hollow existance" alone, and stop talking about it, because you misinterpreted my meaning, or I didn't bring it across clear enough. Some people who spend their whole lifes in foster homes DO feel this way. That's all I'm going to say. Please, do not read into anything I say as hostility. With the expression "that's fine and dandy" I was pointing out how subjective that one subject was. I was not belittling your ideas, your opinions, your thought process, or 'pointing any fingers'. I enjoy a good debate, and that's what I'm out for, nothing more. Of course adoptions better than murder, which is throwing a kid out of a window. The topic has evolved to more than that. I'm debating abortion and adoption on a whole, not jjust the particulars of this woman's actions with her child any more. Never did I once say that ALL adopted kids are screw ups. But some are. Hell, some kids that aren't adopted are screw ups. But some studies have been conducted to show that if you spend your life motherless, or in a foster home, emotional, social, and phsychological abnormalities are more common. And the bit about the government was just a comment on how making abortion illigal would be invasive...it wasn't really directed to any one person, moreso the topic at hand.
I think everyone agrees on that. People who are arguing for abortion right now is talking about cases when protection is used, but nevertheless get pregnant. As tempting as it is to believe that, people just aren't that simple. No woman just flips a coin and decides, oh why the hell not, lets get an abortion. No girl casually asks herself before having sex, oh so what if I have to have an abortion? Thats like saying, oh so what if I get aids having sex? No big deal. Do you think irresponsible teenagers are thinking about things like abortion and aids when they decide to have sex? Probably not. If they are, they clearly believe it won't happen to them. They probably aren't taking the bit of "fun" seriously at all. And then when they do get pregnant, they probably aren't saying, oh well, i can just get an abortion and thats that. No, the consequences (such as abortion, pregnacy and anything else unprepapred and irresponsible sex entails) are probably weighing heavily on them by that time.
points taken but there is already a topic here dedicated to teen pregnancy. also if you are told that contraceptive pill is 99% secure, for accidents with connies or whatever you can get early morning pills which has 85% reliability, maybe those 54% women took less relieable means, whatever. i have not heard of widespread childbirth deaths in ages, still dont know why its demonised here so much. to debate with you if featus is human or not is as much controvertial as debating eating and not eating animals. great you provide links, but who can trust internet 100% i can find you now sites that would tell you that you are endangering yourself by drinking milk as many there are sites telling you the opposite, both with sufficient, reliable resources of medical research. its a personal choice in the end and comes down to personal belief and choice. abortion should neither be forced, nor should it be denied.
Why are you telling me this? I was just going along with the discussion, like you were; I was responding to your post, and it was only logical that I respond to it in this thread where your post is, not in the teen pregnancy thread where your post isn't. Don't worry, I know what I'm doing enough so that I won't just pull topics out of thin air without any relevance to the discussion at hand .
therefore, what you said about "all female species are and none of them are underbuilt for their purpose, nature isnt that cruel at all." would be false. besides, even without the hygiene factor, there are still many complications that can occur during a pregnancy. if by any chance you had none, it does not mean many women dont as well. using protection doesnt give you a 100% chance of not preventing pregnancy that doesnt mean its happening in society. women are always being shortchanged, especially when it comes to having children. its not fair that women are always being blamed for getting pregnant/having an abortion, a man can easily just leave her, and women are being told (by people like you) that their purpose in life is to be a mother. abortion is proven to be more safe than being pregnant, especially in teenage girls. like i said before, you cannot be 100% protected well we dont really know the circumstances of this situation. who, knows, maybe she had a gun pointed to her head. but if it were just her being irresponsible and adoption was possible, then yes, it was very wrong and adoption should have been done. they do. you might not, but many people do. if they didnt, im pretty sure the makers of those baby-born dolls would have been bankrupt by now. i do think they should start teaching teenagers about safe sex instead of just abstinence. thats part of the problem with teenage pregnancies. there are going to be kids that have sex, so they might as well teach them how to be safe about it, but i do not think telling a girl she shouldnt have an abortion because she was irresponsible does not help the situation at all.
I had to make a comment here. Dude...prevention...that is 100% protection. That's not having sex. [/b][/quote] thats abstinence i meant prevention as in protection, like condoms, birth control pills, etc.
thats abstinence i meant prevention as in protection, like condoms, birth control pills, etc. [/b][/quote] Ah, okay. My apologies.
goso, i was talking to link 04 as he said he wants to discuss abortion and adoption as in issues on its own without relating to the case that has started this thread, i was not telling you not to react to my post, i was just pointing out that there is already a thread that has been discussing these issues so it might be interesting to go there for link 04 if he wants to widen the debate on a thread solely dedicated to that. gosh, pyromaniak, i SAID BEFORE AND SHALL I REPEAT MYSELF TILL THE END OF THE WORLD OR SOMETHING, I AM NOT AGAINST ABORTION, BUT NEITHER I AM GONNA ADVOCATE ABORTION BEING FORCED ON WOMEN EITHER. so dont judge me what i tell people what to do.... i dont hold gun to anybody's head and never have done, as i said i am sharing my opinions, i am hardly putting laws in place and going round schools or baricading abortion clinics. before you say things like that do bother to read people's post in detail, neither project. I am getting bord of making that point clear. I am not against abortion, neither i am for forcing it, neither i am for advocating it before advocating safe sex, if that fails, and no other option, i dont prevent people to go for it. there are even teenagers who choose to be pregnant for godsake, should they be forced to abort because childbirth is demonised by some,, i would not advice them to have kids, neither i am gonna force them to abort just because i think its better. ITS THEIR CHOICE. And i did already say here i had to have an emergency ceasarian, hold on, you telling me i had easy time or something????? but just because there are complications one is supposed to run away? that may be one person's way, but not others. listen i hate barbies, my daughter loves them, did i force her into liking them? i used to hate dollies and would paint for hours instead, while my daughter paints she also plays with dolls, her choice, not all girls are born feminist and hate dolls, they might not be to brainwash kids into future parenthood, kids like dolls or teddies for comfort, for role play and for copying their mother, is their mum supposed to stop being a mum so they are rightfully feminist without a choice? dont put women into being victims of men, if a woman knows how to say no, there is no men who would abuse her. i have showed my ex a door when he started being agressive just towards furniture! you get yourself into a trouble and you blame whole world for it, is that responsibility? no. and let me give you a reality check, a hell lot of MEN HELP WITH BRINGING CHILDREN UP ACTIVELY, A LOT OF WOMEN GO OUT TO WORK WHILE MEN MIGHT TAKE CARE OF KIDS, THERE ARE EVEN SINGLE DADS OUT THERE FOR GOD SAKE. THERE ARE MEN WHO RESPECT WOMEN AND WHO DO NOT SEEK TO BRING HER POWER DOWN. I EVEN HAVE FEW MALE FRIENDS WHO HAD TO SUFFER VIOLENCE FROM THEIR GIRLFRIEND, now let me tell you a men would be arrested for that, but not the girl, HEY GUYS ON THE FORUM IS THAT FAIR? IS IT ONLY WOMEN WHO ARE HARD DONE BY THE MEN? feminists are equal to sexist guys, both is slightly stinking of unfairness and hate towards the opposite sex. how far does hate get you? it comes down to self hate. you cannot give what you aint got, and if you aint got self love, its hate you got and hate you give. whats the point of hating men? whats the point of feeling like a victim and blaming men for everything that women let themself loose? BUILD A SELF LOVE FOR YOURSELF, FOCUS ON BRINGING IN YOUR LIFE YOUR OWN PERSONAL POWER and nobody will fuck with you, and you will be able to live your life in respect and love with the opposite sex, yeah with complication here and there but life is a learning journey. so if you choose to sit in a feminist corner, dont blame others for not choosing to sit there! I believe in EQUAL POWER. I have my own power, the guy i am with has his, i am not gonna let him take mine if he tries and i aint gonna take his away from him either just because i'd feel dont have my own.
why did you change give birth to having unprotected sex? whatever, this is what happens when you dont have an abortion [/b][/quote] she shouldnt of had the kid if she didnt want it and after she had it instead of killing it she shoulda put it up for adoption or something...and abortion is bad so she did the rite thing by not aborting it
iamrighthereandnow, you lookey WAY into my post. 1. no where in there did i say women are better than men, i was saying THEY ARE EQUAL BUT ARE SHORTCHANGED IN SOCIETY AND ANATOMY. no where in there did i say that all men are evil, that there are no single male parents. 2. did i say that you tell or force women to have abortions or not? no. and if you think i did then i would really like you to quote me on that and i will apologize/explain myself if i have. 3. if a teenager wants to have a kid, then fuck, let them. i was trying to keep some-what to the topic, hence me focusing on teenagers who did not want to have a kid, not ones that do. 4. i did not talk about dolls in a way that its too girly. i was talking about the dolls of babies where they teach them about early motherhood when theyre fucking 5 years old. 5. maybe you should read my posts more thoroughly before jumping to conclusions. i, as well, am tired of repeating myself. PunkChik: you didnt read the whole thread, did you? the circumstances of this issue is unknown, so maybe none of that was even possible.
pyromaniak, your paragraph number 3 (by people like you) do i go around telling women their only purpose in life is motherhood? NO. AND I TOLD YOU BEFORE, I WAS TALKING OF BIOLOGICAL FUNCTION not social aspect. check it out sweetheart, how exactly are women shortchanged in anatomy, female species live longer, health of women is generally better then health of men, female fetus is more likely to succeed to full term - more male fetuses then female die or are defected. female sperm lives longer as well. women have bigger pain treshhold then men..... are we really anatomically shortchaged? i would rethink that were i you. there are a lot of instances men are socially shortchanged also, so dont paint a picture how just women suffer. it comes for both sides.it takes two to tango. women are the ones mostly left with kids because a kid needs both parents but mother is the one who a child needs more to be nurtured. that is why courts give kids to the care mostly of women. most of women cant be parted with their kids anyway, so that is why women appear as the sole carers when relationships break down. its not social shortchange. and you can hardly talk about shortchanged when a hell lot of women work and have kids too. i dont see teaching girls with those baby dolls as bad. reality is people will have children, why not teach them what it entails in reality, then let people have romantic motions. they do include boys within these programs, i would see that more as a detterent then hey you will be a mum so i am gonna throw this doll at you to make sure you will choose parenthood. the sooner you teach responsibility, the better for you. there are a hell of teenagers, for example in uk teenage pregnancy is the highest, you cant force them all to abortion, so sooner the better really if they can have a real picture that baby isnt just fun, but takes a lot of time and energy and responsibility, why not? i do read your posts in detail, even to other people, i would not know otherwise that you call people insane (goso88), attack their IQ(vampire), and now you patronized punk chick, what next?
Her response to that question is in her first pargraph . You're right, iamrightthererightnow. There are a lot of instances when men are socially shortchanged also, and we shoudln't paint a picture of how just women suffer. Just like there are a lot of instances when women are not fit for labor, and we shouldn't paint a pretty picture of how all women are in shape for labor.
shortchanges socially women’s wages are still lower than men’s on average, about 78 cents to every dollar, i believe. even school bus drivers who are women get about $5 less an hour than men. maine's goal is to reach a 90:100 ratio by 2010, and maine is one of the best ratios in the country (somewhere around #15). even if the wages become equal, it would take a lot of social changes and probably wont happen in quite a while. country- industry & services;manufacturing australia- 90;85 egypt- 97;74 el salvador- 89;95 eritrea- 58;no data korea- 62;56 latvia- 80;89 portugal- 67;69 sri lanka- 90;85 swaziland- no data;71 sweden- no data;90 males dominate most high paying jobs and sports especially. and what, the only thing men are shortchanged for are for child custody? women's are much more critical. ooh, female sperm lives longer. im sorry, but women's shortchanges in anatomy are much greater than that. women have to go through child birth, menstruate, and they have weaker bodies (where they can be abused or attacked with small defense). its ludicrous to say it is equally as bad. i know, there are lots of men that are shortchanged and not treated fairly. my sympathy is not to women only. im just saying that women are shortchanged more. oh, i patronized PunkChik now? what. the. fuck. i was simply stating that i believe she did not read the whole thread because of her response, and that if she did, maybe she would take into consideration that there was only a paragraph of information given. we do not know what was going on, she could have had a gun pointed at her head. i didnt even mean it as a negative way. now i dont care if you think im a mean person, but i do care if you interpret my statements incorrectly. i did not attack vampires IQ. i did not call goso88 insane, i really didnt mean it to come out that way so i apologize, goso88.
then you should have expressed its what you think and not what she did, otherwise you do patronize, since she pulled out a snip from middle of the thread i would think she did go thru some and she was just expressing her opinion, whether it was right or wrong. you did called gosso that in the thread about parents fighting for a baby just because she didnt agree that the parents are torturing the baby in question, i believe you did attack vampires iq in marriage forever threat. its retracable, so i dont think its just my interpretation. i believe men do have their own problems with their bodies. and anatomicaly they are shortchanged as i already stated. why are there more older women then men then? to equal women's wages women should apply pressure on the companies, if they don't and work happily for lower wages, they are being walked over voluntarily. one thing is to complain, the other do something about it. just like the suffragetes fought for women to have right to vote and do we have a right to vote?Yes. goso 88 i dont deny childbirth can be difficult and i aint saying its a walk thru apple orchard, but i am also against it being so demonised and painted so tragic. otherwise every pregnant woman today should be writing her last will when she finds out she's pregnant and before due date have a goodbye party in case she dies.
I didn't say at any point that you denied childbirth was a walk through the park. I was not adressing that issue in my post. Nor was I adressing the issue concerning the demonization of childbirth. I was talking about how the inaccuracy of saying that all women can are physically fit to have babies. I never implied that all women couldn't have children because it would endanger their health or life. I was talking about cases when women are already too unhealthy or in some other way unfit to endure the childbirth. Here's my point: I agree many women are fit enough to bear a child. However, not all women are, and we shouldn't diregard them.
i didn't imply that it was you who demonised childbirth, it has been in this thread by few other people. no not all women are fit to have babies, but in general todays medical care means it should not be as feared as in the past. and the medical care is getting better all the time. so its not as scary as it sounded at places. anyway, this thread has been talked thru so much, so this is my last comment....