Remembrance Day

Discussion in 'Serious Chat' started by Anthony., Nov 11, 2005.

  1. #61
    esaul17

    esaul17 antichrist

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    So we are respecting those who muder for us? Still murder, even if it is for a just and respectable cause.
     
  2. #62
    Minus

    Minus ohai LPA Addicted VIP

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    EDIT: This is addressed to Link.

    Not everyone goes to the military because they want to kill.

    The sole purpose of the military is not to kill. That is not why people join the military.

    The military, as you will find out next year (looking at your birth year), offers college assistance. For those who cannot afford to pay tuition, for those who are not smart enough or qualify for scholarships, the military offers a way out. Sign up for the reserves, we'll pay for college. It's that simple. Some people just want to go to college. That may be all there is for them.

    While you can disrespect the IDEA of the military all you want, DON'T in any way disrespect the soldiers.

    Yes, they are involved in killings. Do they have a choice? It's the only way they can serve their country without a Master's degree (in which case you could get an office job at some government facility) or a large amount of cash (which is how politicians get started).

    But you seem to be against killing in general. Your grandfather never even killed anyone, yet he ASSISTED.

    So killing in general is bad? What if you were attacked? Your life was on the line? Would you defend yourself, i.e. kill the other guy, or hold to your views on killing and let the other man kill you?

    That's the same situation. Soldiers don't kill innocents (unless by accident, and that's something else entirely), they kill those who threaten the lives of others.

    I'd post more, but you're not worth the time, and I need to get to class anyways.
     
  3. #63
    Link04

    Link04 Ambient

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    I'm well aware of the monetary assitence the military provides.

    I never once speculated on an individuals' reasoning for joining the military. I stated what the military is and what the military does. The military kills people. There is no evading that. Killing people intentionally is murder, there is also no evading that.

    I don't see how you can logically argue that an individual has no CHOICE to but to kill, when they themselves were the ones that chose to enter the military! Whether their options are limited or not, it's their name that they sign on the dotted line, I already stated this: "People choose to enter the military. In times of draft, people choose to be coerced. Even if a man holds up your store, do you not choose to give him the money?"
    They put themselves in the situation. In times of draft, they still chose to agree with compulsary military service. They CHOSE to. Does anyone enter the military who's unaware to the cold fact that the military's main function is killing other people?

    Your analogy confuses the situation of a soldier. Like I've said in this post, a soldier chooses to put his or her life on the line, and a soldier chooses to place himself into the way of danger. How this foolishness ever got to be a noble act, I remain ignorant of. Thus, it's anything but the same situation.

    "Not worth your time" I'd thank you to leave attacks of my person out of this. I believe, unless I'm mistaken, that I've given the same respect to you.
     
  4. #64
    esaul17

    esaul17 antichrist

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    While you always have a choice, if that choice is be or be killed, I can't really blame the soldiers.
     
  5. #65
    Link04

    Link04 Ambient

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    Right, but, like I said, they're the ones that put themselves in that situation. They chose to be in that "kill or be killed situation." That goes along with the territory if you sign up for the army.
     
  6. #66
    esaul17

    esaul17 antichrist

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    Not with conscription. It may not be kill or be killed, but the alternative isn't really a viable option.
     
  7. #67
    Anthony.

    Anthony. .Orestes LPA Super VIP

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    Link, you're constantly contradicting yourself. You'd like everyone to live by your principles, wich concern individuality and freedom of choice yet you show a total lack of respect towards those who don't/didn't live by those "ideals". While sitting confortably in front of a computer, you tell us we should not honor people who fought for your right to sit on your fucking ass while disagreeing about every organized thing/society that may spring to your mind.
     
  8. #68
    Will

    Will bread crumbs & white stones LPA Addicted VIP

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    That's an awful argument. A lot of people join the military to help them pay for college with no thoughts of ever going into combat or even wanting to go into combat. That right there destroys any argument that you can make based off of that.
     
  9. #69
    esaul17

    esaul17 antichrist

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    They choose to take that risk. If they joined the army thinking armies NEVER fight, they are just morons.
     
  10. #70
    Will

    Will bread crumbs & white stones LPA Addicted VIP

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    Congratulations on ruling out the fact that there are other jobs within the military that don't require fighting. There are jobs where all you have to do is sit in front of a computer or, hell, even CLEAN weapons. Those people rarely ever seen combat face to face unless something big happens. So you're wrong.

    And don't give me that bullshit about "aiding the murderers."
     
  11. #71
    Link04

    Link04 Ambient

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    I doubt very many people actually want to go into combat.

    I don't see how anything you said destroys my argument. Again, I haven't made any effort to speculate on anyone's motives for joining the military. I'm talking about cause and effect. Given the definition of the military, one would think that possible combat would be implied. If they didn't think about that, then frankly, that's on them. It was their decision, it was their judgement, no one elses. Why am I supposed to revere them for not considering the effects of their action? Your argument of extending sympathy and respect to people who choose to let someone else put them onto a battlefield is non-sensible at best.

    And explain how them "aiding the murderers" is bullshit. You seem to be making a lot of statements with only a few attempts at logical proof.
     
  12. #72
    Will

    Will bread crumbs & white stones LPA Addicted VIP

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    You know what? I'm done here. If you don't want to have respect for the people who fought for your fucking freedoms, that's fine by me. It's obvious that no-one's going to change your fucked-up views.
     
  13. #73
    Minus

    Minus ohai LPA Addicted VIP

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    Haha, the kid is like what... 16? At this point in life, he either believes everything is right or is willing to believe others, depending on how life has been to him.

    But seriously Link, your argument is silly. The fact that the military MIGHT put you in a combat situation is not argument enough to say "It's your own fault."

    When you sign up to do computer work, it doesn't imply that you might hold a gun and fire it at someone.

    Take someone in a car. They drive home from work as they usually do. A drunk driver hits them and they lose limbs.

    I guess we're not supposed to feel sorry for them at all, not pity them AT ALL, because they didn't consider the possibility of getting in a car accident. I guess they shouldn't have been driving at all because there's the POSSIBILITY of getting in an accident.

    People consider the fact that they might be sent into combat. The fact that you're just doing computer work would probably outweigh the fact that you might be going into combat. Could you SEE someone who is planning to major in Computer Programming (i.e. Nerd) going into combat? Neither could they when they signed up. They just saw it as a way to pay for college. They think, "Well look at me. Why would they send me?"

    But they do.

    Sometimes they aren't even trained to fight. Maybe they don't even know how to HOLD a gun. Why send him?

    Yet they do.

    And it happens. This is not a hypothetical situation. This is the story of my friend who graduated a few years ago.

    He's probably the least possible person to be sent into combat, but wanted to do work for his country.

    And now he's being sent to war.

    So are you ready to cast the first stone on him? Do you have any sympathy?
     
  14. #74
    the_king_of_all

    the_king_of_all LPA Super Member LPA Super Member

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    Wrong. I would go into combat without question if it was fighting for what i believed and the people and freedom i love. And i would do my best to protect what i believe right, just as soldeirs have being in years gone by. Now, take the Nazis for example. yes. their teachings were moraly wrong, but the people who were fighting in the German army at the time were fighting for what they beleived to be right, no matter how wrong it might have been. those who signed up volentarily did so because they thought they were fighting to have a better world. And if you have trouble respecting those that have faught for what they believe? Think of this. You and your friend are walking home from school/work/whatever and you have to cross a road. you walk out without looking, right infront of a car. Your friend sees the car, throws himself out into the road, pushing you out of harms way, but in the process injuring or killing himself. Would you not respect him for saving you? protecting you? If the answer is yes then there is no difference between what that friend did and what soldeirs are doing now. Now do not give me that shit about 'yeah but they're murdering people.' Again. another hypothetical situaton. you are in school/a bar/whatever and you get into a fight. now this guy who is hitting you and kicking you isn't gonig to stop unless you do something about it. i.e hit him back. And if you try briging up Iraq? Let's replace you in that fight with a friend. your best friend is getting the shit beaten out of him and only you can stop it happening. No. Iraq is not America's best friend, but the point of saying that is just because something doesn't effect you, does not mean it is wrong to stop it. I'm done with this now. I hope you understand what i'm trying to say. (Oh. one more thing, just incase you try, I don't need some answer about how 'I don't have to cross a road on my way home from work/school/whatever' or 'My friends don't get in any fights'.)
     
  15. #75
    NickelNine

    NickelNine It's the gin talking >>>>> LPA VIP

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    Your lack of respect is disgusting. I will provide an example for you. Let's say you are being threatened. The only way to live is if your dad chooses to put his life at risk to save yours. He chooses to put his life at risk. Your dad gets killed. You are saved. According to all your posts, at his funeral you would say, "I don't respect him. He knew his life was at risk. Oh well." Your dad didn't kill anyone and wasn't attempting to kill anyone. Him dying defended you. You, in all your selfishness, don't acknowledge your dad's act. What do you think your dad would think of your reaction? What if your roles were reversed? How would you feel if your dad didn't care?
     
  16. #76
    Link04

    Link04 Ambient

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    Hate to bring this back up, but I've been busy.

    Look guys, I can tell no one is getting anywhere here (especially when you start referring to my age...talk about an ad hominem), so I'll throw in some final thoughts and hope to bring some closure to this thread.

    Surely, I could concede that ones who sign up for the military to work on computers, or as a mechanic may be taken by surprise when a gun is placed in their hand. I, for one, have not seen a military contract. Does anything in it say that it will/won't do that in times of "need?" If so, well, then, like I've been saying, it's on them, they put their names down. If not, then another injustice is present.

    Nickel, your analogy, like most attempted ones toward this situation, isn't applicable. This is not a dichotomy, this is not as mind-numbingly simplistic as you make it out to be. No one has to die! It's not me or him, or me or my father, or me or my neighbor, or me or a guy in a third world country! I just don't think anyone has to die, I think there are far more productive ways of solving the situation then by taking away a portion of the world's wealth of minds, bodies, houses, ect. Is it idealist? Yes! I happen to want better for the human race, I refuse to settle for the fallacous rhetoric that tells me that in order to live, someone else must die; that mercantilist view of the world should have died a few centuries ago along with Adam Smith. People have an intrinsic value, as well as intrinsic rights. During war time, value is stripped away and rights are trampled on, all because both sides lose sight that the globe is made up of one population striving to work and live better, healthier, and easier. We lose that sight by over-extending our influence through foreign policy, they lose that sight by retaliating violently. Is more violence to better the situation? Why don't we prescribe a virus to treat the virus? I expect better of people, that's all.
     

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