Pyro--I think when Xero said this, he was referring to your salt/wound analogy (and I think its blatantly clear he understands its different from his own analogy) where the pain meant to torture the baby and pain thats meant to hurt the baby makes no difference to the baby, because the baby just doesn't have the logic to understand the difference. Xero said thats illogical because you assume the only way its going to make a difference to the baby is if she had the logic to understand the difference, when this is not the case at all. (This also explains why he said you assume it matters to the baby whether it knows its being tortured or not, and if you look at it in this sense, you are assuming that. Its just depends on how you look at it, I suppose.) Because the salt in your analogy can help the baby, it does matter to her whether or not the baby has the logic to comprehend that. Also, later, the baby will, to some extent, comprehend it when it is healed. So, yes, there is a difference to the baby between pain thats meant to torture her and pain thats meant to help her. And thats why he's saying your argument is illogical. Whereas in his analogy, the salt will cause the baby excruciating pain, but it won't necessarily help her, so it doesn't matter if she knows the salt is supposed to help heal wounds, because whether it might help heal wounds or not, it just doesn't heal her wounds. To me, that makes perfect sense. (I responded to this argument in his original post, using his football analogy--oh so many analogies). (Correct me if I'm completely wrong Xero; like we said, its english ><;. No, I never assumed that the baby knows that. (This is responding to your salt/wound analogy, not Xero's) I assumed that whether or not the baby has the logic to know that the pain is meant to torture or to help her, it still matters to the baby, for the reasons stated earilier in this post. (Again, in this case, I just think it depends on how you look at it.) Sorry if we seem like dunces, but we're also doing our own fair share of explaining and repeating our points. I think thats what normally happens in a debate; you clarify when necessary, you explain. And believe me, your not the only one who feels like they're explaining their points abundantly enough. Again, thats not because any of us are dunces (not that I'm saying you said that), its because we have strong stances and we can't reiterate them enough. Smooches
thank you for further clarifying what you meant. i was using the analogy to isolate one specific problem, whereas minus xero was using it to explain the problem as a whole. i hope you get what im saying now.. hopefully.
the baby understands the intentions. how do you learn language, from hearing the voice and the intonations behind it that convey the intention of the people around you that you depend upon.. i have a child and before she could speak, there was a nonverbal communication between me and her father and those around her, although babies dont speak they can communicate and understand your intention. if i wanted to change her nappy she'd know not from my words but from the intention that was behind my voice and body language and the way i held her. as soon as they are born they know who their mother is although their sight is pretty poor, they recognize your voice, your smell etc. they feel confortable with you, yet if a person who doesnt know them picks them up they do make it visible that they know who the stranger is, again, intuitevely somehow they know whom of those stranger they could trust and at whom to scream at and feel unsafe, usually whom the mother is not confident with too. yes, we are programmed to avoid pain, but paradoxically, facing the pain makes us stronger. if you live your life in fear of pain and avoiding it at all cost, you are actually killing yourself at the core. you live your life robotically, without looking for awareness. without sorrow there is no joy. without pain there is no depth, etc. and yes, it would matter to me if somebody did hurt me deliberately or to help me. i totally agree what goso88 said about it. i also think that more outcry should be there for aborted featuses that are left to die on the ward with no dignity as came out earlier this year. abortion in uk is left till a stage when they can be considered to have some self awareness of what is going on, when they are fully formed etc. i would consider it more of a torture as there is nobody who takes care of them, who ensures that they leave this life without being left somewhere in the bins, corridors still alive as a piece of rubbish. at least that baby is taken care of, is treated with love and given dignity unlike those babies. if she dies there will be people to send her away with love and not just abandon her as if she didnt matter at all. if people dont make sure to take responsibility not to get pregnant when they have reasons not to and cant keep the baby,why not take responsibility if there is abortion that at the stage when the organs are not developed and the baby yet hasnt got a heart and brain. if its beyond that, and still they cant keep it, why not give it for adoption?it would burden my consciousness much less (but still) then thinking of the fatal injection for the fetus to die and if it survives the death somewhere on its own. if people abort their child just on basis of it being the 'wrong' sex culturaly as in some of the cases of those late abortions (reasons why many hospitals will not tell the sex of the baby before the final weeks permitted for abortions) is just plain sad. i am more outraged by situation like that, not really judging people who have done it but by lack of awareness out there while taking such decisions. councelling should be offered before people reach these decisions and more awareness brought in. making people aware of consequences and helping them to reach decision that would make the situation less negative. sorry for going on another topic really, but as i said, i find those cases of underdogs, unloved babies more hurtful to me that a fight for a baby that is loved. suffering, but taken care of, loved whether you would call the fight for her life torture or not.
this baby's situation is by far different than yours. this baby has been in the hopital her whole life. shes never experienced the things other babies have. the communication there is non-existant. the parents can talk to the baby, but it would still be one sided. the abortion issue is off topic, but theres really nothing you can do about it. there will be abortions, legal or not. whether its in a safe facility done professionally, or a back alley done by unsterilized equiptment. you cant force a woman to be pregnant.
goso-You hit it right on the head. Good job. (aka you explained it well, just in case the English doesn't go through correctly.) I'll type a more meaningful post when I'm actually awake and when it's not 4:00AM.
a baby or even a child in their first five/six years of infancy who is hospitalized for an illness does not realise that what is happening to them does not happen to all children. I can sympathise with the parents because when you are in that situation all you can believe in is that one of the medicines that they are testing on your child is the one that works or the one that at least starts controlling the illness so you have a time gap in which you hope reasearch will make a breakthrough. I suppose these parents have been looking at the worst outcome since day one and feel the longer their child hangs on, the more chance there is of her survival and could you really give up fighting for your childs life if you thought there was even the minutest chance of them pulling through
pyromaniak, i have never said a woman should be forced to be pregnant at any point. if you are aware and educated about taking responsibility that you know enough in the first place not to get pregnant to put yourself in not wanted situation, what i was saying is there needs to be more education and support so this situation is prevented. i am not into forcing anybody into anything, do not put it into my mouth. on number of occasions i have made a point that nobody is that baby, so how can you be so dead sure to know what the baby is going thru, you simply cant, its only your guessing, your own conclusions. i work with sick people and they do communicate whatever age. having seen babies in premature units, not my own, i could also clearly see that they are not veggie stage either to be unaware. the baby might not experience the stuff healthy babies do, doesnt make their experience less valid, who gives validity to reality? mind. what is reality? youd wander each one of us has one. so what is real? life is not black and white, and you can only ever be yourself, you cannot be me to know how i feel or what my experience is or that babies or anybody elses, neither you are even there with the baby to at least to be in positition of some security of knowledge of what is the baby going thru.
well it goes both ways hun. you dont know what the baby thinks either, if it communicates or not, if it understands what its going through. the only thing in this discussion is what are opinions and assumptions are. we arent debating for the fact of right or wrong, its our own opinions. okay? okay. also, i stated that people will have abortions no matter what, even with education on it. when i said "you", i meant that as in anyone who would try to stop it, not you literally.
pyromaniak, you gotta be god to have a pattent on right and wrong. i do agree i dont know about the baby's feelings which is the point i am endlessly making, but i am not the one shouting that the parents are selfish and what they should and should not do. i am not claiming that my idea that education would solve the problem entirely, i am realistic enough, but it would help and that is what matters, alcoholics anonymous dont turn all their cases into success but they do help those that want to be helped and make some difference. at least one doesnt sit on once backside and complains about the state of the world, one does something about it, comprehende? one doesnt go around telling people what to do, one gives them support to reach the best they can choose for themselves. you dont drag somebody to the moon, you can only point a finger where it is. its up to the individual to make the choice. we are here to seek freedom and compassion. not judgements and playing right or wrong. i feel for the baby as strong as for the parents, but will not shout what they should do, they are in that situation, not me, if i were there, i would be there to give my support, not my opinions. what is my mind compared to a question of life and death? its a heart grabbing and heart requiring situation. and these things are to be looked at from the point of heart not head.
what on earth are you talking about.. :wth: whatev. aaaanyways, to the part that actually does make sense.. okay, youre going way too deep into this. this is supposed to be a discussion or debate on what your opinion about this is. you have constantly been going farther and farther away from that. by the way, never at anytime during this discussion did i shout. i dont know how you implied that, since, infact, this is the internet
sorry, i kind of didnt consider you might not get abstraction. its kind of far fetched to say parents are torturing the baby! maybe whole community of doctors should be locked up for torturing patients by causing them pain to get better. maybe the families should be ignored and the decisions should be only done by authorities (lets welcome the police state!) thats the conclusions of your opinions like it or not. if its just a word game to you with no emotions involved then should you pick a thread that is not serious as serious topics do involve also emotions. if you want to discuss serious discussion with no emotions behind it, then it comes out flat, i dont feel you in respect of what you feel about the situation of the baby except judments, yet i feel you that everytime somebody might be differing to your opinion you call them insane or you refrain to ping pong like you are doing with me now. i have expressed myself enough and would end it here. good luck to goso 88 & others who has actually contribute quite a lot of good points here with great intelligence and insights!
Pyro--what she/he's saying is ... 1) She is not claiming that she knows the baby's feelings. 2) She is not claiming she knows the parents enough to judge them. 3) She is not saying we can force women to be pregnant. 4) And she is not claiming education will prevent all women from developing unwanted children, but she says it will atleast help someone. 5)One doesn't go around telling people what to do; you can only give them support (with the pointing at the moon, not dragging them there anaolgy.) 6) We should show more compassion, less judgement. I dunno. It made sense to me, in meaning and relevance, because a lot of the points applied to this topic, and for those that didn't, she was responding to your ideas on abortion and your response to her ideas. She was expressing her opinion on this matter. Going too deep into this? Maybe she wants to dig deeper, but whether or not thats even true, the fact is, she was just expressing her opinions, and she connected this with something deeper behind the subject matter. She didn't just pull it out of thin air and throw it in there, so you should be able to see the connection rather than saying what this discussion is supposed to be about and not supposed to be about. I think she's smart enough to know that you can't literally shout over the internet. So she must have been speaking figuratively. @ iamrightthererightnow: Correct me if I'm wrong. Also, sorry if I confused your gender. @ everyone: Sorry if my explaining other people's posts gets annoying... I don't mean to insult anybody
she was getting to the point where she was saying how abortion is wrong. i dont see how that is not getting away from the original subject. oh, and the so-called "abstractions" were really not necessary in a debative conversation. the fact that she moves from one statement to another was very frustrating and annoying to read.
I like to think I'm a part of that group. To goso: It helps to have someone explaining the posts, as sometimes comprehension isn't too high, especially on my part. To pyro: Abortion has the same implications as this topic, for the most part. The choice on whether or not a baby should live or not is the same as a fetus. Sure, morally there are a lot of different issues, but in essence, it is just a valid connection that can be made when it comes to whether or not this baby should live. About how she moves from topic to topic, I think it's fine that she does that as long as it can contribute to the whole picture. Seeing as this is less of a debate (although I have used the word constantly due to my non-omniscient power over the english language) rather than an expressing of opinions or just a discussion. In a debate, there are set sides and you must argue explicitly for the side that you favor, while here, it's more of a Socratic Seminar, just a group of people to throw ideas at. With that, you get replies, agreement, or otherwise. At least that's how I would like to see this as. "We're discussing like friends, not debating like enemies." Sure it's from GTA: VC but it summarizes what I believe at this time. And in a place like this, I don't think there's a way to 'get too deep into this.'
abortion has nothing to do with this. this baby is not a fetus. abortion is when you want the fetus to die because it is unwanted, not because it cannot live anymore.
You don't have to think. You should know Who decides what's necessary in this debate or how deep you should go into this? As for moving from one statement to another...well, like I said, you have what we call natural progression. She didn't just pull her statements randomly out of thin air; she was replying to your post, replying to others' post, making connections, illustrating a point, elaborating. And if Xero, iamrighthererightnow, and I can see the connection between abortion and this topic...well, either we're all looney or there's something to this after all. But is that all there is to abortion and this topic? Try to go just a little deeper and make other connections. For example, the baby and fetus both have no say in whether they should die or live. The parents are making the decision. That's one obvious connection I see. I'm being redundant here--but making connections involve going deeper than whats at face value. Take a white dove, for example. You can call it a bird, or you can say it stands for peace. (If you'll notice, I just made a natural progression here to illustrate my point).
We're just all loony, goso. :whistle: Abortion and this situation are very similar. Take the implication that the parents are going to have to live with the baby/fetus not surviving, and having to wonder 'what would he/she have been like? would he/she of like this kind of food? would? would?' Or that yet again, humans are wielding the power that God or whomever diety you choose wanted to keep away from us.