Discussion in 'Serious Chat' started by Zakrisk, Jun 27, 2006.
Bullshit. Blatant lie. Completely untrue. Man-made fairy tale. False. Take your pick.
Take your pick is the best option Mr. Admin.
Again don't believe in anything, even in science...you are looking at things way too much in the Black/White while in real life its many shades of grey.
Religion has done some good things too, you can't deny that. And who said its entirely based on a lie? Jesus could have lived and the story merely exagerrated his legend. I don't think it was meant to be used as a way of controlling people, I think humans found a way to exploit the Bible as they do all things.
And science. When is it the saviour of our race? Each day we get more addicted and attached and reliant upon it. It has done some wonderous things but all things have a price and is it the kind we are willing to make? Our civilization hasn't progressed much over thelast little while. A lot of ways to make our lives easier but in terms of the way we think mainstream culture is dumbing us down. Science is based on logic and math, and with those economics models we are being turned into numbers in a sales projection formula. Is that the answer? I don't think so anyways.
You can't prove that it is any of those things, and you're kind of bashing someone's beliefs. That is extremely offensive to people who are very dedicated to Christianity.
Well Todd apparently knows the truth or has convinced himself that Christianity is 100% false and comprised solely of lies and makebelieved stories which I believe is a shame.
I am a Christian and while his words are offensive; his views do coincide with a lot of other peoples views as well. In Christianity there is no middle ground. Its not a middle of the road path. We believe what the Bible says to be 100% fact and that fact alone causes so many people to have issues with us. I mean sure I can't prove everything in the Bible to be true because I don't have the time and because some of it can't be explained by a human. I do believe that if you really have faith God will reveal himself to you. Anyways I don't mean to go on forever... I know I can't convince you that the Bible is true if you already have closed your mind off to this possibility. I just hope you'll reconsider at some point in your life.
Well how much have you actually looked into it? Have you looked into all of the other possibilities? Have you looked at some of the supposed flaws?
There's some things you can get to coincidentally fit with the way the Bible explains things proven by science, but when it contradicts itself in the next chapter and says something different no longer proven by science, it gets you thinking.
I mean we know that there was a man named Jesus, and people followed him. We also know that he was crucified and his tomb was missing simply because it's was Jews at the time recorded, and they were held really high back then. They thought the body was stolen instead of crucified.
Then about 500 people around there saw him alive again. They all told the same story supposedly.
The thing is, I don't know of any source other than the Bible that people actually did see Jesus. Plus, there were all of those other self-claimed Messiahs all over at the time, and people were claiming they were doing the same things.
When you look at history, and how it fits with the Bible, it doesn't. Jesus living is just 1/4 of the story. You need evidence to prove that he did everything else claimed he did, and you just don't have it.
Everything said in the old testament can't be proven by historical records, and there are so many weird confusing parts that don't make any sense at all that makes it hard to believe in.
When I started this journey thing of mine, I was pretty much convinced that Christianity was a crackpot story. However, I wanted to know exactly why other people followed it and believed it. I went to Pastors and I questioned their faith. I shot at them with the questions that people are asking, and they gave me some books to read.
When I started reading these books I was blown away at the amount of facts we have for Christianity. Then the more I looked into it I found some of the sources they were using were bad sources. Some of the people interviewed were saying the same things they'd be proven wrong.
I looked at all the points for Christianity, and then I looked into the flaws in the points. There are very few Creationists and scientists who believe in the Bible. The majority of the science community don't believe in the Bible simply because of the things wrong with it. Alot of people believe in Intelligent Design, but not all of the people believe the Bible explains that Intelligent Designer.
You look at the flaws in the Bible, you look at how history really did happen, and you look at the little amount of evidence the Bible has to backup it's claim, and you start to question it big time.
Not believing in the Bible, Quran, etc. gives you the chance to think about things without a worry. It gives you the chance to believe in causes, do things with your family, enjoy the pleasures of life, and build morals you believe in without worrying if you'll be sent to hell for believing in something you truely believe is right.
I was wondering lately if you could be a Christian but not believe the Bible is really true. Christians are followers of Christ. Jesus gave alot of very good points, and had very good morals. Could you be a follower of Christ and his morals, and not believe in God? I'm sure you could, but what would you be?
I respect your views Zak and thank you for explaining yourself so thoroughly. To answer your last question. You can not be a follower of Christ and be a Christian. In the same way you can not believe in the rest of the Bible except Christ and be a Christian. Either Jesus was who he said he was and that is the Son of God or he was a lunatic liar. The Bible has over 60 authors and over 300 references prophecies telling about the Messiah.
"Prophecies of the OT Fulfilled in Jesus Christ:
There have been described in the Old Testament 300 prophecies of the first coming of the Messiah and 500 of the second coming, all of then made hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus and fulfilled to the letter in Jesus Christ, the Messiah.
George Heron, a French mathematician, calculated that the odds of one man fulfilling only 40 of those prophecies are 1 in 10 to the power of 157. That is a 1 followed by 157 zeros. Compare it to this; your odds on winning the state lottery are 14 followed by 6 zeros.
Another mathematician, Dr. Peter S. Ruckman, claims the odds of being fulfilled only 60 of them by the only person who claimed to be the Son of God, and who died on a "tree" on Calvary, and who rose the 3rd day are astronomical!... not just one in one trillion, but one out of ten to the 895th power. That is a one over a one followed by 895 zeros. "
So, Zak based on the fact that Jesus did fulfill everyone of the prophecies of the coming Messiah in the old testament it is the Bible in fact that proves he was the Son of God not just his own claims and actions. So if you don't believe in the Bible, Jesus was not the son of God at all.
Just some things to think about. Hope you find it interesting.
I don't find that interesting at all. What source other than the Bible do you have that Jesus fulfilled those prophecies? How do you even know the people who wrote the Gospels were who they claimed? We don't have any evidence to support that.
Anybody could look back in the Bible at the prophecies the Messiah was supposed to fulfill.
It means nothing. Nobody even knows if he did ANY of those things. I could write that I did all of those prophecies right now. 200 years from now someone sees what I wrote. How would they know that I really didn't? It's not good evidence, I'm sorry.
Ahh I can't quote many "facts" to you right now without taking time to research old manuscripts. Bottom line is thousands of people saw Jesus in his lifetime and there are many books written by historians at the time who arent even mentioned in the Bible backing up these claims. I can't prove to someone who doesnt want to believe that what I believe is true because a lot of Christianity is based on faith. I'm sorry if I make my case seem weak as I don't claim to be an expert on documents at the time. I guess I just really do see God and his greatness in the world around me. I do find my life to have more of a purpose and I do have more joy in my life since I started following God.... I can't prove to you that Christianity is what it says it is. And I'm not going to judge you for not believing so ya I'm done arguing and I'm sorry my last post didn't interest you.
I know of one. Josephus. He didn't even say Jesus did what he claimed, he just said what people believed he did.
Beliefs???What shit.Would you believe if i come up to you and say i revieved a dead man?or that i stopped a storm with the words"Calm down".i wish people in New Orleans could do that last year.
Those miracles are totally impossible.the bible has a large number of discrepencies.
Abraham lived upto the age of 90-100.Wow people these days with all the modern medical facilities barely live upto 80-85 but this man lived in the hot desert upto a 100?How would you explain that???the bible my friend was written in about 3-4hundred AD so during it passage through word-of-mouth people could have easily manipulated it and made people believe it.No one is doubting that Jesus existed but that he was a "miracle boy" is pure bullshit.he was no god but a mortal man who told people to lead good lives.you try to reason out for yourself whether those miracles are possible or not.
You should read the Bible before you say stuff like that. Some of your facts are wrong.
Plus, the age thing is definitely explained in the Bible.
we'll see what?clarify please.don't tell me when you are gonna perform a miracle.thatd be something to watch.
Then you'd probably want her to tell you when she's going to perform a miracle.
Everytime I've seen you put down Christianity as "bullshit" and things you don't have evidence to back it up, or you're using the wrong information.
I'm not even entirely sure I believe it, but I've atleast done tons of research on the subject. You need to look into things more, not just use things you've heard from some guy once. I know you didn't get your evidence from the Bible, because it's not the Bible everyone else is reading.
thats right i;ve never read the bible.i'm not pointing fingers at just christianity its against all the religions.all of them have some unscientific events taking place.
I agree with you on that.
It's funny. I made somewhat of a similar blog entry today, about something very similar to this.
This is very good research you have done. And I also question Jesus' existence. Evidently, he was a person. Whether he was the Son of God and a human incarnate of God, if there is a God, I do not know. Whether he was resurrected or just killed and not forgotten, I do not know. It's all a mystery to me.
I believe in most scientific theorys, evolution, big bang, everything. I am Greek Orthodox and such, but there is no true knowledge of whether Jesus was a human-like incarnate of God, or just a good person who lived and died for his beliefs. The only evidence of his miracles is the Bible, but how do we know what is fact from fiction? We don't. It's all a mystery to me.
I wouldn't say I am an atheist (although I once claimed to be), but I am not too sure if there is a God, or if there truly was a Jesus Christ, or if there is a higher power at all. I don't know if the human race is alone in this universe, or if there are other civilizations out there, more advanced or still catching up. Life is a mystery yet to be solved.
My blog entry basically was about questioning. Why do people choose to believe in God, or certain Gods and prophets and such? Is it just so we can get along without questioning everything. Questioning is what has gotten us so far. Striving for the answer is what aspires us to live. They killed Socrates for his questioning, and some of us are being criticized for ours. There are wars over religion. And it's odd. Wars about one side questioning another side for their lack of questioning (their belief). It's odd, because questioning has gotten us so far. We're looking deeper into the universe, because we're asking what's out there, and we're finding out more and more about this never-ending universe. If we all didn't have beliefs and just went by fact, there'd be no complication. No wars. Nothing.
One of the big mysteries is what you're talking about. Jesus' existence, his resurrection, God's existence. It'll take us time, but we're getting there. And it's people like you, with your aspiration for knowledge and reconciliation with what is true and what is not that gets us farther and closer to the answer.
It's crazy how far I've come in my journey since starting this thread. When I started it I had some research done, and tons more to do. Now I've done alot more.
The thing is, this area is such a conflicting one. You can find tons of evidence for Christianity, look somewhere else and find all the points against it. Since I'm more of a skeptic at this point, I'm trying to remain neutral now and then make a final judgement when I think one can be made. I'm not there yet, but I'm not going to give up.
I'm not going to follow either side until we know. Right now it's looking more towards the Bible is not true. I've looked at many sources and alot of the points I had known and thought were true that were for Christianity have been proven wrong scientifically, and some logically.
One of the weakest arguments I come across are those who say: "Well I know it's true because I can feel it. I just know." Well, I've seen Christians say that, Mormons, Muslims, Jews, etc. You just can't use that as an argument, because I don't know of one religion that doesn't say that.
Oh well, I'm still interviewing, reading, researching anything I can. What's crazy is I could go speak at a church and give tons of points for Christianity, and people would take it in and never question their faith again, and I could also tell them all of the flaws and questions in it if I wanted to.
Such a long confusing area that I want resolved in my head, and I'll continue to look.
I have to commend you, Zak, for keeping this debate civil and on-track. Usually religious debates like this can become quite heated, but everything has been pretty cool between everyone. I'll attribute that to you not overreacting to someone questioning what you're saying.
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