Sorry but I don't see this response as being any better. You are essentially telling him to not express his opinion while letting others say as they please, no matter how negative they my come off on others. His response comes out of disappointment and for valid reasons too. If you wanna suggest the idea of avoiding potential flame wars, I'd start by looking at the foundation of the problem which would be the negative backlash LT is receiving, it should be evident that people would oppose this idea because it is an LP fanbase site so there are bound to be people who thoroughly enjoy the album. This topic revolves around LPU 13 and doesn't completely have to involve LT a whole lot, especially if its used to make an opinion which is redundantly stated in a negative matter.
man, Mike definitely knows how to fucking boss as fucking music. but as a Linkin Park sound, i'd have to say no.
Primo is a pretty cool demo...but the "why didn't they release this version instead of I'll Be Gone"/"this is one of the greatest LP songs ever" comments are borderline delusional. The chorus on this version is the only part of it that's on par with the final version, and even then, it's a toss-up as to which version's chorus is actually better. Had they released this version when it was originally recorded in 2010, it would have easily been the worst track on A Thousand Suns, and if they had left this version as-is and released it on Living Things, it would have been in the bottom two or three tracks on that album as well. VERY glad they overhauled this one.
So if it's a negative opinion it should never be spoken. I'm sorry, but saying others shouldn't post a negative opinion isn't an opinion in the same way so your accusation of double standards is inheretly moot. I said nothing about his opinion on LT. What I did say was that he shouldnt be complaining about OTHER PEOPLES OPINIONS because he didn't like them. And yes. LT is entirley relevant because we are talking about an LT demo. So you are also blatantly wrong there too. Given the person's mature reply, I would say my attempts at not starting a flame war were sucsessfull. You are the one being the instigator here. People disliking LT is not "the foundation of the problem". That isn't even close to being a problem. That is people expressing their opinion, in an entirley relevant, on topic manner. Your complaints are not valid. End of discussion.
Can we just stop bickering in this thread? There's so much bitterness and bellyaching in here. Just knock it off already.
Believe what you may, but your statements in themselves contradict each other. With that, I've spoken my mind and won't bother responding to this idle conversation. My apologies Derek.
You do not get to say something like that, then walk away as if you "won" the argument. That's an incredibly childish way to respond to someone telling you to knock it off-- it undermines your apology in many ways. Though I do myself apologise to Derek. (My points would also have been better made if I weren't typing all this at a phone where it's a pain in the ass to edit anything to be less convoluted and agressive. Sorry guys.)
I've listened to Primo a lot, and something feels odd about the chorus. I just feel that it really isn't a Linkin Park chorus. Not really sure why, it just doesn't feel right. Idk I may be right or wrong. If Linkin Park really did stick Primo in instead of I'll Be Gone, it wouldn't fit with the album. "Well then just change the album to that style." Well then you have A Thousand Suns part 2, which isn't really innovating anything if they repeat the same style twice in a row. Btw if you listen closely you can hear the acoustic guitar part in I'll Be Gone. It's really drowned out in the Chorus and Bridge, sadly.
I didn't exactly criticize anybody, and I kept my reply rather short and sweet because I didn't feel like regurgitating the 3-paragraph post I made about the song over at LPLive, but I'll just go ahead and add something I say every year around this time: There will always be a certain group of people who will proclaim any demo/unreleased track Linkin Park releases as the second coming of Jesus, solely because it's new music to them. These are the same people who tend to flip out when an album like Living Things is released and rate every single track on it a 9 out of 10 or better, and then 3 months later they don't even like half of the album anymore. New music will always trump familiar music in the minds of some people. And that's fine, most people tend to come to their senses sooner or later. I just can't help but roll my eyes at the lack of objective reviews any time Linkin Park releases something (which is why I go out of my way to objectively review just about everything they do!). There are so many things about this demo that keep it from being album-worthy...the Mike/Chester doubled vocals in the verses aren't in tune with each other, the verse lyrics are vastly inferior to the ones that appeared in the final version, the dramatic tom fills at the start of the outro aren't in sync with the song (they were played slightly too fast), and the outro goes on for far longer than it really needs to. And looking at it in comparison to the rest of the band's output from the last couple albums...how many mid-tempo, moody songs do they really need? What would this track have brought to the table in this state that wasn't already found in songs like Burning in the Skies, Iridescent, Roads Untraveled, Castle of Glass, Powerless, Robot Boy, etc.? There aren't too many songs from the past two albums that actually qualify as bona fide rock songs, and I'll Be Gone is one of the few that do. I'm not the biggest I'll Be Gone fan there is, I think I rated it about a 7.5 out of 10 when it came out, but that's a hell of a lot better than the 4 out of 10 I'd have given this version if it actually appeared on an album... Primo is cool...as a demo. And it stayed a demo for a reason.
That epic synth in the outro Definitely the stand out moment of the track to me, which you didn't mention at all. Seriously, I don't think Primo, as it stands in this form, could have ended up on a record. But with better lyrics, and some of the mistakes you noted being corrected, I'm sure I would have liked this more than both RU or BITS for example.
I don't think a lot of people say it's good because they think it should replace I'll Be Gone just like that. Granted, it has quite a lot of flaws, but considering it's a demo, it has the potential to be a really good song if they finish it off in this direction. I'm getting the vibe from this demo and I love it.
Astat, my hat's off to you. Awesome way to put it. I probably made my opinion in the shoutbox or somewhere else (cause I can't find it on this thread ) but as for myself I try to avoid comparisons between demos and final songs, actually I never did that, even if they are almost exactly the same (ITE, Esaul or Forgotten for example). As a demo sure this song has its fair share of flaws because after all, it's rough and unfinished. But even when I dig the structure and the melody of this song, I still like the final version of IBG a lot, actually it's one of the songs that I enjoy singing the most, so IBG does its job pretty well with me. What I want to say with this is that I try to avoid rushed conclusions like the ones you mentioned. Sure, I did say on the very first page the demo was amazing, but at least in no point across the thread I compared it to the final song. If anything, I think this song, as it is (of course, a polished version) could've ended up as an ATS b-side at most. The demo had obvious potential and that's why the band didn't give up on it and gave it a second chance, but when you think about it, in the time it was created there is no way it could've made its way into ATS.
I wouldn't necessarily suggest that Primo should replace I'll Be Gone, but I really wish that they had kept more FROM Primo while finalizing that mix. I really like the texture and feel of it. It's not in Tweety Bird range for Chester. I completely get what Astat's saying about the verse vocals not lining p, but.. it's a demo. I have zero doubt in my mind that if they had stuck with Primo for a while and really nailed it down, that kind of stuff wouldn't be an issue. I mean, Burning In The Skies has three different vocal layers just for the verses. I just imagine the band writing like they do, and then, "Oh shit, we have a band meeting coming up soon, let's throw a rough harmony in so the guys can at least hear those notes. I kind of feel like the final version of that would almost have the texture of Castle of Glass's verses. But I would totally suggest the newer lyrics over what's there--and change the chorus to something that's a little bit more determined each time it comes in, kind of like Breaking The Habit. I love Primo, but I get the feeling that it's because I'm hearing what it COULD have been--which kind of makes me feel like they got lazy writing I'll Be Gone. I'll Be Gone is a GREAT song, for sure, I'm just a huge fan of the different juxtapositions and polyrhythms that came from Primo (for example, the song is in 4/4, but that first guitar comes in playing a dotted eighth note rhythm in 3/4). So, yeah. Great points by all. I still kind of think Primo has an edge over I'll Be Gone, but honestly, it doesn't matter,because that advantage is chalked up to what I hear when I listen to the song more than what's actually in the song. If there's any sort of disappointment on my end, that's really it. And that's not even a bad thing. I would imagine that they did Primo for ATS, then let it go for the next one, and then as Living Things started to take shape (with the whole firecracker thing), they adjusted Primo accordingly. Which isn't a bad thing at all--I just prefer the more prog / polyrhythm thing from Primo.