Do you think LP's sound on MTM should have more electronic?

Discussion in 'Linkin Park Chat' started by DisturbedOne98, Aug 29, 2007.

  1. #21
    DisturbedOne98

    DisturbedOne98 Well-Known Member

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    Well first of all I definitely admire both of your lengthy posts. I just feel throughout this entire debate, I'm getting labeled as a 'close minded fan.' I don't like that. I'm far from that. I full-heartedly agree that one of the most important things in a band is creativity. This will separate a good band from a bad one IMO. But I just can't digest the fact that MTM is really all that creative. It definitely broke all barriers people thought the band had. I admire that. Not totally my style though.

    Now, I apologize if you had to repeat yourself about the problems with Meteora, it was more of a rhetorical question on my part. Again, I agree that the album didn't have the best lyrics, but how it can be labeled terrible is beyond me. Hell, the song Session was nominated for a Grammy! Breaking the Habit was also awesome. The drum and bass influence made for a very cool beat to the song and it had solid lyrics. The anime inspired video was also a very cool idea also. In comparison we have WID and Bleed it Out. I thought WID was a bad video, very cookie cutter. Bleed it Out was very interesting, but it didn't really go anywhere.

    You also mentioned that if LP created an HT3 it would be career suicide. It very well could have been. But stepping so far out of their sound into something else could have been also. Luckily it wasn't. Their sound is more generic than ever now though. Now that's something that's not debatable. Making a HT3 is not something I want. Maybe there is some confusion here? I don't want a repeat, rather an evolution. They could still reinvent themselves but still retain that LP sound. Again words were put into my mouth when I mentioned that LP could revive the rap-rock genre. I didn't say I would want that (hence the title of my topic being 'electronic') but it could have happened.

    My age shouldn't really make a difference but I'm not a child. I only could hope for a mature debate. Again, thinking I'm labeled as close minded or living in the past really bothers me. I could only hope and pray for evolution in a band. At least we all can agree on one thing, we all love the band still no matter what.
     
  2. #22
    Dean

    Dean LPA Addict LPA Addict

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    Likewise, Joe's turntable work wasn't that impresive.
     
  3. #23
    DisturbedOne98

    DisturbedOne98 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, you're right. I did over exaggerate a little about that. I do believe Joe's style really adds to their songs though, which makes the songs feel more special IMO.
     
  4. #24
    Mark

    Mark Canadian Beauty LPA Administrator

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    You're referring to singular songs on the album. I've already said that "Breaking The Habit" was one of the better songs on the album in terms of lyrics and musicianship. But you know what? It's the most creative song on the entire album: the only song that would fit on MTM. In fact, exchange "Given Up" with "Breaking The Habit" and you've got two albums with songs that suit each other better.

    Videos don't make a difference. We're talking about musicianship and lyrics.

    But they had the courage to take that leap into the unknown. There's a difference between your two examples, however. There was "certainty" that they would never be respected as musicians if they had made a HT3. There was "uncertainty" in completely revamping their sound to suit the times and push their creative envelope. I highly respect the band for choosing the route they did.

    You cannot evolve the rap-rock sound. They've already tried to evolve their rap-rock sound (see: Meteora), and they failed miserably at coming up with a musically respectable album.

    It wouldn't of happened. Rap-rock is dead. All they would be doing is beating a dead horse.

    Age does make a difference, because the lyrics were written for a specific age group; the teenagers who could relate to their album when they bought it in 2000. I grew up from then until 2003, but it seems like their lyrics regressed and they were talking to the me from 2000. I also listened to a hell of a lot of bands since that point, and I began to get an understanding of what good musicianship was. There was little-to-none shown. I'm not saying busting out a solo every song is a great thing, but you couldn't tag the phrase "musical creatvity" on much from Meteora.

    Using age as an example is not a put-down, I'm just saying it seems like the lyrics for Meteora were written for a specific age group, and thus why some relate to and like the lyrics, while others see right through them.

    I just don't see how anyone can peg this album as a bad move by the band. They can no longer be pigeon-holed as a rap-rock band, but rather a band capable of anything. The possibilities are very exciting.
     
  5. #25
    DisturbedOne98

    DisturbedOne98 Well-Known Member

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    Well all I can say is I totally understand and respect your points. I guess I just expected something different for MTM. I don't think it's a bad move by the band at all, I just don't dig the sound as much as I would want. Nonetheless, like you said the possibilities for the future are very exciting.
     
  6. #26
    Colonel Sanders

    Colonel Sanders Well-Known Member

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    dude mark, you can be my lawyer any day man. Holy fuck you're convincing. I have to agree with you and everything you have just stated because ive said it before to my friends and people that listen to the album and says it sucks balls.
    MTM is really quite revolutionary when you realize the in depth messages that linkin park display. I should post my analysis/review of the album on here. MtM is nothing like they've done before and it feels like fresh air in a smog filled industry.
     
  7. #27
    Tim

    Tim My perversion power is accumulating LPA Super Member

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    Meteora was just LP preaching to the converted. I don't think they sat in a room and said "lets make songs that teenagers would like." I think it had more to do with "if it broke don't fix it." I would counter the claim that Meteora was a bad album. Whilst the lyricism didn't evolve very much
    I still think they wrote a good, just not great album. With that said MTM
    is leagues better than Meteora could have ever aspired to be, so I guess their 2-1 as far as I'm concerned (thats not counting Reanimation
    or Collision Course).
     
  8. #28
    The_Cool_Cow

    The_Cool_Cow Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you that the album was a good move in that they cant be pigeon-holed into one genre anymore. I also agree that, yes, the possibilities for the future are very exciting. But, in my opinion, MTM really wasnt that great. I found a lot of it to be really generic and uncreative. Leave Out All The Rest just sounds like a radio-friendly ballad to me. And Shadow of the Day is basically what U2 would sound like if Chester was the singer.

    The whole album wasnt bad, In Pieces, The Little Things Give You Away, and Bleed It Out were all great songs. But overall, I was very dissapointed by MTM.

    Im hoping that this was more of an experimenting album, where they toyed with a bunch of different sounds. Hopefully they'll chose one and refine it on the next album.
     
  9. #29
    Mark

    Mark Canadian Beauty LPA Administrator

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    The lyrics didn't evolve whatsoever. It was a complete regression.

    The "if it's broke don't fix it" approach is the main reason the album was such a letdown for many.

    Blasphemy. The band pushed many more boundaries than they ever have before. Who cares if a song sounds a tad bit like U2? I'd be psyched to be compared to that band.

    The best thing about MTM is that the band abandoned their previously established formula for writing songs and came out with something different and unpredictable. It's not a perfect album, but it leaves many more avenues to be explored.
     
  10. #30
    Louis

    Louis Message me if you need to talk. We love you all. LPA Team

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    I agree. 'Minutes to Midnight' was most certainly not a perfect album when speaking in generalities. If anything, it's really just sort of decent. This was a transitional effort. I doubt it's how Linkin Park will sound on future albums.

    I think Derek said it best: Their next album will be their finest hour. This record is most certainly not perfect, but it's beyond anything Linkin Park has ever written and it shows that Linkin Park is perfectly capable of getting outside of their comfort zone and writing something new, different, and unpredictable. They've learned to do this, so I think that the albums to come will show Linkin Park at their best.
     
  11. #31
    heshboy

    heshboy Well-Known Member

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    Let me give it a go in this topic. M2M is a horrible album by a band(Drums, Guitars, bass, mic, turntables). You have all of those instruments at your disposal and you come up with a dull, generic, poppy album? That is a load of crap. The best song on M2M is "No More Sorrow" and that's only because of the lead guitar part during the verses. The Ryhthem guitar on M2M is average, and most of the Lead Guitar parts on the album are generic and lazy. No skill is shown. The solos are perfectly un-inspireed. The drums are not that good. The vocals are slow, and winey. It's like being tugged at by an infant for over 40mins, and wanting to smack him for the annoyance.

    Chesters vocals did not evolve, or were not unique like we knw they can be. Listen to "No Sun Today" and you know what he is capable of.
    Mike Shinoda taking the choice of not rapping much took the album down badly. You sit there listening to the album to do something exciting or new, and it sits there like doorstop. Rapping could of changed this up a little bit. The song progression of the tracks were horrible. The music(not lyrics) was awful. "Bleed It Out" went good untill I heard the "I Bleed It Out" phrase for the hundreth time. The guitars stayed the same, the drum pattern stayed the same, and the bass stayed the same. Where was Joe? He could of made things interesting? M2M was a crappy Rock Album, it didn't even rock, it slowley limped to the finish of nothing spectacular.

    The band didn't show us what they were capable of. They didn't show us that they were more talented than Hybrid Theory which didn't take much talent to create. Hybrid Theory took creative minds. Meteora was garbage save a few songs. M2M shows me that the guys in Linkin Park may be musicians, but not really talented ones. They need their backs up against the wall to be creative again. They have been in the mainstream for too long, and lost that hunger they had before Hybrid Theory.

    I know now that when the 4th LP from Linkin Park comes out that I will DL it first. If I like it then I will buy it. I haven't lost all hope in the band. I just recognize that M2M was not a good Rock album by musicians.

    I also disagree with Rap-Rock being dead. Rap-Rock wasn't dead, and still isn't. You guys let the media determine your thoughts these days. How long as Hip-Hop been around? A long time. How about Rock? A long time. So why can't a fusion of both genres live forever too? It can, but only if stayed fresh, and bands re-invente the genre. Linkin Park did not keep it fresh with Meteora, and all of a sudden people were hating on them. We'll duh don't press play, and then re-wind your careers.

    You must be creative. Limp Bizkit is one of the reasons rap-rock is fading, but still not dead. Fred Durst was always trying to creat the new "Nookie". He tried to ride the wave on the same BS the band did before, and we see how that turned out, and bands were immitating Limp, and Linkin. There was no new innovation to rap-rock. None by the big bands that flagshipped it, and none by the little copycats out there. Any music can live forever as long as people keep it real, and keep it creative. You must be true to yourself, and the music.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2007
  12. #32
    Tim

    Tim My perversion power is accumulating LPA Super Member

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    As Mark explained before, you can't reinvent rap-metal. You just can't. The closest it ever got to reinvention was LP, and that was far from what I would
    call a reinvention. Face it, rap-metal is dead because it was a tired and stale genre of music that just couldn't evolve. It wasn't for lack of trying though,
    dammit there was some good effort, but it all fell short.

    If you don't like MTM, that's certainly your opinion and I'm not going to argue
    that, but you have to admire the balls it took for the band to do something different that could have possibly ended their carers, but has shown to be a huge success. Bands need to evolve and grow. That's hard to do when you play in such a limiting genre like rap-metal.
     
  13. #33
    heshboy

    heshboy Well-Known Member

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    Why can't you reinvent something? Who says it's impossible. Maybe you just can't see it till some creative minds come together and do it. I admire the balls it took for LP to try something different. What they tried wasn't new at all. Maybe new for them as a band, but it's all been done before. Shadow of The Day = With Or Without You. And most of the album is decent rock. Nothing was spectacular or special like on past albums. They don't have to be rap-rock for me to like them, but they also must not suck for me to like that. I'm not a fan of generic music when I know the people in the band are so creative that they can almost do anything. M2M was a complete failure. You can't look at the album sales and say that the album was not a failure. It has only sold this much so far because of the band name itself. If you look now the album is falling on the billboard. When horrible hip-hop artist like Kanye and 50 drop their albums M2M will fall even more. Even if M2M sells well by going like 3-4 PLat. It wouldn't suprise me, because Nickelback has gone 6 Plat on their latest album, and that album is crap.
     
  14. #34
    Tim

    Tim My perversion power is accumulating LPA Super Member

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    I never said it was innovative or anything, it was just a new direction for them.
    As far as album sales not being a barometer for quality, that's completely true. In this case though, I think it's different. If you've been to one of LPs recent shows, you'd see that most of their fans have grown up. These aren't kids who bought an album 'cause they like a song they heard on the radio,
    these are real fans. With p2p downloading being the norm, you can't say you were surprised when you bought an album and didn't like it. So I think its safe to say that many of the people who bought MTM (if not most of the people) liked the album. Just because you think MTM was a "complete failure," doesn't make it the gospel truth.
     
  15. #35
    Jordan

    Jordan Secret Robot

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    rap-metal or whatever just needs a band to come along that are musically intelligent, not arseholes, have good lyrics, are doing something different and appeal to both metal-heads and radio-heads alike. Seeing as metal-heads are the ones that usually play instruments and form bands (sorry about being steriotipical, not that that really is) and radio-heads are the ones that make things popular.
     
  16. #36
    heshboy

    heshboy Well-Known Member

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    How is M2M not a cmplte faiure. Yes it was a new diretion for the band, but the music was empty and not creative. The lack of creativeness is shown in the sound of M2M being empty. I have grown up with LP. Growing up has nothing to do with the music actually being excellent. If you look at it LP didn't even mature in their music. They just changed. They didn't evolve lyrically. Just topicallity in some songs. Though majority of the album is still whiney, but with less aggressiveness. I can be surprised when I buy and album from my favorite band, and the music they worked on for a year wasn't up to par in creativeness with their earlier efforts. It doesn't have to be rap-rock, but it has to actually be a collection of great music. You are wrong though to say that many people who bought the album liked the album. I think that majority don't enjoy it but the hardcore fans of the band. There are fans, hardcore fans, and people who are curious of the band. Those who are curious may pick up the album, and like it if it's their fist taste of Linkin Park. The "fan" may be undecisive about the album, and the "Hardcore fan" will love it no matter what because their favorite band can do no wrong in their eyes.
    If you look at it after a good 4 years since the last Linkin Park LP they should have a good 2.5 domestic US fans left. Most had moved on, and only if they were curious they would have downladed the album if it were excessable to them in that means. Or They actually bought it based on name, and past experiance with the band. Most got tired of the wait and lost interest.
    I actually had a conversation with an aquantance of mine who isn't a Linkin Park fan, but he digs their music. He bought the Linkin Park album based on past experiance and knowledge of the band and did not like the album at all. Mostly because their was nothing going on in the album. It was too soft, and nothing happened.
    M2M is an okay album, not bad, not good, but decent enough just to get by.
     
  17. #37
    Dean

    Dean LPA Addict LPA Addict

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    Well, RATM were like that, and of course they're back now. Beastie Boys were too but there aren't really any rock elements in their more recent albums.
     
  18. #38
    steve12

    steve12 Well-Known Member

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    If anyone thinks LP's old sound was dead, they must be kidding themselves!

    They didn't evolve their sound with MTM, they created something almost completly different. If you think thats a good thing then so be it, I feel though MTM is more based on influence rather than creativity.
     
  19. #39
    Tim

    Tim My perversion power is accumulating LPA Super Member

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    Like I said before, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. That's all it is, though... an OPINION. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't any good. It's far from their best album, but I think it's pretty good. You know why? It's my OPINION! Tastes are completely subjective. A lot of people like
    The Arcade Fire. I think they're completely terrible, but that's just my opinion. I don't go around saying that since I don't like them they're a complete failure. Just because a band wants to go in a different direction that they didn't clear with you or anybody else doesn't make it a failure. You can tell me how much you hate it all day... doesn't bother me, but when you quantify something as a failure with no real impetus to do so (except your own opinion), then you've just instigated a meaningless argument in my eyes... but that's just me. Everything is subjective.

    -EDIT- Respond to this if you like, but I think we've gone a little too far off topic. Hell I don't even remember what the topic was!
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2007
  20. #40
    Dean

    Dean LPA Addict LPA Addict

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    Just for the record, it's Arcade Fire, not The Arcade Fire. :p
     

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