2012 Vote

Discussion in 'Serious Chat' started by Erica, Sep 24, 2011.

  1. Benjamin

    Benjamin LPA team LPA Super VIP

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    Wow, this post is basically advocating Communism, Leninism, Marxism, AND Socialism. Just like Hitler :kappa:.
     
  2. travz21

    travz21 Muscle Museum LPA Super Member

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    I'm more concerned with the separation of education and state.
     
  3. Derek

    Derek LPAssociation.com Administrator LPA Administrator

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    Actually you know what? I have more to say and I don't care of this creates a double post, or if ThaHandyman posts inbetween now and this post because it needs to be said.

    Getting rid of Christianity/Religion in general wouldn't kill the world. Do you realize how much better this country would be if religion didn't exist? Think of all the murders, bombings and attacks that have occurred because someone claimed they were doing it in the name of God (not just Muslims that do it, but Christians too). Think about the crusades where thousands were killed because they didn't believe in Christ. Or the massive amount of racial/sexual (gay) prejudice that exists in this world because of religion, all because some person who followed a religion decided it was against what a "man in the sky" believes is morally just. Think about the civil/human rights that get violated daily because of religion. Think about all the people who cannot get married or live their lives the way THEY want to because some ignorant people (like ThaHandyman) don't know how to separate their religious beliefs from constitutional law and decide to create laws not based on what is right and what our constitution states, but instead based off of their own religious views and ideals.

    The whole creation of modern day religion destroyed this world. Religion was meant to teach people to love others, and treat people the way they would prefer to treat others. To have acceptance. To not be ignorant, and judge, or show prejudice. Modern day religion features none of these traits. Modern day religion creates prejudice, and breeds hate, and judges those who do not follow said religion and accuses them of being ignorant, sinners, or going to hell.

    That's not the way religion was meant to work. You can call me ignorant all you want TheHandyman, but you should be ashamed of yourself for being so prejudice and believing in denying people basic human rights.
     
  4. Erica

    Erica Child of the Desert LPA Über VIP

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    as a christian I can honestly say that us trying force our beliefs on others is dragging this country down the shitter. You have to progress. Evolve. That's something the Christians refuse to do (oh that's right they don't believe in evolution). If we would just let people live their lives there would be higher quality of life, less unrest, and there's even a shitload of money to. Oh and Handyman, Jesus had some pretty communist beliefs himself. Ever read the story of the bread and fish. Pretty fucking socialist, huh?
     
  5. Apop

    Apop LPA VIP LPA VIP

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    I completely agree with the separation of church and state and the establishment clause as it can be argued that the idea of religious freedom allowed the country to be born. However, where I start to feel offended is when religion, and typically here, Christianity, is being be-littled by, I'm assuming, atheists. I respect your right to believe in, or in your case, not have faith, but what I will never understand is why atheists always feel they are so much smarter and wise. Every atheist I have spoken to says one reason they denounced religion is because they don't believe in the way religion is used as a catalyst and reason for violence, which is fair. However, it also seems like, because they have no faith, atheists feel they can attack someone's beliefs, which is similar to what they are condemning. I respect the right of the people to not have a state-sponsored religion, however, don't attack and ridicule individuals wanting to practice what they have faith in because you think it's "brainwashing" or "fake." It seems the comments being made here are becoming less focused on the idea and more set on the individuals. For example, I'm a practiced Roman Catholic, and yes, I believe in evolution. What? How could this be? Well, I believe that God played a part in the evolution of species for the greater good of all. Religion and science can coexist peacefully. However, with the extremists and fundamentalists on both sides, this probably will not be seen in my lifetime.
     
  6. Derek

    Derek LPAssociation.com Administrator LPA Administrator

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    You assumed incorrectly as I am not an athiest. I am an agnostic, which means I am waiting for verifiable/scientific proof of a higher power before I chose to believe in such. I also am not belittling your religion either. I am stating how I believe Christians in general in this country, insist on forcing their beliefs on others, who may not chose to follow Christ but may decide to worship another deity (or none at all). And for the record, I do honestly feel that Christianity is brainwashing children, because you can't tell me that a child, forced to pray in school and say "under god" is really capable of making their own rational decisions as to whether or not god is real or fake. Again, this isn't a personal attack, and I am aware of how my last two posts can be construed as anti-Christianity, but I'm more against how religion is influencing the way we view human rights/create laws than the actual religion itself. I don't care who you choose to worship, as an American you are given that right (freedom of religion is in the constitution), but all laws should be done from a neutral standpoint and done in the way that benefits ALL constituents and not just who Christians feel the bible says we should protect.

    Again, I'm not attacking Christianity or your right to worship, but you cannot deny that Christianity has a stranglehold on this country and is responsible for some human rights violations that are going on right now (homosexuals being prohibited the right to marry). I'd have no problem with religion, if people in power didn't use it to advance their own religious agendas. Plain and simple, the whole debate came from that Rick Perry ad, which in itself was extremely prejudice. There's no reason to keep gays from serving openly or getting married. Gay people aren't hurting you, so why hurt them? You want people to respect your religion more? Tell lawmakers to stop persecuting people based on their religious beliefs and allow equal human rights for all. It's politicians and people like the Westboro Baptist Church that are hurting Christianity...not normal everyday Christians that worship in the privacy of their own home.
     
  7. Jesse

    Jesse Out of the abyss. LPA Über VIP

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    "Atheist" is a stupid word, it's literal meaning is someone who does not believe in a god/diety. Now, unless you believe in all the gods that were ever made up in existence you are indeed an atheist. Do you believe in Thor or Odin? The Chinese gods? The Japanese catfish that was once used to explain earthquakes? No.

    EVERYONE is an atheist in some way or another, even those who deny it and are religious, are atheists.

    And why the hell do we even have a word to describe something someone does not believe in?

    What's the word for people who don't believe in unicorns, or vampires or zombies? Aunicons? Avamipres,, and Azombi's?

    No, the word is dumb. And it's a shame that we ever even invented it.

    Then again, so is the word agnostic, I mean, it's pretty safe to not believe in something until there is evidence of it. I'm not going to believe in a new cure for something until I see that it's proven but that doesn't mean it doesn't already exist But why do you need a word for not knowing other than "
    "Unsure"

    and even "Unsure" may be going a bit far. How does it make any sense to say "I'm unsure that there is a God but I think there is one" or "I'm unsure that there is a god but I don't think there is one" for that matter?

    The only way it makes sense is just to say "I am unsure" that's it.

    So, which word is more dumb? Atheist has a definite meaning, whilst unfortunate I believe it betters suits me than the word agnostic.

    I'm 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999 there is no god, based on there being absolutely no evidence whatsoever. But there is still a tiny, tiny, tiny percent that is unsure and thus would mean I'm agnostic. So what's the use of the word agnostic anyway if either way I'm going to be agnostic?

    So, no offense Derek but I consider you an atheist, even if you don't consider yourself to be.
    ==========
    And about attacking the religious.

    I don't see ANYTHING wrong with attacking a belief that there is no evidence of when people are shoving it around as truth.

    Ex. Tim: I believe in a flying horse that can shoot laser through it's eyes and can teleport without any negative impact whatsoever. Also if you don't believe in it, it will kill you in two days.

    Me: Where is the proof? Here is my proof that contradicts what you say.

    Tim: STOP ATTACKING MY BELIEFS!

    now, you can see how insane that all is can't you?

    Of course I'm going to demand proof and I'm going to scrutinize so-called proofs that aren't proof at all.

    And I don't consider that rude at all. No, I indeed do not find it offensive to be skeptical and analytical of a religion that is increasingly trying to shape how I live my life, according to things I do not believe in. And frankly, I find it childish, those who complain about such.

    And I don't care if people call me "Close-minded" but it doesn't really make any sense.

    I am close minded, because I allow that there is a possibility that I may be wrong? Even if it is a very small one? Think of all the other possibilities that I AM open to, instead of just one that is taken on faith.

    I'm going to quote Tim Minchin here now

    "Science Adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved"

    from his beat poem - Storm. [video=youtube;V0W7Jbc_Vhw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0W7Jbc_Vhw[/video]

    ---------

    Sorry for the wall of text, and to those who are religious I support religious freedom 100% but it doesn't mean that I support allowing something not to be criticized just because it may offend someone. If that were the case, then I'd have to not support anything in fear of everything I do would offend someone.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2011
  8. Benjamin

    Benjamin LPA team LPA Super VIP

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    The Bible clearly has Earth being only 6,000 whatever years, does it not? So, in theory, it doesn't make sense for any Christian to believe in evolution. However, in practice, there seems to be a pragmatic approach to the Bible which to me makes no logical sense. The way I see it, you either have to accept everything the Bible says or you can't believe in the God that the bible refers to. But that does not mean there isn't some kind of "God" that created the universe. But in that case it's hard to define what "God" is (which should be the real conversation). That's why people like Derek and me are agnostics.

    With all that said, call me glad that people do in fact take this pragmatic approach. If they didn't, people like Rick Perry would be stoning homosexuals to death.
     
  9. Jesse

    Jesse Out of the abyss. LPA Über VIP

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    I personally, don't think I can understand the point of labeling ones self agnostic in itself, I can see the point in agnostic atheism though. But whatever you wanna label yourself as your views are what really matter and I'm not trying to be a debby downer or anything, just saying I don't get it.. Maybe I'm slow. :lol:
     
  10. travz21

    travz21 Muscle Museum LPA Super Member

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    In other news, Obama loves power and defecates on civil rights and the constitution. Change we can believe in!

    Obama insists on indefinite detention of Americans
     
  11. Derek

    Derek LPAssociation.com Administrator LPA Administrator

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    To me the difference between agnostics and atheists are as follows: I believe an atheist is someone who absolutely refuses to believe in the existence of any deity and treats the whole concept and idea of religion as a myth. An agnostic to me is someone who doesn't necessarily dispute the existence of a god or firmly state one doesn't exist, but instead has had yet to find any verifiable scientific proof of such a deity so they do not currently believe in such. I feel there's a significant difference there.
     
  12. ThaHandyman

    ThaHandyman Banned

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    If I had a dollar for every time two sentences somehow became the stereotypical view of conservatives from a liberals standpoint on this board, I have...I don't know like $23. I'll reply soon enough, but its finals week and there's like 10 posts to reply to.
     
  13. Benjamin

    Benjamin LPA team LPA Super VIP

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    I am infuriated that this isn't opening every news program and headlining every paper. And I really would like to see Obama say this to a camera before I believe that he's for this bull shit. The good news is that this is blatantly unconstitutional. Not even a conservative Supreme Court can possibly say otherwise.
     
  14. Erica

    Erica Child of the Desert LPA Über VIP

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    I am actually quite religious. My faith in God and Jesus is very important to me. The reason I "bash" it and the people who believe in it is that as someone who is of the LBGT persuasion I am someone who deals with these injustices on a daily basis. Me and millions of other people who are discriminated against because of the people they love, the clothes they chose where, the gender they chose to identify as. And it seems to slow our progress down immensely.These Christians who hold office keep us from moving forward and getting where we need to be. They're not really free thinkers. Although I guess I shouldn't generalize and judge. Its easy to forget that a lot of Christians really aren't horrible people like the one's so in government. So I guess your right. Its not very Christian of me to attack anybody. And I really should try to create more of peaceful co-existance. And I do kind of agree with you on the whole atheist/agnostic front. Science has life no more figured out then religion does. That said the mix of religion and government is fucking us over.

    Your are the stereotypical conservative. That quote earlier about people taking Christ out of America is all I hear about from Fox news. You are the stereotypical "fox news" conservative. If anyone hear is the brainwashed one its you.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2011
  15. travz21

    travz21 Muscle Museum LPA Super Member

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    The government is trying to keep this as secretive as possible until it is passed and fully implemented already. Then the media will finally start airing it (maybe) when it's too late to do anything about it. The government wants as little resistance as possible on their mission to absolute power through taking away our rights. This is why they're making sure this keeps quiet as long as possible. It's why they want us to fear "terrorism" so they can keep fighting these wars and passing unconstitutional laws that take away our rights. The government wants us to feel like their over-involvement in our lives is necessary so they can attain as much power as we let them. This is why they manipulate our knowledge attained in public schools and trick us with fear mongering and warmongering.
     
  16. Benjamin

    Benjamin LPA team LPA Super VIP

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    It wouldn't be too late. That's why we have a Supreme Court.
     
  17. Apop

    Apop LPA VIP LPA VIP

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    I can't, for the life of me, ever see a law like this being passed. A 5th grader could tell you this isn't morally or Constitutionally right. Now a suspension of habeas corpus is much more likely, but the government has no legitimate way to scare the people into accepting it like "the War on Terror" with the Patriot Act.
     
  18. Derek

    Derek LPAssociation.com Administrator LPA Administrator

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    Exactly. Passing a law like this would call for us to completely throw out the constitution. I can't see it happening.

    And: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/12/rick-perry-ad-bad-lip-reading_n_1144385.html

    This makes more sense.
     
  19. Apop

    Apop LPA VIP LPA VIP

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    Oh, the magic of BLR soundbites..!
     
  20. travz21

    travz21 Muscle Museum LPA Super Member

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    We've thrown out the constitution a long time ago and that didn't seem to even register on anyone's radar. The Patriot Act, going to war without congressional approval, assassinating American Citizens, etc. This would just be another mark on the timeline.
     

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