With the 15th Anniversary of Meteora, has Chester's suicide softened LPA's view of the album?

Discussion in 'Linkin Park Chat' started by kcg, Mar 25, 2018.

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  1. #1
    kcg

    kcg Well-Known Member

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    For many years, there was a lot of negativity directed toward Meteora on LPAssociation as Linkin Park's music changed. It was impossible for anyone to say anything even slightly critical of the band's newer material without being accused of being a nu-metal fanboy or someone bringing up Meteora and complaining about how angsty and immature it was. Somewhere I Belong in particular was ridiculed a lot. Since Chester died, have those of you who bashed Meteora softened your stance on it at all?

    There was notion from many people, myself included sadly, that Chester "grew out of" the mindset he was in during the band's nu-metal era and that he had changed into a completely different person and left his trauma behind, but his shocking suicide death pretty much shattered that illusion into a million pieces. Depression is not a "teen angst" phase and it's something you "grow out of", it's a disease and it can affect anyone regardless of social and economic class. Whether you're a fan of the music or not, to downplay the kind of things Chester was singing about as "whiny" or "teen angst" is to refuse to take seriously how powerful depression and suicidal thoughts truly are and to fuel the already heavy stigma that prevents people from getting the help they need.

    Even for those who've "grown out of" Meteora, I think some of the comments over the last few years on LPA went beyond just critiquing the musical output and just flat out downplaying or ridiculing those who genuinely suffer from the mindsets described in the lyrics on Meteora as a result of whatever mental illness they may have. For me, I struggle with Asperger's Syndrome and clinical depression, but my own family doesn't believe I have depression and just blames me for what I struggle with every day with the cliche "man up" and "you're fine" talking points that just make me feel so much worse, and Linkin Park's music has been a therapeutic life saver for me over the last ten years and has helped me through those times when I felt I had no one to run to and no one to get help from. I'll be damned if anyone is going to downplay what I've been through now since Chester died. The lyrical content on Meteora along with Hybrid Theory to me is not an angsty or whiny young person phase, it's a dead serious cry for help. A cry for help that went unanswered as Chester ultimately took his own life years later.

    So back to the question. Has his passing changed your once critical view of Meteora for the better or at least softened your critique on the lyrical content now that we know just how dark Chester's state of mind was his entire life and didn't simply go away during A Thousand Suns like we once thought?
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2018
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  2. #2
    Derek

    Derek LPAssociation.com Administrator LPA Administrator

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    I'm sorry if you felt the occasional comments against Meteora were making light of depression or mental illness, but I can assure you that the issues many had with that album had nothing to do with that. It was the fact that the album felt like a copy and paste of the first album, with barely any evolution. This was something the band acknowledged by calling it 'Hybrid Theory Pt. 2' later on, and also something a lot of critics said at the time it came out. And yes, some of the lyrics were a tad cringeworthy. It's understandable that Chester was struggling his entire life, and sure it made some songs on Meteora take on a new light, but it still stands as their weakest album for me. I may be more appreciative of it in light of his passing, but I still greatly prefer their other works to that CD.
     
  3. #3
    Modern Guitar God

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    I always liked the album and if that means I have bad taste or don’t get music then :shrug:

    I don’t feel like anyone should have to explain why they like or dislike the album. It is what it is. I’m glad you like the album the same as I do though. Maybe I’m too sentimental about this era though since I was a younger and healthier person.
     
  4. #4
    Deliveranze

    Deliveranze Well-Known Member

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    I've never hated it. It's always been one of my favorites. I used to give it some shit for Mike having some of the laziest rap verses, but overtime (even before Chester's passing), it's soften.


    I think theres a lot more to love than hate. I find the production to contain some of the most interesting sounds they've done, plus I think Chester delivers much more pleasant melodies than on HT. I also think the songwriting is more grounded compared to Hybrid Theory. Some say the lack of subtlety is a flaw, but I think the fact that it's so blunt is really what made it special to alot of people. It's not as cryptic as parts of Hybrid Theory or ATS, and it's not as "weighing out the solutions" like MTM or OML. It's just "this is what I'm feeling" and that's it. Kinda refreshing once in awhile tbh.
     
  5. #5
    Elaine

    Elaine The One They Call Elaine. LPA VIP

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    Also the lyrics were penned by the band with gilmore guiding them(????) not just Chester himself.

    Very important to note. Meteora's lyrics are heavily commercial and written with the intent to have a broad appeal. With perhaps the notable exception of BTH, they're not some sacred cow.

    To simplify the man down to the lyrics he sung and using his memory to shield a piece of art penned by more people than him is a little degrading, no?
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2018
  6. #6
    Modern Guitar God

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    I don’t understand. Explain more please.
     
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  7. #7
    Elaine

    Elaine The One They Call Elaine. LPA VIP

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    LP Lyrics are by and large not messages from Chester, they are penned by the entire band and with producer input. People overlook this because of the fact that he is the singer, and make leaps to connect lyrics and his death because of the tragedy surrounding it. I personally do not think that act does his memory justice.
     
  8. #8
    kcg

    kcg Well-Known Member

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    That's not the point. The point is that a lot of people ridiculed Linkin Park as a "shitty commercial sellout pop band", implying that Chester wasn't being genuine with what he was singing about during that time when it's pretty obvious by now that he was 100% genuine. He wasn't trying to market toward angry teens, he was genuinely in tremendous pain and was just being honest about what was going on in his head. I highly doubt he would've written or sang any of the songs on Meteora if he didn't identify with them. Also, how am I "simplifying him down to the lyrics he sang"? I'm not, I'm just saying that the implication many here make that his music from that time wasn't genuine or was just him pandering to angry teens is not only completely untrue and insulting to his legacy, but it downplays the torment he was going through during that time.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2018
  9. #9
    Modern Guitar God

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    I do agree that the lyrics have more of a general connection with his life than an outright plot of suicide or something (seems a lot of fans think this). Yeah a lot of people don’t realize the lyrics were largely a group effort. I’m not sure I agree 100% with everything you are saying but it isn’t totally wrong either.
     
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  10. #10
    Elaine

    Elaine The One They Call Elaine. LPA VIP

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    I'm fairly sure nobody on this board has done this. No significant member in their time on these boards has ever said LP's lyrics were "Just" trying to market to angsty teens. But given that LP is a commercial band, and yes, a pop band (always has been), their lyrics are heavily tailored for general audiences. Forgive my french, but it is fucking ridiculous to imply that saying any of this means that anyone holding this opinion thinks that Chester wasn't hurting. You have done nothing to establish mutual exclusivity, but you act like they are mutually exclusive, and use it in your argument. Given the surrounding circumstances, this is extremely insulting.

    But maybe I'm just not a member of the LPA Collective Opinion Havers™ About Meteora that you seem to have made this thread to attack. You've chosen the strangest and potentially most insulting way to grind an axe with people.

    Also as I have explained multiple times, Chester was never the sole lyric writer for Meteora or any other LP album. The songs were written by the band as a collective. Stop propogating that nonsense.

    Holding a man's suicide over people who didn't like an album you like is the pettiest bullshit I can imagine, especially when you're doing it to attack a board which has shown a great deal of respect to the man, his family, and his legacy. Forgive me if I'm taking this personally, because I am.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2018
  11. #11
    Modern Guitar God

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    Honestly, we don’t need to be this confrontational. That’s just my opinion.
     
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  12. #12
    Elaine

    Elaine The One They Call Elaine. LPA VIP

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    If he didn't want confrontation he shouldn't have made a conforntational thread. There were so many better ways OP could have addressed this issue without using it to axegrind and disingenuously misrepresent many of this site's users, while also insulting our intelligence and empathy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2018
  13. #13
    Atticus

    Atticus Bullets lance the bravest lungs

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    This forum definitely went through a phase where it was "cool" to hate Meteora. I'm sure Chester's passing definitely had something to do with the renewed respect for the record. Suddenly those aggressive anthems people bashed for being "too angsty" became surreal reflections of a man battling his inner demons. Regardless whether he wrote the lyrics or not, you can feel another layer of pain in his voice.

    I think everything about Meteora is stronger than Hybrid Theory except the rapping. The production is stellar, the screams are more powerful, the guitars are crunchier, the melodies are even more infectious. And Meteora has Breaking the Habit, which has aged like a fine wine. Hell, I threw it and Numb back into my regular daily playlist for the first time since probably 2010 and I get chills all over again.
     
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  14. #14
    kcg

    kcg Well-Known Member

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    Where do I even begin? First of all, calm down. You're by far the most argumentative and confrontational person I've seen on these forums, and not in a trolling and funny way like others, but in a hostile and aggressive way and it's totally not necessary.

    Now on to your points. I never once implied that Chester was the only writer in the band. You're totally putting words in my mouth. I know the band along with their producers (Gilmore, Rubin, etc.) wrote the songs together, but Chester was the face of the band who sang those lyrics and even wrote some song lyrics entirely by himself without Mike (Easier To Run for example). Unfortunately yes, some people who criticized their material attacked Chester and implied in their critiques that he wasn't being genuine with what he was singing, including a few people on this forum. With that also came a lot of people implying that Chester's state of mind during the early 2000's was just a "phase" rather than him suffering from clinical depression and suicidal ideation. By the way, I never said that everyone (or even most people) on this forum shared that opinion of Meteora, I just described the general atmosphere when it was discussed between the day The Catalyst was released and the day Chester died. At times, conversations that didn't have anything to do with Meteora would turn into a "fuck Meteora, it's just a bunch of disingenuous teen angst bullshit and thank god Chester grew out of that shit" fest on these forums, and yes, I know not everyone on this forum did it, but it dominated the general discussions whenever Somewhere I Belong or any other song on Meteora was mentioned and people were ridiculed for saying anything positive about the album for years on this forum.

    I'm not attacking anybody or trying to be argumentative, I'm just asking a question. Given how much negativity there was toward Linkin Park's earlier material on this forum including some people downplaying depression or calling suicidal people selfish (and yes, I know people grow up and change their opinions over time), I just wondered if people's perspectives have changed since Chester died. Again, you need to calm down and stop looking for fights where there are none.
     
  15. #15
    Elaine

    Elaine The One They Call Elaine. LPA VIP

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    Now, there are two ways I could take this. Number one: Disingenous attempts to frame anger as unjustified in an effort to make me look like I'm in the wrong simply because I'm displaying it. Number two, you genuinely don't understand why your posts or thoughts could be taken in this way and have no comprehension of the level of insult that you're displaying. I'm going to go with number two, because I genuinely think you just don't understand why I'm so angry or picking a fight with you. You have completely misinterpeted all of the views that you are attacking, and in doing so you are projecting your own readings onto everyone else and the way you have interpeted those views is a manner of which that leaves a lot to be desired. So let's begin.


    Let's look at your posts, fristly.

    You frame the lyrics as if they solely came from Chester. "He was [...] He wasn't [...] He was just being [...] His head". That's simply not how we should take them, for reasons I've explained. Now, you may not just have realized you were putting your thoughts across in a way where they'd be recieved this way. That's fine. It's okay to admit that, and move on.

    Here's reason one why your posts are insulting: The implication that Chester isn't "genuine" comes entirely from you. I have never, not once seen anyone, even fricking MINUS, who HATES Meteora, imply that the band doesn't sing with sincerity. You are projecting this belief onto everyone else, here, and it is wholly unsubstantiated. You can heavily externalize and tailor your lyrics to a general base while still being sincere, it just makes the content itself not very good. That's literally the extent of the criticism you are lambasting. "The lyrics are bad". There's nothing in there about whether or not they come from a genuine place and I've never seen anyone on this forum frame that criticism in this way. Until now, I guess. And by framing it that way you are attacking people, whether you realize it or not.

    Again, nobody's done that. Linkin Park's lyrics have always been a constant throughout their discography in style and tone, if anything improving heavily between albums. What people say is a "phase" is the nu-metal style, the nu-metal delivery, and there is a lot of reason to believe that to be the case. Again, to attatch your interpetation of these criticisms to those making the criticism is to insult the basic human empathy of everyone who is making said criticism, and if you don't understand why that's insulting, you need to take a step back and rethink your approach here.

    Yes you did. Look at your thread title. "Has LPA's view of Meteora been softened". Words like "There was notion from many people," "It was impossible for anyone to say anything even slightly critical of the band's newer material without being accused of being a nu-metal fanboy", "The point is that a lot of people ridiculed Linkin Park as a "shitty commercial sellout pop band",". All of these are qualified within your title's bounds and with each other.

    You are simply ignorant of the contents of your posts and the substance of the arguments of the people you are talking about. Through the acts of misunderstanding, misrepresenting and projecting, you are attacking them. You just don't realize it because you think your interpetations are right. That's arrogance.

    "Given how much negativity there was toward Linkin Park's earlier material on this forum including some people downplaying depression or calling suicidal people selfish" - You continue to use the opinions of a few nutjobs to paint the site as a whole while, in the same sentence, saying you're not attacking anybody.

    Please check yourself.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2018
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  16. #16
    Derek

    Derek LPAssociation.com Administrator LPA Administrator

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    Kcg, if you’ve been following these boards for as long as you claim to have than you know that from time to time I’ll confront Elaine for taking things too personally. Elaine is a very passionate person, and sometimes that passion can be a little much.

    In this case though? Her anger is justified and I have agreed with everything she’s written here. You created this thread with an axe to grind and tried to shame everyone who happens to dislike how embarrassingly commercial the album was, shamefully using Chester’s suicide as a means to do so. It is not only incredibly cruel, but it’s a ridiculous argument to use considering that one: Chester didn’t write all the lyrics, and two: Chester himself even complained about the lyric writing process for the album as they were forced to rewrite SIB a disgusting number of times.

    So if the band themselves had issue with the lyrics, then so will many of the fans here. But that’s enough talking about this. This thread was misguided and treading ugly ground from the start. And therefore I am closing it.
     
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