[SPOILER ALERT] The Dark Knight Rises

Discussion in 'The Living Room' started by Agent, Oct 27, 2010.

  1. Joe

    Joe I'm tried LPA Administrator

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    I've seen this a number of times now, and it just gets better with every viewing. I've picked up on so many different things in the film, even after coming out of the theater for a fourth time. It also amazes me how many people just didn't "get it". Christopher Nolan has always done an amazing job of creating movies that can tailor for the mainstream and the arthouse audience, but the only problem (or benefit) with that is you get a lot of people who can understand the plot but not necessarily the story, and the amount of people who have confused plot details of the TDKR is astounding. Like, there's so many people bringing up elements of the story as "plot-holes" that aren't even true and can be easily dismissed after paying attention to the film, that it's cringe-worthy. It's not anybody's fault because Nolan's films do tend to take a couple of viewings to even begin to absorb everything, but it's almost laughable when people criticize it after one viewing, and doing so by using completely wrong facts.

    I'm a huge Batman fan and it's only now I've felt the need to post in here because I feel I've seen the film enough times to almost completely understand and absorb it. I recommend everyone see this film at least 2-3 times before forming a conclusive opinion on it.
     
  2. travz21

    travz21 Muscle Museum LPA Super Member

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    The overall story is good, but this is his worst narrative by a long shot. It hops, skips, and jumps along and misses key opportunities to grab the audience. It ruined everything he was building up to in the finale. I still don't know why it was so bad. If you can make a clusterfuck of a story like Inception work perfectly, I don't see how you can mess this up.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2012
  3. Mark

    Mark Canadian Beauty LPA Administrator

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    I saw it twice and it actually got worse for me.

    It's not a terrible film but I felt it was very flawed. Not up to the standard that The Dark Knight created for this franchise.

    Gordon emerging unscathed from that very violent crash
    Dragging an unstable nuclear bomb around the city
    How Batman managed to escape the blast radius
    How convenient it was for Catwoman to show up out of nowhere and blast Bane
    Bane's pussification at the end (I understand the tie-in with Batman Begins). It felt like Nolan forced a twist on us
    Bane's abrupt, anticlimactic death
    Talia's hilariously bad death scene (really? you couldn't re-shoot that?)
    How Bruce Wayne managed to re-enter the city that was guarded by military with no gadgetry.
    How he was able to just appear and find Selina Kyle after re-entering the city.
    How it went from day to night within like 5 minutes after the stock exchange/chase scene.

    There were too many things that took me out of the movie.
     
  4. Snail

    Snail LPA Super Member LPA Super Member

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    ^ Yup.

    It's not even a matter of attempting to come off as some sort of self-righteous, super observant, reviewer of the film and inadvertently coming off as pretentious and anal. I really want to love the film and forgive the team for their discrepancies with the final result. Unfortunately, the fact of the matter is that it is a seriously flawed piece of work.
     
  5. hawk

    hawk because the internet LPA Super VIP

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    - The fact that it is discovered that Bruce fixed the autopilot post-explosion seemed to imply that he wasn't in the wing upon detonation.
    - That was a bit annoying. Bane fucked Bruce up in their first fight and the whole time that Bruce was forced to watch Gotham slowly fall, and just as he is about to get sweet revenge (I was fucking ready), bitch face reveals herself and it sense of the whole scene, you could definitely it was forced. I wish Bruce has just taken out Bane, and bitch face revealed herself another time.
    - I can understand that he traveled back to Gotham over the course of 18 hours (I think), but it is odd to see him turn up, and find exactly who he need to when he needed to, then again, if that had not happened, a whole new hole would have formed.
    - I didn't really notice the day/night change that much, I was too busy watching the film.

    I can ignore everything above and still thoroughly enjoy the movie, which I plan on doing the next time I see it, whenever that may be.
     
  6. Joe

    Joe I'm tried LPA Administrator

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    This is one of the most misunderstood facts about the whole film, and it's laughable to see people argue this as a flaw. I'm not saying you're doing that, but a lot of people completely got lost in the time-span of the events in this film.

    It wasn't two minutes and it definitely wasn't 18 hours. Nolan doesn't tag the screen with the location, date and time text so I can see why some people may not be aware of when and how time passes in the film. Let's look at it like this; at three months into Gotham's takeover we learn through the special forces unit's conversation with Lucious that the bomb is unstable and that it won't even last up until the 5 month period. To be exact they give an estimate of 23 days. The next scene we are greeted with Bruce's second and third attempts of climbing from the prison fueled by the special forces unit hanging, ofcourse he's successful on his third attempt. This gives Batman at the most 23 days to get back to Gotham, HOWEVER, this is also assuming that Bruce's second and third climbing attempts are on the same day and happen back to back, as it doesn't necessarily explicitly share this, but really, does it need to?

    It's all a question of Bruce's time in prison running parallel with what's happening in Gotham. Bruce watching the news feed and seeing the hanging bodies and then making the second climb lets us know this is 23 days before the bomb detonates. It's just a question of the third climb and when that happens, if it is the same day, Bruce has 23 days to get back to Gotham, 23 days to know the bomb is going to go off and 23 days to find Selina, which isn't difficult as she explicitly states in the dialogue "Now you boys know you can't come in to my neigborhood without asking first" as she proceeds to kick the shit out of the two thugs about to beat on a kid. The "my neigborhood" comment implies she is localized to a certain area of the city.

    That's how I see it anyway, maybe I'm wrong but that's how I understood it.
     
  7. Dizzy Slay

    Dizzy Slay Well-Known Member

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    Do you think if Heath was still alive that there would have also been a Joker cameo?
     
  8. Snail

    Snail LPA Super Member LPA Super Member

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    ^ Not just a cameo. If memory serves me right, there was mention that Heath would have been included in a third installment had it not been for his passing. Unfortunately, I have no recollection as to where I read this tid-bit of info, so I guess you can chalk this one up as hear-say.
     
  9. travz21

    travz21 Muscle Museum LPA Super Member

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    I remember reading that he signed a two-movie contract.
     
  10. Dizzy Slay

    Dizzy Slay Well-Known Member

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    wow. it would have been amazing to see all the villians in one film. its a shame hes not with us anymore. By any chance would anyone happen to know what part The Joker was supposed to play in Bain's new society?
     
  11. hawk

    hawk because the internet LPA Super VIP

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    Maybe it was my misunderstanding of the time then, maybe I just made 18 hours up. Thanks for clarifying your point.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2012
  12. travz21

    travz21 Muscle Museum LPA Super Member

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    It's very likely The Dark Knight Rises would have had a completely different story if Heath were around to play the Joker. Nobody except Chris Nolan and a few others know for sure, but I feel like the Joker was going to be the focal point of the last movie again, but with a bigger supporting cast of villains. Nolan said he hadn't written any of the third installment before Heath's death, but there had to be a very clear story he had in mind. I'll chalk that up as the reason why the finale was handled poorly compared to his other movies. Seems like he was grasping at anything to fill in the holes and fix his story that was caused by Heath's death, and he overlooked a lot of things while doing so.
     
  13. Dizzy Slay

    Dizzy Slay Well-Known Member

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    You make a shit load of sense my good man!
     
  14. Mark

    Mark Canadian Beauty LPA Administrator

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    Obviously. But there was footage of him, in costume, sitting in the chair of the Bat when there was 5 seconds left on the clock.

    It's EXTREMELY convenient. Would it have hurt to put in a 1 minute scene where he's climbing underneath the bridge or some shit to get back into Gotham? He comes out of thin air, and also manages to find Selina Kyle in the middle of a city of 3 million people. This sort of "you fill in the blanks" storytelling is incredibly lazy.

    I was very intently watching the film, but that detail completely brought me out of the movie. "Wait, WTF, it was JUST daylight!"
     
  15. Snail

    Snail LPA Super Member LPA Super Member

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    " I think you and I are destined to do this forever. "
     
  16. Gman2887

    Gman2887 Well-Known Member

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    Which was intentional in order to throw the audience off. Films aren't edited to fit real time, but edited to proper dramatic pacing. Sure we saw Batman "seconds" before the explosion, but that was how the film was purposefully cut: To trick you. Who knows how long it really took him to fly out there.

    This reminds me of a long, pretentious essay I read in class, years ago, about editing, Russian montage...etc... The essay dove much further than I wanted to read about how editing is an art form meant to throw audience's perception of time way off. This is an example of such.

    When Selina saves the child from getting beat up by the two thugs she sarcastically insinuates that they wouldn't do that in "her neighborhood" would they? That's not necessarily fill-in-the-blank storytelling, but a clever throw away line that eludes to Selina being at large in her own area, making her easy to find.

    Granted it could've been done with a little more clarity, but I don't find Bruce Wayne sneaking in to Gotham particularly out of the ordinary for his character or interesting at this point. And Batman Begins already explored how he's capable of traveling the world without funds-- So I see no real reason to waste time revisiting that either.


    There's no doubt that The Dark Knight Rises isn't The Dark Knight, but it also didn't need to be. The goal was to finish the story well and I believe it did that. Most of the nitpicks I've read are fairly explainable or even shown in the movie without fault. I've watched it 4 times now, twice in IMAX, and I while I'm aware of the flaws I can safely say it's a brilliant movie with minor beats that need polishing. A lot of problems reside in the second act, like most have said, but its not the kiss of death. The exposition with the three undercover soldiers was largely unnecessary and we probably needed to see a little more Bruce imprisoned during the Gotham carnage.

    Regardless, the screenwriting has some brilliant dialogue (save for a line or two), the acting sports the best performance the ensemble has thrown at the audience in all three films and the antithesis to The Dark Knight's conclusion was a clever way to keep both it and Begins tied nicely to the finale.

    Enjoy it while you can boys. We won't get anything close to this once Batman gets the reboot.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2012
  17. Mark

    Mark Canadian Beauty LPA Administrator

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    I understand what you're saying about the chair.

    That's a reach, and for Nolan to expect the audience to put those two things together is a bit much.

    It absolutely could have been told more clearly. We have no idea how he got back into a heavily-guarded Gotham City. I felt like Nolan went "you come up with your own theory". It comes off as so lazy to me. Like he expected Batman/Nolan fans to use their imaginations instead of properly connecting the dots. I'd prefer that he took the time to explain the things we're going to question.

    And don't even get me started on how he somehow had the time to paint a giant bat symbol in gasoline on a bridge without anybody noticing.

    There's far too much expectation on the part of Nolan that the audience will simply suspend their disbelief and logical thinking in order to enjoy this movie. I had a long conversation with a huge DC fan who came up with excuse after excuse for the plotholes in this movie, as if he were pulling them out of thin air.

    I like to think of myself as an intelligent, observant, attentive and engaged moviegoer. This movie simply didn't do it for me, while the first two did.
     
  18. ChuckCheese

    ChuckCheese Did somebody order some cheese? LPA VIP

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    Gotham wasn't heavily guarded. The army and Bane's men (who, they admit, aren't numerous), are all stationed to keep people out. Hell, apparently there wasn't even any of Bane's men guarding the bridges around the time that Bruce arrived. The mercenary says to the solider that they don't have enough men to keep people from leaving, but the army does, and proceeds with the threat that if anybody leaves, the city is destroyed. I think that Bane's men probably stopped bothering to guard the entrance / exit points after that or sometime after, deciding that the army would do it. I don't think it would have been difficult at all for Bruce to slip in.
     
  19. travz21

    travz21 Muscle Museum LPA Super Member

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    It's easy to explain how Bruce got back in and found Selina. He was trained by the League of Shadows and is crazy ninja-like. The problem is that we don't see any of that this movie. We don't see that he's an extraordinary intellect or assassin. We see bits and pieces of it in the previous movies, which is all we needed to connect with the character and make things believable, but it's lacking in TDKR. Bane falls victim to this as well.

    It's rammed down our throats that they were both League of Shadows, so we are just supposed to assume how they do these extremely difficult things without showing it or explaining it. This is bad storytelling. It makes things unbelievable and hollow. Yes, having Bruce randomly show up out of nowhere can be explained easily and it makes sense, but it NEEDS to be explained and shown for us to connect with it. Even a 20-second clip accomplishes this and further draws us in and advances the story. Nolan didn't do any of that in TDKR and it resulted in a narrative that skipped and jumped around while not giving us anything to grab onto or connect with the story or characters.

    It's like saying someone can do something 'just because', and then showing the result of what they did without ever showing the process of it. Yes, it can be explained, but it just makes you raise an eyebrow and takes you out of the story. It doesn't allow for the audience to connect or feel anything for the character.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2012
  20. Calvin

    Calvin The rhythm projects 'round the next sound... LPA VIP

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    Getting back to what Minus said, I'd fucking love a Nightwing film.
     

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