Remembrance Day

Discussion in 'Serious Chat' started by Anthony., Nov 11, 2005.

  1. #41
    Intergalactic Christ

    Intergalactic Christ Blood On Ice LPA VIP

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    The nazi's were fighting for what they believed, and even though it was wrong, it's why they were doing it which counts. Yeah, it was nasty, but brave.

    Also, not all germans were nazi's, some had to fight, otherwise they were killed, in Britain at least. I don't know what it was like in germany seen as our history classes haven't been into that yet.
     
  2. #42
    Mark

    Mark Canadian Beauty LPA Administrator

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    What did I say about honouring Nazis? You're twisting my words to further a weak point.

    What I'm talking about is that you have to respect the people who fought for your freedoms, sacrificied their lives for you and everyone you know. If you can't respect that, then I can't respect you for being so ungrateful.

    When you imply that I mean the Nazis when I say "they", then you're implying that the Nazis "sacrificed their lives in the face of grave danger so people like you and me can live with freedom". That's not my point, and although it probably wasn't yours, I can twist words as well.
     
  3. #43
    esaul17

    esaul17 antichrist

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    Hey, I agree that they deserve respect. I just think that when you said "These men risked their lives when asked for their country." and demanded respect because of that, you were wrong. I am saying that, just because people risked their lives, you don't need to respect them. Also, if you are looking at World War I with conscription, then they didn't have a choice. I respect that they died for our freedom, don't try to say I didn't. I am just saying, the German's died for their country, many were conscripted, and I don't respect them.
     
  4. #44
    Mark

    Mark Canadian Beauty LPA Administrator

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    I didn't say you should respect Nazis, ever. You're overgeneralizing. You're on a completely different page and it's pointless to keep going there because you're implying I said something I didn't. Again, enough with the word twistng.

    Obviously, when I talk about "these men", I meant the people fighting for us. Why would I say something like that about the Nazis if they were fighting against me? You were the one who was wrong, when you misinterpreted what I wrote.
     
  5. #45
    esaul17

    esaul17 antichrist

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    I KNOW you weren't refering to the Nazi's. I was using them as an example of people who fought for their country that haven't earned my respect. You are twisting my words more than I am twisting yours.
     
  6. #46
    Mark

    Mark Canadian Beauty LPA Administrator

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    Hardly. ;)

    I don't see what using people I wasn't talking about as an example of people you don't respect accomplishes, when in fact it had nothing to do with what I said. Hah. Stalemate.
     
  7. #47
    esaul17

    esaul17 antichrist

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    Okay, as long as you agree that, just because you fought for your country, you don't deserve respect from all.
     
  8. #48
    Link04

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    Yes, it was disrespectful. Frankly, they don't have my respect. I don't see your insults in any way relevant to this discussion. They don't refute or attempt to disprove what all of you suddenly got offended at.

    At the end of the day, you can dress it however you please, but the armed forces murder people. That's all, call it sacrifice, call it whatever you want, but the ends don't hallow the means. It's deliberate killing, even if agreed upon or state sponsored. It remains murder. You can take whatever moral high ground you want saying that I should respect veterans and what they did, but I could just as easily demand that you give human life in general the proper respect it deserves.

    I've got a grandfather that served on the USS Louisville in the United States Navy. Oh well. Thank god he didn't kill anyone. But he still aided in murder, everyone down to the ship's cook did. I condemn that, even though I love him dearly. The fact that one's relative comitts an act doesn't make it any more right or wrong.

    Minus Zero: People choose to enter the military. In times of draft, people choose to be coerced. Even if a man holds up your store, do you not choose to give him the money?

    Will: Like a draft would uproot me from my values. You guys should know me better than that by now.

    Respect lost? Oh well, I don't post for your respect, guys, I post for myself, and for what I think betters humanity. Killing isn't in that equation.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2005
  9. #49
    Mark

    Mark Canadian Beauty LPA Administrator

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    That's your choice, not mine, and I'll never agree with that.

    Link: While I respect your choice of opinion, your views are just so radically different from what I and many other people in this thread believe that it just appauls me that you've chosen this way to spin these veterans' services to further a point about the wrongfulness of murder. Tell me, would you kill someone if the only other alternative was to die at their hands? There was no room for negociations about racial purity with the Nazis, so don't go down that road.

    Add my name to the list of people whose respect you've lost.
     
  10. #50
    Link04

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    K, I suppose you guys will have to keep track of that list, because I'm sure not. Thanks for respecting my choice of opinion.
     
  11. #51
    esaul17

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    If you think that just because you fought for your country, you deserve the respect of everyone, then you DO respect Nazi's. They DID fight for their country. According to you that is enough for you to respect them.
     
  12. #52
    Mark

    Mark Canadian Beauty LPA Administrator

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    I'm willing to bet you're looking at your computer screen at the moment grinning because you think you've got me boxed into a corner.

    Being a Canadian, that sounds like you're talking about a hypothetical situation involving Canadian soldiers. To that I disagree.

    Nice try, though.

    The way you meant to say it is this way:



    If you had worded it correctly, I would've agreed with you only in situations where extremism is involved, i.e: the Nazis.
     
  13. #53
    esaul17

    esaul17 antichrist

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    I am Canadian as well. I apologize for my poor wording. I am glad you agree that not everyone fighting for their country deserves respect. "You" refered to a hypothetical soldier, not necessarily Canadian.
     
  14. #54
    User Name

    User Name Angry Marines. Always angry, all the time. >:C LPA Super Member

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    I haven't really observed Remberance Day for the last two years. Last year, I spent the day playing Halo 2 at a friends house, and just this last Friday, I spent it playing Fable.

    It was fun, but I kind of feel bad about it. My grandfather on my dad's side of the family served in the First World War (although not in a combat role. He had a syndrome that resembled Parkinson's, but it wasn't that. To this day, I still don't know exactly what he did).
     
  15. #55
    Will

    Will bread crumbs & white stones LPA Addicted VIP

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    Perhaps, if you'd serve your country, you'd have some respect for what those people go through. You're being completely selfish now.
     
  16. #56
    Link04

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    Yes. I am selfish.
    No, I don't think killing people myself would make me respect killing. For a moment let's say it would. Would it make murder any less murderous if I respected it? Of course not, that's silly. Popular respect doesn't make it any more legitimate.
     
  17. #57
    Will

    Will bread crumbs & white stones LPA Addicted VIP

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    What the FUCK are you talking about?

    Let me make it bigger and maybe it'll make it clearer to you:

    WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT RESPECTING MURDER, YOU FOOL. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT RESPECTING THE SOLDIERS WHO FOUGHT FOR THE COUNTRY TO PROTECT OUR FREEDOMS.

    There.
     
  18. #58
    Link04

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    And what do soldiers do, Will? Sit around and play cards? They murder people and take up a load of your tax money whilst doing so. Again, excuse me for valuing human life and individual property rights.
     
  19. #59
    Will

    Will bread crumbs & white stones LPA Addicted VIP

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    Wow.

    Seriously. That's all I can say to you now. You've completely baffled me.
     
  20. #60
    Link04

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    What's baffling to me is why you guys are so shocked. It's funny how you're so quick to take the moral high ground on this issue and talk about virtue, yet the axiom of the commercials and the air shows are all alike: people are being killed. I think, like I alluded to, it's more important to respect human life than it is to respect any nation of veterans.

    Again, as I've said, you can throw around cozy terms like duty, honor, and security, but they sugar coat what a soldier is. A soldier is there to kill. He is given a weapon, training, and government sanction to kill people. Whatever the intention, whatever the words used, the armed forced wouldn't be armed forces if they didn't kill other people.

    I believe I've gotten into a violence discussion on this forum already. If not, please note that violence has not productively solved anything in our history as a race. Violence replaces immediate problems with several other problems that can be called much more underlying and severe. Even in WWII, violence provided no productive solution to the Nazi's, it simply tried to eradicate the eradicators. I'm not saying the immediate goal wasn't accomplished, I'm just saying that when you choose to take a destructive means to reach an end, the end must logical be destructive.

    Maybe this sheds more light on why I say what I say. It's not that I don't want problems solved, it's not that I want everyone to suffer and be a victim, I simply acknowledge that man's brain is a much more potent weapon than any gun he can produce, and that problems can be productively solved by such, without having to murder anyone.
     

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