John Kerry vs. George W. Bush

Discussion in 'Serious Chat' started by Faint.09, Jun 19, 2004.

  1. #61
    enfestid

    enfestid Guest




    Second Question:
    Clinton left the office with the largest surplus because of the technology boom. The bust of the technology boom only started when Clinton was about to leave office. I can say with almost 100% certainty that no matter who was in office the economy would have gone down, be it Clinton or Bush.

    No one was expecting a massive technology and dot com boom when Clinton took office, that's why everyone counted him out to begin with. If Bush were in office at that time instead of Clinton then I'm sure he would have created a large surplus, too. As large as Clinton's? That's hard to say, but I'm fairly certain they'd at least be close.

    Presidents really have very little control over the economy and how it functions other than creating and cutting jobs. Bush has just started creating millions of jobs to help the economy, and it's on pace to regenerate into a surplus somewhat soon.

    The budget that Bush set was a budget that was within the actual budget (if that makes sense). If you think a 2.4 trillion dollar budget is large then you're not thinking in terms of the United States. The United States has a huge budget... if we used none of it, we'd probably be able to buy half the world, to be quite honest. The 2.4 trillion dollar budget had a very small effect on the economy, since that's what we're talking about. The technology bust was what made the massive economic downfall. The dot com and technology bust lost millions of jobs.

    Fifth Question:
    Scam that got Bush into office? Mark, I hate to dissappoint you, but even if Bush did lose Florida (which he did not, not on the first count and not on the final count) he would have won the election. Why? Because of the electoral college.

    You're right, though. There was an effort to get Florida voters who were majorly democratic. Too bad it happened after the first tally, in which Bush won Florida. Too bad that when they recounted that Bush still won, as I stated in my first link on section five.

    But, the fact remains, whether you choose to accept the previous information or not (the counting of the ballots... all done legally, all counted and re-counted) that Bush would have been in the White House either way -- he won the electoral college. Voting, in large part, is actually a hill of beans since the electoral college is all that really matters. Not much of a democracy, but the United States is a republic.

    Even when counted all of the discarded ballots (done by the Miami Herald), Bush still won. I'm not quite sure what else you want. The Miami Herald counted all the discarded ballots, as in their article. Meanwhile, the New York Times used assumed information and information that they were told. Difference is the Miami Herald used the actual ballots.

    But, as I said -- none of it matters. Bush won the electoral college.

    Also: The Nation isn't exactly a non-partisian publication... :lol:
     
  2. #62
    Mark

    Mark Canadian Beauty LPA Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2002
    Messages:
    24,862
    Likes Received:
    388



    Fair enough on the second question.

    Bush won on the initial count because he denied voting priviledges to all those "suspected" felons! Of course he's going to win on the first count if he, along with help from co-workers and family members, denies the priviledge to vote to all these would-be democrat voters months before the election! It's not like these people weren't allowed to vote, and THEN had their votes taken on them, they just plain well weren't allowed to vote!

    Because of these absentee ballots, Bush won. Look at my original posts! 680 ballots that were counted (544 for Bush) were towards Bush's 537 vote win, and they were faulty, as discovered by various newspaper and press companies allowed to do their own recounts. Had these votes not have been counted? Gore would've won! Are you not reading what I'm saying? This election was rigged. Rigged so these would-be Gore-voters couldn't vote. Rigged so Bush would win the state of Florida, and then get his presidency. And I know you'll never accept that, so resuming this is pointless and time wasting.

    And the whole presidency was hinged upon Florida's 25 electoral votes! Going into the Florida re-count, Gore had 266 electoral votes and Bush had 246 electoral votes! When Bush got those 25 votes in Florida, he received 5 more electoral votes than Gore, at a total of 271.

    http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/e...votes/2000.html
     
  3. #63
    enfestid

    enfestid Guest




    No, I'm reading what you're saying, and yes, Jeb Bush did try to have it rigged. But, as I said, even when their votes were counted (according to the Miami Herald), Bush still won the election.

    And, as I said -- even if Bush didn't win Florida he'd still be in the White House right now. So you can't say that he "stole" the election when he would have won, whether he won or lost Florida.
     
  4. #64
    Todd

    Todd FLǕGGȦ∂NKđ€ČHIŒβǾLʃÊN LPA Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,061,051
    Likes Received:
    99



    But if the people who weren't allowed to vote for no reason were allowed to vote, Gore would have kicked Bush's ass. And whoever won Florida won the election, as Mark explained with the electoral votes. Thats why Gore wanted all the recounts.
     
  5. #65
    enfestid

    enfestid Guest




    Gore wouldn't have won the electoral votes. You don't have to win the popular vote to win the election, as this election proved (and two previous elections have, I believe). It was already known that Florida was a problem, so going into the electoral college everyone knew that.

    Read this if you're confused on the situation: http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/storie...ctoral.vote.01/

    The electors voted for Bush. I'd be willing to bet that even if Bush lost they would have still voted for him because of Jeb Bush. Gore wouldn't (and didn't) win Florida's electoral vote, which is what matters.

    And -- that's why Gore wanted all the recounts? Only in democratic areas? No, he wanted all the recounts in democratic areas to gain himself some votes and make sure Bush didn't get any. Why not recount the entire state? Because he knew he'd still lose.

    And, as I said, the Miami Herald recounted and Bush still came out on top... read my first source for that.
     
  6. #66
    Todd

    Todd FLǕGGȦ∂NKđ€ČHIŒβǾLʃÊN LPA Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,061,051
    Likes Received:
    99



    If Gore would have won the electoral votes from Florida, he would have won the election.
     
  7. #67
    enfestid

    enfestid Guest




    You're right, he would have. But he didn't. And the popular votes (the actual voting by the people) wouldn't have changed that, anyways. You don't have to win the popular votes to win the electoral votes.
     
  8. #68
    Todd

    Todd FLǕGGȦ∂NKđ€ČHIŒβǾLʃÊN LPA Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,061,051
    Likes Received:
    99



    If he would have won the popular vote in Florida (which he would have if Bush & Co. didn't cheat) he would have won Florida's electoral votes, giving him more electoral votes than dubya and he would have won the election.
     
  9. #69
    enfestid

    enfestid Guest




    No he wouldn't have won the electoral votes by winning the popular votes.

    And, no he wouldn't have won the popular vote... at least according to the Miami Herald.
     
  10. #70
    Mark

    Mark Canadian Beauty LPA Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2002
    Messages:
    24,862
    Likes Received:
    388



    Whoever won the state of Florida, won the election.

    The electoral vote count, as I said, was; 266 electoral votes for Gore, 246 elctoral votes for Bush.

    In the case that Bush "won"; he would've got 271 electoral votes (which he did), and he beat Gore by 5 electoral votes because of it.

    In the case that Gore won; he would've got 291 electoral votes, and he would've beat Bush by 45 electoral votes.

    Every state played a part in Bush's "win"/Gore's "loss", but Florida was the last state counted, and the last state needed for either candidate to win. The fact that Bush got 4 votes from Nevada matters little when in fact he would've lost the elction if he hadn't on "won" Florida.

    So yes, the whole presidency was hinged on the state of Florida.
     
  11. #71
    enfestid

    enfestid Guest




    You're right, the whole presidency did hinge on the state of Florida. And, as I said, reports have shown that Bush won after the recount and after the Miami Herald investigated the matter even after the election. Conspiracy sites can complain all they want, but Bush even won after a non-partisian investigation.

    Also, Nevada was key, too -- Bush needed those 4 votes to win the presidency. But just as key as any other state. If Gore would have won his home state then we wouldn't be having this debate right now. That was just as key as Florida... the fact that Gore didn't really do much in Tennesse when he should have (because he would have easily won, if he would have actually stayed there long, but instead he practically ignored it) really screwed his chances up.
     
  12. #72
    Todd

    Todd FLǕGGȦ∂NKđ€ČHIŒβǾLʃÊN LPA Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,061,051
    Likes Received:
    99



    Yes, he would have won Florida's electoral votes if more people in Florida voted for Gore than Bush. Florida's electoral votes would have given him enough to beat bush and win the presidencey.


    And did the Miami Herald take into account the thousands of people who weren't able to vote because they were on dubya's blacklist? If they could have voted, Bush would have had his ass handed to him by Gore and we'd have Gore as our president right now.
     
  13. #73
    enfestid

    enfestid Guest




    Yes, he would have won Florida's electoral votes if more people in Florida voted for Gore than Bush. Florida's electoral votes would have given him enough to beat bush and win the presidencey.


    And did the Miami Herald take into account the thousands of people who weren't able to vote because they were on dubya's blacklist? If they could have voted, Bush would have had his ass handed to him by Gore and we'd have Gore as our president right now. [/b][/quote]
    Take a look for yourself: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1190222.stm
    http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/04/04/...ida.recount.01/

    Gore didn't win. The people who were "blacklisted" that voted simply didn't get their vote counted. Yet, even when the Miami Herald recounted the vote it stated that Bush won the election.

    EDIT: Another link about the election -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presiden..._election,_2000

    I also like the fact how you're forgetting that Gore got them to recount only democratic sections at first to give him more votes, which they let stand at the recount, yet Bush still won.
     
  14. #74
    Mark

    Mark Canadian Beauty LPA Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2002
    Messages:
    24,862
    Likes Received:
    388



    They didn't vote, and then get blacklisted. They were just unallowed to vote. I've said this before, and now I'm only repeating myself. There were no votes from these people to even be counted. They didn't vote. They weren't allowed to vote. It's not like they voted and had their vote then taken away from them, it was taken away before they c ould even vote.

    I'm sick of repeating myself. Bush won because;

    A) Jeb Bush/Katherine Harris didn't allow the would-be democrat voters to vote in the first place. (FACT)
    B) They counted the 680 flawed absentee ballots. 544 of them were for Bush. Bush won by 537 votes. Meaning that Gore was ahead 7 votes before the absentee ballots were counted and admitted illegally with flaws. (FACT)

    My Internet is messing up, so I'll give links in a second.
     
  15. #75
    enfestid

    enfestid Guest




    They didn't vote, and then get blacklisted. They were just unallowed to vote. I've said this before, and now I'm only repeating myself. There were no votes from these people to even be counted. They didn't vote. They weren't allowed to vote. It's not like they voted and had their vote then taken away from them, it was taken away before they c ould even vote.

    I'm sick of repeating myself. Bush won because;

    A) Jeb Bush/Katherine Harris didn't allow the would-be democrat voters to vote in the first place. (FACT)
    B) They counted the 680 flawed absentee ballots. 544 of them were for Bush. Bush won by 537 votes. Meaning that Gore was ahead 7 votes before the absentee ballots were counted and admitted illegally with flaws. (FACT)

    My Internet is messing up, so I'll give links in a second. [/b][/quote]
    Read the bold. Meaning they voted, but they weren't counted. The Miami Herald used all discarded ballots.

    EDIT: Oh, and if these "flawed" ballots weren't for Bush, then why in 2003 (when all voters were re-surveyed, asking who they voted for in the 2000 election) did Bush win by over 1,000 votes?
     
  16. #76



    Gore had more votes than Bush in Florida before the final recount. Floridians were shown to be cheering Gore on and the results (in Gore's favour) were plastered all across CNN, CBS and ABC news. John Ellis (Bush's first cousin) was in charge of covering the election at Fox News and Fox was the first news channel to announce Bush's victory.

    The majority of the American people did NOT vote for George W Bush and Mark was right about the scam. The Supreme Court intervened and stopped another recount, otherwise Gore might have won.

    Link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/US_election_race...,450313,00.html
     
  17. #77
    enfestid

    enfestid Guest




    Gore had more votes than Bush in Florida before the final recount. Floridians were shown to be cheering Gore on and the results (in Gore's favour) were plastered all across CNN, CBS and ABC news. John Ellis (Bush's first cousin) was in charge of covering the election at Fox News and Fox was the first news channel to announce Bush's victory.

    The majority of the American people did NOT vote for George W Bush and Mark was right about the scam. The Supreme Court intervened and stopped another recount, otherwise Gore might have won.

    Link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/US_election_race...,450313,00.html [/b][/quote]
    Sigh... the Guardian is one of the most biased sources that you can possibly get. Please get a reputable source and research before you post a site you just found in Google.

    I happen to know that your information is wrong yet again:
    In all cases, Gore lost. Now why would he have asked for the FIRST recount if he WON? These are the FACTS. They have been checked and double checked. Check my source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presiden..._election,_2000

    You see, all of my recounts are non-partisian. Your lone source is one of the most biased there is.

    EDIT: Your article doesn't even contain a source... it just says a comprehensive study. That's extremely lacking in credence.
     
  18. #78
    Mark

    Mark Canadian Beauty LPA Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2002
    Messages:
    24,862
    Likes Received:
    388



    Read the bold. Meaning they voted, but they weren't counted. The Miami Herald used all discarded ballots.

    EDIT: Oh, and if these "flawed" ballots weren't for Bush, then why in 2003 (when all voters were re-surveyed, asking who they voted for in the 2000 election) did Bush win by over 1,000 votes?
    [/b][/quote]
    Alright, so that's 57,700 of the 137,000 people disallowed to vote in Florida.

    http://archive.aclu.org/news/2001/w052201a.html - LA Times article concerning "Florida Net Too Wide in Purge of Voter Rolls"

    http://dir.salon.com/politics/feature/2000...tml?sid=1001834 - "Eliminating Fraud--Or Democrats?"

    Alright, so we've got 173,000 people removed before the voting started, and 57,700 people blacklisted after they voted. That's 220,700 people whose vote was taken on them, or they didn't even get to vote at all. Surely, with a large percentage of them being african americans (90% are democrats), Gore would've won the election. It's blatantly obvious.

    Of course any initial recounts would've shown that Bush won (even by a slim 537 vote margin), because the votes weren't even there to count (well, at least 173,000 votes from people who weren't allowed to vote at all, and then there were the 57,700 people who were allowed to vote who had their vote taken on them). Another blatantly obvious fact.

    Edit: And you can call any news source you want biased. How would you know whther a UK newspaper is biased or not? Give me a break.
     
  19. #79



    The Guardian article aimed to make the same point as the link you posted. Had all ballots been included and another recount been allowed, Gore would've won the elections.

    Should we believe those Florida certified stats to be true just because they're certified?! They were certified by the co-chair of his state campaign. The entire election ended up being dependant on a state whose governor is Bush's own brother.

    Another thing. The "butterfly ballot" was designed by Theresa LePore, a Republican who switched her affiliation to Democrat in 1996. Three months after Bush took office, she then switched her voter registration to Independent.

    The "butterfly ballot" was designed during the time when she was a Democrat. That's why it received approval by the Democrats themselves.
     
  20. #80
    enfestid

    enfestid Guest




    Please tell me you're joking, Mark. The Gaurdian is known to be a heavily biased source against Bush, just go read some of their articles! You give me a break. The whole point in being politically active is to read multiple sources, no matter how biased they are -- which is what I do. He found the article on their website... exactly how am I not supposed to do the same? The Gaurdian's website isn't exactly small.

    Will respond to the rest later, have to go up to the track and run.
     

Share This Page