Discussion in 'Serious Chat' started by hawk, Jul 4, 2010.
If you're interesting, I have an eBook on The Qur'an and Modern Science.
I'm not interested. Thanks, though.
In other news, did anybody see a couple months back when people thought they found Noah's ark? What ever happened with that?
You're kind of having it both ways there. Let's say I did try to convince a criminal that they were wrong, and I couldn't. I could just chalk it up to his failings as a human, not because I couldn't scare him straight. Just like if I went your way it wouldn't exactly be a given that he'd be bothered.
I really dislike the argument of "if there's no God then what's stopping everyone from being evil?"
Somewhat because I'd like to think that human beings have a little more sense than that. Partially because science tells me that we are social animals by nature and therefore our instincts do not program us to kill one another but to (if anything) facilitate and encourage each others' survival. MOSTLY because it scares me to think that if we were to ever disprove God that all these people who use that argument would go on huge homicidal killing sprees...
So, without an end reason, many people won't want to.
You tell this super criminal that it's against humanity, and he'd just ask who wrote the rules of humanity? Why should they care?
He doesn't need to care. Some people have problems. Not everybody has a moral compass. That's part of the reason some people commit crimes. Which is a reason they go to jail and are kept away from society.
Right. If you were wronged, wouldn't you want some sort of justice?
Also, you were saying about logic, science and religion. Is it logical that 1,400 years ago, an illiterate shepherd was able to correctly guess that animals miles underwater have light? Or about the big bang? And more.
I'm sure there were many people who guessed many things. Just like there are today. And you don't need to know how to read to understand those two things. Again, how are you going to source something that is 1,400 years old? Everything has been doctored by now to religion's benefit.
God created the Heavens and the Earth, and Humans.....where do the dinosaurs fit in? Thats a pretty big hole.
Also, people who say that there must be a creator because of the position of the Earth and stuff, well, think of it in scientific way.
He created the creatures apparently. But I believe Evolution created creatures.
Hmm....but there is still a gap. God created Man at the same time he created Earth, if the dinosaurs were created at the same time, how come we don't date back to living that long, and how came we don't remember anything? It would have been passed down, wouldn't it?
I believe in Karma though.
Not necessarily. I honestly don't see how whether it comes from God or humanity itself is automatically going to make a difference. And as I've already said my "end reason" is in this life, not an afterlife that could just as well not exist.
To think that ones moral compass should be provided by religion scares the shit out of me. Sure, there are some good things that might have come out of religion but the majority of it that I can see is just complete and utter insanity. Death, Prejudice, Hatred, Fear, etc. Some types of religion exclude this, as Zen Buddhism, and mostly humanism-humanist etc, and atheism I say could be categorized as a religion once it goes into anti-theism, as it would be a dogmatic mission to try to deconvert people.
Anyway back to my point on the moral compass. I use to be religious, quite a bit actually and I'm going to tell you right now, religion in my very own personal opinion made me a worse person, it made me somewhat intolerant and just a big asshole, until one day I got this itching feeling in the back of my head and I was like, this doesn't really make any sense. No, I did not become an atheist in a day, nor in a week, in fact, I struggled with my beliefs for years going through different religions as if they were crisps. Finally, I accepted I didn't believe in any type of God and labeled myself as Zen Buddhist, as I really felt comfortable with a lot of that religion and I liked the fact that I didn't need to be dogmatic or believe in any type of deity. Now I just label myself as an atheist because well, it clarify my beliefs for people who want to know. My only concept of God is that there is none. It's not rejecting, it's not a belief, it's a lack of belief.
So, thinking I was a pretty good person while I was religious actually helped me to realize how stupid I was being about some things after I became an atheist. I'm a very open-minded person today, who bases his morals on what is right, and that is derived from "Does it hurt anyone?", it also allowed me to accept that I was Bi-sexual after being told again and again how wrong it was to be anything other than heterosexual.
This rant is getting pretty long so I'll try to summarize now. 1. Life is bullshit. 2. Death is bullshit also. But you make the best out of life, and you just keep the memories of the dead. 3. You don't need religion to have ethics or morals. 4. People who are good people mostly due to their religion are scary to me. 5. I rather they have their religion because as they point out, they confess they'd have no reason to be moral and that is very frightening to me.
And in conclusion, I'd like to apologize if I had offended anyone. If I were to give myself a religion as of today it'd be "Science" and my soul would be my "Conscious" and my "afterlife" would be my body decaying and giving life to other things. and my sense of "forever" would be past, because past is infinite. Even if there is a time when Nothing exist, there would still be a point when there was Time, and that will never go away. Sure it will be totally and utmost irrelevant since there would be nothing to remember it, but the fact is that it would still be because it is, and it is. So Past is Infinite and the only thing that doesn't have a death.
I think everyone has there own religion. Something that they belief in. 2 people can be christian but are going to have agrees and disagrees. I believe what i believe and im not one to say you are wrong. I dont think anyone should be forced onto a religion but find "god" on there own. I think everyone has there own personal relationship with what they believe.
I think if i could pick a religion i like it would be the religion they created in the tv show SUPERNATURAL on how they twist it up. How not everything is what the bible says.
So I was thinking about the question, who created God if He was the ultimate creator (Christian/Catholic Wise) and going back to a Psalm statement I got jumbled up.
In a long story cut short:
I thought this was about death, not the questioning of God.
The main points so far is that if a thing does not physically exist, then one cannot use the tools of science to prove it. Since we cannot deductively prove, we must inference as a way to reason.
I'm not going to say science will prove it all, we're discovering new things and all. However, one thing I know for sure about is that Truth will never change. (Logic! Subjectivity.)
I've yet to change my belief about death.
We do have a soul, it does exist without the body, while we have our body, and after the body.
Sure, a soul might be an immaterial thing. But some immaterial things are important. Sight is important. Is it not true that sight will exist, regardless whether the eye is there, or if it went blind? Isn't it also the same for a boat? What is a boat without it's sailors? Quite obviously, A "lifeless" boat, and uncontrolled. Is it not the same for humans then? A soul will exist, whether or not the body is there, or if it were to be injured. A body without a soul would be quite frankly, "lifeless."
Not lifeless in the literal-sense though. It'd still live, and go with the flow, however, it wouldn't have its own strong sense of self.
As for all this debate that got us side-tracked plenty of pages? I take a stand near switchback/Sarah as a believer. Are we wrong to do so? Absolutely not. For it does not make us better than you, nor you than us.
And honestly, the debate will never end, no matter what. It's not going to end now, nor will it end soon (unless 2012 comes around and...yeah.. What year is it again? )
So therefore: No. Not checkmate, Atheist! Stalemate.
There is no real evidence of an actual soul though - electrical impulses? yes. But not for a "soul." As you have stated, "if a thing does not physically exist, then one cannot use the tools of science to prove it." And also, sight has to do with seeing, which one cannot do without the use of an eye; so if you are blind, then sight does not exist for you.
You prefer science over moral beliefs?
Ever heard the saying "The Eyes Are The Gateway to Your Soul"? You don't have to see to see into someone's soul. It's a literal meaning. It's like saying you need to be able to talk to talk, when there are other forms of speaking like sign language. There's other literal ways of seeing other with your eyes.
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