2012 Vote

Discussion in 'Serious Chat' started by Erica, Sep 24, 2011.

  1. Todd

    Todd FLǕGGȦ∂NKđ€ČHIŒβǾLʃÊN LPA Administrator

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    If you don't want government, may I suggest moving to Somalia? I hear boating in the Gulf of Aden is wonderful this time of year.
     
  2. Benjamin

    Benjamin LPA team LPA Super VIP

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    Do you really mean that?
     



  3. I'll be honest, Obama wasn't the best president America has had, but electing any of the Republican candidates will probably cause a lot more damage to more than just the economy. Mitt Romney, Michele Bachmann... you name it.
    At least most of Obama's policies aren't extreme or unreasonable. However, he needs to be more agressive towards the Republicans. The recent defecit bill was a joke.
     
  4. Todd

    Todd FLǕGGȦ∂NKđ€ČHIŒβǾLʃÊN LPA Administrator

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    A Day In The Life Of Joe Republican

    Joe gets up at 6:00 AM to prepare his morning coffee. He fills his pot with good, clean drinking water because some liberal fought for minimum water quality standards. He takes his daily medication with his first swallow of coffee. His medications are safe to take because some liberal fought to insure their safety and that they work as advertised.

    All but $10.00 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical plan. Because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance, now Joe gets it too. He prepares his morning breakfast -- bacon and eggs this day. Joe's bacon is safe to eat because some liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.

    Joe takes his morning shower, reaching for his shampoo. His bottle is properly labeled with every ingredient and the amount that is contains because some liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and the breakdown of its contents.

    Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some tree-hugging liberal fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air. He walks to the subway station for his government-subsidized ride to work; it saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees. You see, some liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

    Joe begins his work day; he has a good job with excellent pay, medicals benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe's employer meets these standards because Joe's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed he'll get worker's compensation or an unemployment check because some liberal didn't think he should loose his home to temporary misfortune.

    It's noon time. Joe needs to make a bank deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FDIC because some liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the depression. Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae underwritten mortgage and his below market federal student loan because some stupid liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his lifetime.

    Joe is home from work. He plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive to dads; his car is among the safest in the world because some liberal fought for car safety standards. He arrives at his boyhood home. He was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans. The house didn't have electric until some big government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification (those rural Republican's would still be sitting in the dark).

    Joe is happy to see his dad, who is now retired. Joe's dad lives on Social Security and his union pension because some liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn't have to. After his visit with dad, Joe gets back in his car for the ride home. He turns on a radio talk show. The host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. He doesn't tell Joe that his beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day. Joe agrees, "We don't need those big government liberals ruining our lives. After all, I'm a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have."
     
  5. Tim

    Tim My perversion power is accumulating LPA Super Member

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    Just remember: There isn't any problem that cannot be solved by 100% laissez-faire capitalism. And I mean pure capitalism -- no nuance, no shades of gray. Only dogmatic adherence to rigid ideology will suffice. Anything less is just a short train ride to Stalintown.

    Keep that in mind, and you will save yourself a lot of time and energy.
     
  6. SuperDude526

    SuperDude526 Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the deficit bill looks like a joke on the surface, but it's something of a blessing in disguise, and a big win for Democrats. In a month or so (I believe), the House and Senate will vote on a tax rate increase. There's a "bullet" in the August-edition bill that states that if Republicans in either Congressional house turn down the tax increase, they must allow a significant military budget cut, no ifs, ands, or buts.
     
  7. travz21

    travz21 Muscle Museum LPA Super Member

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    The lack of knowledge is astounding. We deserve all of the bad things that are coming our way.
     
  8. Todd

    Todd FLǕGGȦ∂NKđ€ČHIŒβǾLʃÊN LPA Administrator

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    [video=youtube;7QDv4sYwjO0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QDv4sYwjO0[/video]
     
  9. travz21

    travz21 Muscle Museum LPA Super Member

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    A Day In The Life Of Joe Democrat

    Joe gets up at 6:00 AM to prepare his morning coffee. He fills his pot with good, clean drinking water, and he thanks the Democratic party for it, because he's been lied to and told that those who promote the free market are opposed to government building infrastructure and regulating utilities. He takes his daily medication with his first swallow of coffee. His medications are more expensive because some socialist fought to insure that every new drug had to go through an expensive government approval process that closed the door to innovative new ways to test drug safety. Joe thinks that it's thanks to Democrats that the drug works as advertised, because he's been manipulated into believing that in a free market, there are no laws against fraud and false advertising.

    All but $10.00 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical plan. Because some socialist union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance, now Joe gets it too. Joe would get higher wages instead in a free market, but he doesn't know that. He thinks that there is no down-side to forcing employers to give more benefits. He prepares his morning breakfast -- bacon and eggs this day. Joe's bacon is created in a factory farm and filled with hormones, because some socialist fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry that imposed enormous costs on small farms while subsidizing agribusiness.

    Joe takes his morning shower, reaching for his shampoo. He thinks that the reason his bottle is properly labeled with every ingredient and the amount that is contains because some socialist fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and the breakdown of its contents, and doesn't realize that in a free market, producers will respond to any demand by consumers, including comprehensive labeling of ingredients, that will give them more business.

    Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. He thinks the air he breathes is clean because some tree-hugging socialist fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air, because he's been told by the Democratic party his whole life that in a free market, it's legal to pollute your neighbors property and air. He walks to the subway station for his government-subsidized ride to work; it saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees, but of course it costs him in taxes, yet he doesn't realize it. You see, some socialist fought for affordable public transportation, not realizing that the money that it takes in way of taxes takes away every bit of opportunity that it gives.

    Joe begins his work day; he has a good job with excellent pay, medicals benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because of enormous per worker productivity, which has long since been stagnant, because some socialist union members fought and killed "scabs" to abolish contract liberty, which has reduced the ability of people to increase productivity. Joe thinks that his employer meets these standards because of labor regulations, but it's actually because Joe's employer doesn't want his workers to go off and work for a different company. If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed he'll get worker's compensation or an unemployment check, even though he would prefer to forgo that insurance in exchange for a higher wage. He has no choice though because some socialist didn't think he should be able to choose what terms are included in an employment offer. Some socialist thought that four weeks paid vacation instead of a higher salary is in every one's best interest, so Joe has to lounge around for two extra weeks a year, instead of working hard and saving money like he wants to so he can start his new business.

    It's noon time. Joe needs to make a bank deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FDIC because some socialist wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the depression. In reality, the FDIC gives even the most poorly run bank guaranteed business, since the risk of a bank run is transferred on to the general population. This lets the big banks act as irresponsibly as they want. Joe doesn't understand this, because he doesn't realize that government programs socialize costs, and lead to every one else paying for every individual's mistakes. Joe has to pay higher taxes because Fannie Mae lost $200 billion guaranteeing mortgages that never should have been issued. Some some stupid socialist decided that socializing the cost of a mortgage default would create a more humane economy, when all it did was allow exploitation of the general population on a grand scale.

    Joe is home from work. He plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive to dads; his car is more expensive than it should be because some socialist fought to mandate that every car produced go through a government-designed safety verification managed by a wasteful bureaucracy before being allowed to be sold, even though car companies far exceed government safety standards in order to attract customers. He arrives at his boyhood home. It's a low income community that was created because the government, through the Farmers Home Administration, subsidized homes built in rural areas, by taxing the rest of the economy. Joe would have had a better home in the city, and live in a country with a better economy, if it weren't for government's attempt to plan the economy, but Joe doesn't understand this. He doesn't understand the costs of government subsidies.

    Joe is happy to see his dad, who is now retired. Joe's dad lives on Social Security, that pays significantly less than what he would receive if he had been free to invest on his own, because some socialist made sure he couldn't make his own investment decisions, and believed that government debt was the best investment.
     
  10. SuperDude526

    SuperDude526 Well-Known Member

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    Oh dear...

    I'm just gonna pick one, the Social Security bit: can he not do both? It is possible to buy government bonds and put into the system.

    You're so scared of socialism it's worrisome.
     
  11. Amanda

    Amanda RIP Chester LPA Super VIP

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    Uh... Well then. I feel like this post was fueled primarily by something unrelated to the topic so I'm only going to formally address the first part.

    It's not so much that I'm "too busy" as it is that it's not something I consistently think about. "Research 2012 candidates" isn't very high up on my to-do list. I'm more concerned with work, school and getting all of my ducks in a row to graduate on time.
    And, to be entirely honest, I'm not particularly concerned with who does or does not win. In my eyes, presidential elections are a lot like the Philadelphia Eagles' football season. It starts off promising with a lot of talk of change and improvement but in the end, when it's all said and done, it's the same, horrible bullshit ultimately ending in a fiery inferno of failure and a bunch of really pissed off people bitching about how awful everything is going.
     
  12. Dean

    Dean LPA Super Member LPA Addict

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    What part of this hasn't already been addressed? I'm not explaining it a third time. If you don't want to vote, don't vote.

    To say nothing of how you seem to think that every other thing I ever say is some kind of passive aggressive stab at you for some reason. Please grow up.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2011
  13. travz21

    travz21 Muscle Museum LPA Super Member

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    What do you mean "can"? He's forced to pay into Social Security. He wants to have all that money to save or spend as he sees fit. And he can invest on his own, but the majority of his investing money went into Social Security. And when he actually gets paid back out, it's only worth a portion of what it was when he paid in thanks to inflation. And what happens if he dies at 65 instead of 80? What happens if the bankrupt system of SS finally stops being able to pay people? The amount of risk and lack of return is worrisome for a "security". Let people risk their own money for their retirement.

    Bring up more points you wish to talk about. You're the only one here who is capable of debating.
     
  14. Dean

    Dean LPA Super Member LPA Addict

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    I don't think people here have a problem with debating so much as suffering fools.

    All credit to Super Dude, I'm thinking sainthood is in order for him after this thread.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2011
  15. SuperDude526

    SuperDude526 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure where you'd get that idea; in fact I feel I'm the least capable of those here.
     
  16. travz21

    travz21 Muscle Museum LPA Super Member

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    This is Art Laffer. A big shot economist who in 2006 didn't have a clue that the economy was in trouble. And that's Peter Schiff. An Austrian-school investor who in 2006 knew very well that the economy was going to tank. Because he understands economics. I put this up here because time has proven Art Laffer to be a clueless clown rather than an economist and I think that anything he likes is likely to be poison for the economy. So when he came out saying he thought Cain's plan was great, I felt totally vindicated.

    [youtube]LfascZSTU4o[/youtube]
     
  17. Vriska

    Vriska Wiki Staff LPA VIP

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    If the free-market provided everything, nobody would have cried and protested and yelled at the government to regulate it in the first place.

    I don't have time to address everything, but I'll just single out the product labeling: why didn't the free market provide this in the late 1800's? Why did "The Jungle" have to exist in the first place? Why did it take an uprising of liberals* to make the government create the FDA before labeling existed? Because in social Darwinism you don't have to be the fast, you only have to be faster than everybody else.

    *(at that time, progressives were conservative because laissez-faire was the new thing in town, instead of how it is today)
     
  18. travz21

    travz21 Muscle Museum LPA Super Member

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    I'll get to that later today. Have to run off now. In the meantime, here's an interesting find my friend made.

    When the US income tax was first introduced in 1913, it was 1% for people making less than $453,292, which is $10,372,832 in today's dollars (using gov't inflation numbers: http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm). It was 2% for people who made up to $1,133,230, which is $25,932,080 in today's dollars. Today, the middle class pays up to 35%. It is taken for granted that the state owns our labor and gives a portion of it back to us.

    Obama even refers to tax increases as "spending cuts in the tax code". This is why I'm against Herman Cain's 9% federal sales tax: It will grow over time. In New Hampshire, state motto Live Free or Die, there is no sales tax, and implementing a 9% federal sales tax might even lead to secession.

    http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html
     
  19. Apop

    Apop LPA VIP LPA VIP

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    In terms of government regulation, it's important but not always necessary. Standards for health and well-being must be set to preserve the safety of the people (that is government's role, after all), however, I am against the over-extended nature of some limits and bureaucracy today. For instance, it took well over two dozen permits and re-inspections for my family and I to put a pool in the backyard of my home. As if taxes and such were not enough in the whole process, the hundreds of dollars spent on inspectors and the ridiculousness of some of the standards is, quite frankly, outrageous. I realize certain regulations like this vary from state to state, and I can only speak for New Jersey, but some things just get out of hand.

    As for Social Security and IRAs, it must first be stated that in 1935 when the Social Security Act was passed, there was no plan to keep it fully functioning for over 70 years. Primarily, it was to serve as a way for those who suffered during the great depression and couldn't focus on saving, since the goal was to survive, to have a backbone and some form of income. While throughout the early 20th century, families did live closer to one another with, often times, three generations living under one roof, it was important to have financial stability. Presently, with the implementation of suburbs and retirement communities, the elderly more often than not move out from their children. The realization now has to be that it is damn near impossible to live comfortably and healthily with an income purely from Social Security checks at 67. Investing for retirement needs to be put on the individual, the government should slowly, but surely, dissolve the bankrupting system. However, with so many people dependent on unemployment and various welfare systems that go hand-and-hand with Social Security, doing such a task will be troublesome for the politicians since they will very well lose votes.

    Either way you look at it, the 2012 Presidential Race will more than likely go to Obama with such a lack of strong candidates coming from the Republican Party. Ron Paul seems to be the only one running with a platform that could defeat Obama's agenda, however, many of his policies are thought to be too extreme to get any serious media coverage which means low polls. One person whom, I believe, could have certainly stirred things up is Chris Christie since he is very straight-forward and easy to relate to. He could have easily run on the "average, working-class drinking buddy" appearance that helped Bush win two terms. Unfortunately, with his decision not to run, it seems Obama has pretty clear chance for re-election.
     
  20. travz21

    travz21 Muscle Museum LPA Super Member

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    It's a myth that people protested and yelled at the government to regulate the free market. We've never had a free market. At our founding, governments managed the seas and the movement of goods (e.g.). The railroads were heavily subsidized with land grants. The banking system was never free in this country (only relatively more free than it is today).

    And those clamoring for regulation were those who wanted protection from upstart competitors.

    As leftist-liberal Gabriel Kolko showed, the meat packing safety laws, and other laws, were agitated for by the largest meat packing corporations, as a way of making it harder for their smaller competitors to compete.

    As far as food labeling, years before the first laws requiring the labeling of pet food, there were already companies labeling their pet food, which revealed their ingredients. I don't know for sure, but I bet it was those same pet food manufacturers who agitated for federally mandated, industry-wide, pet food labeling.

    So in short, the subjects of the regulation were the biggest advocates for regulation, in order to burden smaller competitors disproportionately. Oh, and "The Jungle", it should be remembered, was a work of fiction, albeit one that greatly influenced government policy.
     

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