I actually have to contradict you on this, and tell you that he supports the overturning of Prop 8. I love you Adam, but for christ's sake, get over it.
This is definitely a step in the right direction. I am very glad that this was overturned, because I believe that everyone should have equal rights regardless of their sexual orientation. If two men or two women want to spend the rest of their lives together married, then who are we to stop them? They are people too. Now, here's where things get controversial, and I just want to bring this point up because I think it's interesting. I think the biggest reason why people don't believe gays or lesbians should marry is because the institution of marriage, for a *long* time, was solely a religious institution. Think about it. It wasn't really until the past century where marriage became not only religious, but civil. Dictionaries now do the right thing in defining marriage in both senses. Via dictionary.com: However, the argument amongst most conservatives is that (and obviously so) marriage is purely a religious institution. And being a purely religious institution, marriage is truly between a man and a woman (keep in mind that I don't believe that before anyone starts hating on me ). So, the debate, I don't think, should be around whether or not gays are allowed to marry, but more so to define what marriage is. Is it a legal union, or a religious one? It's up to you guys to discuss that. Personally, I believe it's both. If you're truly a religious person, then fine, good thing that most (if not all) religions are pretty much together on that whole straight-marriage only thing. You should have no problem (unless you're gay, in which case you can rely on the legal aspect and not give a fuck about what your holy scripture says). If you're not religious, then that shouldn't matter as well. You can get married to pretty much whoever you want. I guess it's just that most right-wings tend to be fairly religious, but right-wings also tend to stick to the Constitution as it is. And wasn't it Thomas Jefferson who once wrote in a letter that the 1st amendment creates a wall of separation between church and state? So, I would think it makes sense that if you're a politically active conservative, you would acknowledge this. But, that doesn't happen. It seems as though a lot of conservatives tend to implement their religious beliefs into their actions politically, which violates the very essence of the separation of church and state. And I don't really know if many of those people know their history, but there's a good reason why governing institutions stopped being religious and became civil. By doing so, you eliminate the persecution and discrimination (however unintentional) against others who don't follow the same religion as the Church. A civil, political government is intended to give everyone equal rights and practice whichever religion they please, so long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights of others. Many people seem to forget about that infringement part. That's just my two cents. I suppose the rest is up to you discuss. Like Todd says, I hope that all 50 states follow and allow for gay marriage, because they are people too and should not be deprived of such an important right that many Americans and people around the world value today.
The simple solution is to get the government out of the marriage business. They should do civil unions for everybody, gay or straight. The civil union has all the benefits of marriage (tax, inheritance, hospital visitation, insurance, etc) but it's not called marriage. Strike any mention of the word "marriage" from the law. Then, if you want to get married, which is purely a symbolic, religious thing, then you go do that. But make them two completely separate things. That way, it's equal for everybody, and no one can bitch that the government is ruining traditional marriage because the government has nothing to do with marriage.
Edit. Instead of that pie chart I'll post this quote. Seriously, people should be allowed to marry any gender. Transsexual, Male, Female, whatever. it's not really anyone's choice to deny that freedom.
Exactly! I'm a guy that does think it's somewhat weird but I'm still for people that want to marry the same sex. It's their right! Why do so many people give a fuck?
This is a step in the best direction, but this is not the change we should hope for and work towards. The erosion and eventual dismissal of bigotry and prejudice in our collective psyche is a slow, energy intensive, process and it cannot be doled out, nor created by, the court system in our country. Change begins from the bottom up, and we should keep that in mind as we consider decisions such as these.
Yeah, the problem, and the disturbing thing is that this was put into law in the first place. I can *almost* understand not choosing to "legalize" or honor gay marriage, but completely dropping the coy shit and outright actively seeking to BAN it? I can't find the words. I was blown away then and absolutely shocked when it passed.
Just because you want to get married doesn't always mean you want to procreate though. Marriage is defined as a love so extreme between two people that they legally show their love. No one said about what sexual orientation you had to be to get married.
It's funny, because supporters of Prop 8 say that the law was supposed to encourage procreation. Which is absolute bullshit, because heterosexual marriage was never threatened, and people can fuck and make babies whenever they want to. It's as if the supporters are saying, "Because we passed this law, people will think, "Oh good, gays can't marry, let's fuck and have a kid!" and do so." It's amazing how stupid some people are.
It's great to see that now that this has been overturned, those who voted for it in the first place feel that THEIR rights are violated and their votes mean nothing. Not to mention the politicians and groups claiming they're throwing out what "The American people" want. Whether you're left, right, democrat or republican, statements like "What the American people want" or "America is tired of" or any use of the American people as a whole to make a point should be stricken from use. It's purely a statement to throw in regardless of the percentage it actually represents (52% being in favor of Prop 8 in California. Not exactly "The American People" if you ask me.) to make your cause sound relevant and right. They're complaining about a system of checks and balances, making sure laws are just and don't step on people's rights, as it's SUPPOSED to be done according to our constitution. Conservatives are always throwing out talk about "our forefathers" and what "our forefathers" would have wanted, but when it comes to the homo sex getting married, fuck that shit, right? The law violates rights, and that's plain and simple fact. Fact, as determined by a judge who certainly would know a lot more about the constitution than the shit kicking bible-thumpers who claim it's being thrown out the window. Debating it is completely pathetic. Then again, they've never allowed themselves to be held back by things like "facts" amirite? If you want to be full-on high school level basic about it, you can think back to the principle of "Tyranny of the majority". It's the concept that just because a majority vote is made in favor of something, it doesn't have to be validated if it violates the rights of the minority or is otherwise inhumane. These are simple concepts that are being thrown out the window by ignorant, stubborn, manipulative people.
Hells yeah I'm so glad that California is making progress. The appeals process has me worried though. Who thinks this is gonna make it to the Supreme Court? Also, WTH is it with the conservatives getting all "The people's voice have been ignored!" and crap. 52% is technically bigger than 48%, but it's only two measly percent over evenly tied. Its not even statistically a majority. Why the heck is it so easy to modify the California Constitution to start with? And why do these people not understand what checks and balances is?
As I said, claiming something is what "the people" want is purely strategic deception. And if this makes it to the supreme court and is reversed, and the law is put back in place, I've officially given up. Mark these words.
Of course it'll make it to the Supreme Court. It's going to get appealed now, of course, and go on to the 9th Circuit. No matter what the result, there is no doubt that it will be appealed again, and the Supreme Court will most likely take this ruling considering it's so controversial. If the Supreme Court knows what it's doing, it will do as the judge in California and declare shit like Prop 8 unconstitutional across the United States. If not, I will have lost faith in the Supreme Court. My faith has already been shaken considering the shit they pulled with the Citizens United case. That was fucking bullshit.
There's a good chance that the Supreme Court will rule that a ban on gay marriage is unconstitutional via Kennedy and a 5-4ths majority decision in it's favor. This is basically what you have.. 4 Conservatives 4 Liberals (or Democrats) 1. Swinger Kennedy is the swing vote but it's very doubtful that he will vote in favor of a ban due to his past on this subject. I don't really see how the court could get away with approving of a ban really..
Well, if the court got away with that Citizens United case, I wouldn't be surprised if they got away with declaring a ban on gay marriage constitutional!
No, I wouldn't be surprised either. I'm just giving the facts and trying to be logical about it all.. It's just that statistically there is more of a chance that a ban is declared unconstitutional.. though we all know that sometimes statistics and facts seem not to matter... eh, it's very depressing.
The problem is when it gets to the Supreme Court. It might take a few years to get there. There's no guarantee Obama will be re-elected in 2012, and the variable is Ruth Bader Ginsburg. She's a 77 year old cancer survivor. She says she's not going to retire anytime soon, but given her age and health, who knows how long she'll be around for. If a Republican has to replace her, then we're back to the conservative majority on the court. I hope Ginsburg will change her mind and retire sometime in 2011 or early 2012 to give Obama a chance to appoint her replacement, especially knowing Prop 8 is going to get up to the SC.
Watch: Overturned (current), Appealed (soon to happen), Overturned.. etc. I can't wait to see what happens, as I'm looking forward to the appeal.
Completely agree that Prop 8 is unconstitutional, GOP has got it wrong here, but the method used to legalize it is just as unconstitutional as the Proposition itself... Complete disregard for the Rule of Law, the legislative process... Some backbencher judge overturned a Law that was voted on by the people of the State, and whether or not you agree with the Law this particular judge did not have the right to overturn this ruling. Sets a horrible precedent, we can't let these activist judges destroy the legislative process. They're doing the same thing with the EPA, trying to slip in these regulations behind our backs because they know we'd never allow our elected officials to get them through