you have to understand that a lot of people are scared of death and also of desperation of loosing a child, its only possible to understand when you are a parent yourself, i dont want to sound patronizing, but before i had my child i could not imagine the depth of love for ones child, only intelectually but not emotionally. its something incredible.its hard for those parents to let go of the hope that they can hold on to the life of their baby. you also have to be satisfied that you have done all that you can or you have a feeling that you will have failed. when a child dies a hell of parents go thru guilt of 'have i done enough to prevent it?' they might have had, but the guilt is there. if you are scared of death you might also be scared of others you love to go there, so any form of life seems a better option. for me i am not scared, i have had near death experience and will welcome it, but still its my greatest fear to loose my child to death. the feeling i could never hold her again, to hear her laughter, to hear her jokes (like what did aladin rub to make the genee come out? her answer.... his jeans) etc.... pains me. now put yourself in the shoes of those guys. to them they cannot see that they might make their baby suffer by those means, they might see it as giving her a chance to live and themselves a chance to love her. to you it might seem as suffering, and to many others too, but in the end of the day they are the parents of the child and they have to decide to best of their conscience......
i understand wanting the child to live, but the parents are making the child suffer. she does not have to go through all that pain. she (and i don't believe in this but i know others do) can go to a better place and she won't hurt anymore. if it was my child, i would take her off. same reason why i am going to sign a dnr as soon as i turn 18. living on life support with no chance of recovery is not living anymore.
not under these circumstances iamrighthereandnow: whats more important, a child's health or its parents' conscience? just because its in the parents' best interest doesnt mean its in the child's.
pyromaniak..... who can decide to take or give life? who decides what is in the interest of health? who has the perfect answer to what is helpful to do? does anybody actually know if the baby is in pain or is it our assumption, can we on basis of assumption decide to switch off life? can we decide what is in best interest of others when only a handful of us does what is in best interest for oneself? for us its easier to say what to do, what i am saying is, for the parents who are in those shoes its pretty hard, they will live with the consequences, not me or you, or nobody on this forum.
that is very true. however, things are not like that. you have to assume the baby is in pain, what if she is but you thought she wasn't? life sucks, but if you can make it better for her, then you should. she should not have to suffer. that is what i think. i am against the death penalty and i am against abortion and i think killing her is wrong, but i don't see another option. keeping her alive is torturing her.
thats what the doctors were for, and that is why they informed the parents that it is against the child's interest to let her live. she cant eat or breathe naturally, she can never leave the hospital, and she wont even survive infancy. how can you say she can live to enjoy life? these parents arent doctors or any sort of medical experts, they obviously dont realize or are ignoring the fact that she wont be able to live. being overly optimistic is unhealthy and not only affects your life, but others as well.
But the point is the parents believe it....and if they believe it, should they let go of the baby anyway?
just because the parents believe it doesnt mean its true. by the way, theres a quote button on the top right hand corner every post so you dont have to copy and paste and your quotes wont turn out weird
pyromaniak, doctors dont know everything under the sun, few centuries they thought to blood you out to cure any disease. doctors are human beings and medicine might be on better level then those centuries back, but few centuries forward and todays practice might look barbaric as well. and being human doesnt mean a doctor is omniscient like God if you believe in a being that knows it all. you have all you have and would not want to loose it and you think the life the baby has is pitiful, yet for that baby is all she knows, is she regretting something she has never had? and if she will eventually die then is granting her more time to be loved by somebody in this world so bad?we avoid pain like mad, yet is feeling it so bad, if that's all you ever had. a lot of people subject themselves to a miserable existence they can get out of any time, yet they will not. even a pain has attachments, will not discuss psychology of that here in lenght. when i nearly died, doctors said i will never walk, i not only walk, i run,i am not even crippled whatsover, these days i just have to pacify my spine with yoga when it gets to hurt, they said i might not be alive, here i am. i have a friend who did the same against all doctors prognosis and diagnosis by sheer will power. he has to exercise everyday of his life and he sure as hell does it. where there is a will to live, there life prevails. my last word is, the decision belongs to those who are in that situation whatever we think or feel about it.
You're right to a certain extent, look at it from the point of the child, not the parent. She's in pain. She's not even living. She needs all kinds of thing just to survive. The parents are kinda selfish to make her live and suffer, they are trying to see that she continues living because they don't want her to die, and have to go through the pain. They just don't want to go through pain. That's a little selfish. Not wanting your child to die just so you don't have to experience the pain of losing the child. I say, if she fails for the fourth time, like what the article says, for ####'s sake, it's the baby's way of saying "Ok. I'm suffering, I want out. Just let me go."
your circumstances and the baby's is not necessarily the same. this is a breathing issue, not just something like walking. if youre crippled, you cant walk. if you cant breathe, you die. theres a huge difference. and theres a lot more of a difference between modern medicine and centuries ago. we actually have medicine and knowledge of science, whereas back then they did not. although i see where youre getting at, its not really that relevant for a contradiction of the fact that doctors know what they are doing. besides, even though doctors dont know everything for sure, you can pretty much use common sense to tell that the baby is not going to live.
Well if people shouldn't be allowed to decide upon the continuity of a life... then shouldn't the baby already be dead? From the start, the baby had low risk of living, yet the doctors try to keep them alive. If they aren't allowed to decide on life, the baby would have already died. No one can know if the baby is in pain, but the fact that she has already 'died' 3 times is a big hint. The parents should just let her go now and save themselves the pain. Knowing the truth of what'll happen is easier to live with than the broken hope that came during all those months of thinking of the best. Living creatures aren't born to suffer. Those who are are unfortunate, and it's in the best interests to let them go. No one should have to suffer the horrors of inaction, of not being able to enjoy anything.
You're right to a certain extent, look at it from the point of the child, not the parent. She's in pain. She's not even living. She needs all kinds of thing just to survive. The parents are kinda selfish to make her live and suffer, they are trying to see that she continues living because they don't want her to die, and have to go through the pain. They just don't want to go through pain. That's a little selfish. Not wanting your child to die just so you don't have to experience the pain of losing the child. I say, if she fails for the fourth time, like what the article says, for ####'s sake, it's the baby's way of saying "Ok. I'm suffering, I want out. Just let me go." [/b][/quote] that is what i was saying. and @minus xero, the doctors should have stopped as soon as they knew that there was not going to be a chance of her living. she is being tortured and it needs to stop. does anyone have an updated news thing on her yet?
Whoa, back up there. Talking about torture is very extreme and jugemental. I can understand if you think the baby is better off dead--because i'm not so sure myself--but you're basically saying the doctors and parents are torturing her, and thats very cruel of you. Imagine if those parents came here and read your comment. You can think they should let go of the baby without judging the parents to the point that you start accusing them of torture. They're in an extremely painful situation themselves. What worse pain is there than losing your own baby, who was just born?
what worse pain is there than losing your own babay who was just born? how about suffocating 3 times, being in pain all the time, and having to life in a hospital for the rest of your life which wont last past infancy. if you dont think that is torture, then its safe to say that you are insane. saying that shes tortured is not very extreme or judgemental because this is an extreme issue. torture: -To bring great physical or mental pain upon (another). -Something causing severe pain or anguish. -Excruciating physical or mental pain. now, is this baby not going through physical pain? even mental pain. i think torture is the correct word to describe what she is going through.
pyromaniak, torture is when you do it deliberately and with malicious intent. if you are saying the parents are torturing her, they you are very wrong on that count. if you accuse them of doing malicious things to their baby, then i would retrace what you said, because that is not their intent to torture their baby. its very wrong to tell people what they should and should not do, its stinks of regimes as communism and nazism in extreme. at minimum, its not healthy. i find your manner towards goso88 rude, to tell somebody they are insane because they differ in their opinion to yours however passionate you are about it, is rude. she or he has complete right to think and express her opinions without having to be called insane. your view is your subjective view, your truth is your truth. it takes courage and guts to be wrong. if you live in 'i have to be right, and i am right and cross out any possibility that you might be wrong' is shutting yourself to tunnelvision, this applies to anybody, not just saying it as you to point a finger at you. i might agree that it would be better to let go now of the baby, but as i keep stressing the decision is up to the people in that situation. if you believe that they should give their opinions entirely to the judgement of the doctors, then you also verge on danger, of being utterly dependent on authority and the system. they are also free to see if there are other alternatives to what the doctors say and if there are not, they have the right to make any decision int their own time. and let me tell you one thing, you are you and nobody else, you are not that baby to be so sure what the baby goes thru. unless you are that baby yourself you are in no position to be a judge to the extent of her feelings. in extreme pain consciousness leaves the body while the body still works.which is a medical fact and one i experienced myself, i am not in a position of the baby, but i say how can anybody be sure her consciousness has left the body already? you said my situation was different as to breathing/walking, well after my accident i went into c..arrest, was brought back, was kept alive by the machines, and was in coma for some time. should my parents have written me off because i was in vegetable stage, shoud they have written me off when i came to and was in extreme pain? should they have written me off when i was told i cant walk? should they not supported the person who gave me hope and took me out to a recovery such that seen me to walk and retreave my health against judment of the medical opinions? they had a right to do so. as much as a right to say goodbye to me. they had a right to take any decision over me. they were in that situation and nobody else and nobody else knew what i was going thru unless they were there themselves and even then each human experience is unique. and we should have a right to be free, which means not be subject of SHOULD BE THIS OR THAT, SHOULD DO THIS OR THAT by other people, we can take advice, but not orders, we should trust ourselves and do whatever we can for ourselves before we are dependent on others, should we need a support, we can ask for it, but its up to us to take it or not. god save us from the day when we became enslaved even beyond the point of slavery we already live in.
Pain and being tortured is different. If you want to look at torture the way you do now, you and I've been tortured so many times its not even funny. I mean, after I underwent lung surgery, I'd get extremely painful shots that seemed to last forever just for the sake of getting more shots. I'm sure you've had to undergo some kind of extreme pain at some point or another too (if not, then your lucky). So if torture is just extreme physical and mental pain, then I was tortured. In fact, many cancer patients in the hospital are being tortured right this minute. But, to me, thats just illogical and slightly silly. I'm not denying the fact that the baby is in pain. Thats the reason I'm hesitant to go out and say the parents should keep fighting to let the baby live. But I'm very, very sure that the parents ARE NOT torturing their baby. As iamrighthereandnow said, being tortured would mean that the parents are doing it deliberately with the malicious intent of causing pain. And nothing could be further from the truth. And if you still insist that torture is anything involving extreme physical/mental pain, well, its safe to say there are plenty of people in the hospital no more than fifteen miles from my house who should start suing left and right. This definition just puts a whole new light on things. I mean, this is a big hospital I'm talking about, and for all you know, some people could be suffering even more. In fact, under this definition of torture, iamrighthereandnow should be very mad right now, because he was tortured. So, in short, I guess I'm insane :wth:
Torture is not necessarily deliberate. Do you think any person would care whether you are torturing them deliberately or otherwise? Does the pain caused really change because of your mindset while you do it? Whether or not it is their intent to torture the baby or not, the point is that it's still torture anyways. Whether or not they are just trying to help them live does not mean it's NOT torture. When someone is bleeding, to help them live, you put salt on the wound to sterilize it, or peroxide. That hurts. It can be torture, if instead of killing someone and letting them die, to keep them alive and put them through excrutiating pain. You speak of what people should and should not do, and how you can't tell people that they should take a course of action... well in essence, these parents are forcing this child to live. She clearly does not, her BODY does not want to go on. Her body has tried to let go three times. And as toward your situation, it is slightly different. For one, you had something to live for. At that time, you already had hopes and dreams, you had a firm connection into this world. You readily choose something that isn't painful to something that is, and that means you chose to fight to go back to what you felt before, all the joy of before the cardiac arrest. You'll do whatever you can to get out of pain, and that means recover or die. As for this girl, she came to under extreme circumstances. All she has known was pain, and the only time she has not experienced pain was when she was dead. There has never been a time while living that pain has not been felt, so how can she choose life? I know that some will argue that she should be given the chance to experience this joy, but we don't have the right to decide, as you have commented. She should have her choice, and her body has apparently chosen death more than once.