You're from the UK though, right? Your conservatives are nothing like our conservatives. Most of our conservatives are complete nutjobs like Hannity, Beck, O'Reilly, Limbaugh, etc. The people in this country who have conservative views but don't want to be associated with these morons typically will not admit to being conservative, they will consider themselves a moderate.
O'Reilly is HARDLY a conservative. He does NOT represent the conservative party at all. He's just a puppet to make people angry and someone amusing to watch. And what the hell was up with that caller calling Rush a "nazi?" That just kinda points out to me that that guy was crazy. Also, the so-called "torture" that enemy combatant terrorists are experiencing...is all psychological. Putting someone on a tilted board and putting some water up their nose makes them THINK that they're drowning, even though they are not. We're not pulling off fingernails or pulling out tongues or chopping off heads. That's torture. Making someone uncomfortable by making them THINK that they're drowning is hardly torture. And people do not die from being psychologically freaked out.
Just because it isn't physical in nature doesn't mean it isn't torture. I hate to get into semantics discussion, but I digress.
But when you compare shoving bamboo under peoples fingernails to scaring someone, does that seem very torturous to you?
I'm not saying waterboarding is comparable to leng tch'e, but it's still torture. And it's effects can be classified as more than just "uncomfortable." The victim is having oxygen deprived from their body, which can cause irreparable damage to the lungs and other vital organs, not to mention asphyxiation -- it isn't strictly psychological.
Yes. Pain isn't just physical. Besides, it doesn't even work. I know if someone was torturing me, I would lie and tell them what they want to hear to get them to stop, even if it was bogus information.
True, people do not die from psychological torture but think of it this way. Physical pain isn't as intense as what your mind can imagine it to be in reality. Also, since I doubt anyone you know would gladly try waterboarding on you. (And if you do, Well... What are the chances eh?) Whenever your taking a shower, put your back against the water and lean your head back. Water will go up your nose and you'll see what it's like. (Or if you have thoes faucet ones, when you turn it on, put oyur head under it and be sure to be looking at the faucet.) Scaring someone to think like their going to drown really sucks also. Is this torture to you? For example: You and 4 other people are in a room with a desk and a chair. The room has no windows and only one light blub, and one way out. however, there's a person on the otherside of the door with a gun, waiting to shoot whoever wants to leave. In order for anyone to leave, you must answer a question with an ambiguous answer. The person with the gun on the other side wont say it's right or wrong, except if you open the door and walk out, risking being shot at. If you were to sit down naked in for a day in a slightly below cool temperature with a bag-like thing over your head, where you couldn't see any light for a day straight. Is this torture to you? All in all, it's whatever one believes torture is, weather physical or psychological.
Whether or not O'Reilly represents the party I don't see how he isn't a conservative. He supports a stricter judicial system, stricter border control and immigration laws, he's critical of sex and violence in films and music... he might not be uber-right wing but I'd say that the above and certain other things are enough to constitute him as a conservative as much as anything. Re: the guy who called Rush Limbaugh. Maybe calling him a nazi was a bit much, but he at least tried to back up that assertion before being, as far as I can tell, cut off. Even if Rush was flustered you'd think he'd come out with at least something that supports his views if he is so sure that they're correct. Practically all he does there is go on about how apparently he doesn't advocate torture (which, correct me if I'm wrong, is not actually the case) and accuse the caller of not being a true republican and all that stuff. To me that's a sign of someone either not being able to back themselves up, and that seems to happen with him quite often. I actually agree with one or two of his stated opinions, like the feminazi thing, but more often than not he seems to come off as an ass as far as I'm concerned. And yes, torture can be psychological as well as physical. The whole concept of torture is to put someone under extreme discomfort, whether physical or mental, to withdraw information from them. Even forms of torture that are purely psychological can do lasting damage, and as Todd pointed out it's not necessarily going to help you, so why go to the trouble? I only support torture as a last resort, when all other forms of interrogation don't work and when it's absolutely necessary to find something out. Rob, you can't compare
Dean, I agree, I've talked to you about O'Reilly before and I don't want to make a post of over a thousand words to say this, so I'll try to keep it short: O'Reilly is a psychopath, it's disgusting that he's still allowed to have a show. He's a liar, he's a manipulator, he's everything that is wrong with politics, television and mankind. It's just digusting how he uses science or psychology completely out of context to manipulate the viewers way of thinking. Saying leftist have warped views on reality... He cuts people's mics, "wins" debates by screaming at his guests and calls security on them. I don't even care at this point, anyone who's againt him is fine by me, even terrorists. Lock him up, he's scum.
Dean: About O'Reilly, yes, sure, he agrees with conservative views but personally as a conservative and my family being conservatives, a lot of the time we don't really agree with him, and he's just not a very good example of a true conservative. I do understand torture is both psychological and physical. However, I do firmly stand behind that psychological torture can't even COMPARE to physical torture. Imagine someone shoving bamboo under your fingernails and having it lit on fire, or having your tongue ripped out, and then compare that to putting a plastic bag over someones nose and spraying water at it, which one is worse? I know that mental things like that, or the sensation that you're drowning is effing SCARY and they do mess you up for a while, and sure, there can be some minor internal injuries, but compare that to physical torture! I just can't even understand why people put up such a big fuss for us 'torturing' terrorists while much worse things happen elsewhere. And sometimes it doesn't work, but there are times that it does work. And I think that the possibility of finding out some information that could save some American or whoevers lives is worth the price of messing someone up psychologically. Also, about Rush Limbaugh, if you've ever wondered why he's so pompous, it's because whenever he's predicted something that will happen, it's some insane figure like 9/10 times that he's right. He's really not as crazy as all of you think...you're all just left-wing, and whatever, I respect that (despite the fact that many of you on here don't respect the opposite...) but you really should try to listen to him. You might get mad and disagree on a lot of things, but you'll find that he's very often right. edit: and at Christopher. He is pretty obnoxious.
No offense, but I don't agree with torture in any way. I think taking me from my home in a country torn apart by war without my family knowing, putting me on a plane and locking me up would do, even without the torture. It would mess me up completely, if I was innocent. If I was guilty, it wouldn't help me rethink my views on the "enemy".
Okay. Limbaugh first. There are a few of his stated opinions that I don't necessarily disagree with. I don't know about everyone else but I think I've made it pretty clear that a good deal of my dislike for him is based on his persona. He always comes off as a close-minded and pig-headed, and as someone who can't back up a lot of the things he says, whether or not he's right, and who can't stand anyone who dares to disagree with him, As for O'Reilly, I've already acknowledged that he isn't a solid conservative, but to me and a lot of other people he is still a conservative first and foremost. He might not be a true representative of conservatives in America, but still, he has the profile and he seems to have the influence as well. The same goes for Limbaugh. They shout the loudest, both figuratively and literally, and that is what outsiders are more likely to see. Even though I'm not one myself I'm from a more conservative family myself, and it is possible for me to respect those views, just not coming from people like Limbaugh. Re: torture. When it comes to psychological torture, it's a matter of more than just "messing someone up for a while". It's easily possible for one traumatising event, such as undergoing either physical or psychological torture, to cause long term mental problems. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/64636.php I think you're understating the means and end of waterboarding as well. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...--i-did-it-myself-says-us-advisor-398490.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-unveils-shock-waterboarding-film-813325.html Sure, it might be better than what other countries are alleged to do but on its own that's not really an excuse to condone it in my book. Just because you have it better than whoever is at the lowest ebb, it doesn't necessarily mean that you shouldn't seek to improve upon what you have. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5671364.ece I don't agree with 100% of this article but it sums up most of my views on torture pretty well. To me it is only ever right when there are absolutely no other options, and even then it can only be classed as a necessary evil.
Man, when I launch my new political/opinions section on the upcoming re-design of Silent Hope, I think it's going to create a firestorm. There are SO many things I'm avoiding saying in response to some of the more ill advised posts in this thread, cause I'm saving it for there. That's why I'm reserving comment right now. You will see just how I feel about Bush Limbaugh and Bill "Bring Me My Loofah" O'Reilly soon enough.
Imo, The torturing of Foreign "enemy combatants" is totally wrong. It's not like we didn't set up the whole damn thing.
Dean: Basically, I think that if psychological torture or waterboarding (I will concede that it's more physical than I thought-what I've heard/read about wasn't as physical/direct) can be used to get information, without physically hurting a person, I don't see that much wrong with it, especially if they're guilty. I do realize that a lot of people are 'tortured' that are innocent...for that, I don't know what to say, but if there is strong evidence that someone is guilty of something and to get some answers they use that kinda torture...I don't see that much of a problem with it. I however strongly disagree with physical torture because I see that as much more sick. Derek: Discreet, dear. You're quite obviously referring to me, since I'm the only one that thinks differently from the crowd, here. Also, Bush Limbaugh: original.
Let's face it dear: As people, we respect one another...but politically, we lie on completely different sides of the spectrum lol. Our ideals couldn't conflict any worse.
...Yes. But I respect other people's opinions, even if I don't agree with them, and I do respect you even though I think you're silly politically
First of all, I dont care that Obama bowed to the Saudi King. Customs and traditions of other cultures should be respected and I think Obama set a nice example there. I think the uproar comes from conservative-leaning media who have had to put up with "Bush is stupid look what he did/said today" stories for 8 years. Now the tables have turned and look how dumb these types of stories have suddenly become. Now its stupid and offensive that these stories are made? Its hypocrisy in action is what it is. The Bush bowed too story....he was bowing to receive some medal or award of some kind. Hopefully people take the time to follow the link to watch how it plays out. Everyone "bows" when receiving a medal such as that so I find that a very, very weak response from the Bush haters. Funny, I havent seen us as the world's leader but more like the world's handyman. If there is trouble here, please fix it. Natural disaster over there, help clean it up. Sometimes people forget that being a leader doesnt always mean the biggest and baddest person beating their chest. Most of the time it means doing what needs to be done to fix a problem no matter what the circumstances. And it isnt always the most popular decisions that have to be made either. The fact remains, however, that over the last 100 years or so, the US has been there for any other country who needed assistance in any way. That's not arrogance, that's the role this country has taken on since the Spanish-American War.