Reduction in DSP Quality/Mixing Since 2010?

[LP_Evan]

Hey guys this is something I've been needing to get off my chest for a while now and it's regarding the DSPs (downloadable show performances). I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed but in my opinion it seems like the quality and/or mixing has changed quite a bit since the ATS Tour started in 2010. To me, everything from the instruments (especially the drums and bass) to the vocals sound so drowned out and muddy in all the DSPs recorded from 2010 onwards. After pondering possible reasons for this change my theory is that since 2010 when the DSPs became included for free with each concert ticket you bought, they cut back on the quality to save more money. While we may never really know the actual cause of this, here are 2 different full LP concerts using audio from the official DSP of the respected show. I made sure to use a standout concert from each year to make the comparison as fair as possible. Also, I recommend listening to each performance of Given Up, especially the intros because you will notice a night and day difference between the two. First, Stuttgart 2009 (Given Up starts at 1:27): Compare to Bucharest 2012 (Given Up starts at 15:50):
What do you guys think? Do you agree with me, or am I crazy?

[minuteforce]

Well, DSPs have always been rushed :*

[LP_Evan]

Ok but that doesn't explain how ALL the DSPs from 2007-2009 sound better than ALL the DSPs from 2010-onward. Btw for the show I went to (Detroit 2011) the DSP was available 8 days after the concert, longer than the estimated 5 days the site told me, if that says anything.

[m_macdonald]

Hi LP_Evan.

Here are a few thoughts of mine with regards to the topic you raise. These are obviously just my opinions, and people's opinions will differ from mine. I come at this topic from a few angles: as a massive fan of LP, a fan of the art of professionally recorded/mixed live music, a fan of Linkin Park DSPs and DVDs (whether they be mixed by Pooch, or Ethan Mates) and as an aspiring producer and mix engineer myself who spends most of his waking hours pondering the ins and outs of audio production

My thoughts:
- Each touring cycle will have different sounding DSPs. This is a result of the DSP process - during the mixing of the FIRST show of the tour, Pooch will create a template mix that will serve for all the other shows from that tour. Of course, this template can be changed, edited and adjusted as the tour progresses, but by and large, shows from the same tour will come from the same mixing template that Pooch creates at the start of the tour. So firstly: YES, you are right in saying that there will be changes from tour to tour, as Pooch most likely creates a new template for each tour.

- Changes in sound from one show DSP to the next are usually the result of: the venue sounding different, the crowd being different (and being mic'd slightly differently), and the sound of the room that Pooch is actually mixing the DSPs in (resulting in him making some mixes darker or brighter than others).

- I personally don't believe the changes have anything to do with budget, although that's an interesting theory. I'm not aware of any major changes in equipment, process, technique or mixing personal from 2007 - present. I believe the process remains virtually the same as when it started.

- The changes in the DSPs from tour to tour are most likely the personal choice of Pooch, in his quest to try and find the perfect balance between a high quality mix and a mix that is a realistic recording of the show, which makes you feel like you are there. Inevitably, this is a matter of personal taste, and people will prefer some tour DSPs to others. For example, I DO AGREE with you in that I prefer many of the earlier 2007 - 2009 DSPs to the ATS 2010 - 2011 tour DSPs. I do agree that at times, Pooch has made some of them sound slightly muddy in his quest to get some real life "live vibe" into them.

- However, I think the new 2012 DSPs are of a better standard and sound really cool (in my opinion). They have struck the balance between a high quality sounding product and a genuine live feel (again, in my opinion). That's not to say that I wouldn't mix some aspects differently, but I think they sound cool. I also think that, between the two examples you show above, both are equally good BUT DIFFERENT. Again, my opinion.

- If you want a totally different live Linkin Park experience, then listen to some of Ethan Mates mixes. These can be found on various DVDs, broadcasts and bonus live tracks, namely:
"A Thousand Suns + (Bonus DVD: Live From Madrid)"
"Fuse Presents: Linkin Park Live From Madison Square Gardens" (my favourite LP live mix)
"MTV World Stage: Linkin Park Live From Red Square, Moscow"
"Linkin Park Live at iTunes Festival, London" (my all time favourite LP show - I was there!)

These mixes have a totally different vibe from Pooch's - in my opinion they are not as realistic in their "live" feel as Pooch's are, and they don't really make you feel like you are there. However, they are excellent, beautiful sounding productions, and well worth a listen.

In conclusion to this MASSIVE post, I agree that there are changes, but I think it's just personal preference. Some tours will end up sounding better than others.

[LP_Evan]

Hmm, that's very interesting information and I'm glad a person with an incredible background like yours was able to provide some insight on this topic. You have some great points. Another theory I had, which I forgot to mention, was that I think Pooch maybe alters the mixing process in accordance with the album cycle, placing priority on LP's current material and making sure that first and foremost their newest songs sound the best. For example, in the ATS Tour DSPs songs like The Catalyst and Iridescent sound very close to their album versions mixing-wise imo, while songs like Bleed it Out, Given Up, and One Step Closer sound a bit sloppier. I also preferred how the older DSPs amplified Chester's voice a bit more, but that's just me. However, I actually love what Pooch has done with Chester's screams in the DSPs from ATS-onward, but as I just mentioned, I do wish they were a bit louder in comparison to the other instruments.

On another note, thanks a bunch for pointing out that the special broadcasts and bonus tracks are mixed by Ethan Mates! I never knew who mixed those; all I knew was that they sounded different than Pooch's current material. And since you said you loved the mixing from Madison Square Garden 2011 a LP fan on YouTube pointed out that the mixing on the Telekom Street Gig show from June 5th sounds very similar to the NYC mix. I'm assuming you've watched that show but if you haven't, I recommend you check it out

[Astat]

There are always other variables to consider too, such as the band using different equipment, both on a tour-to-tour basis (Mike switching from his Korg Triton to an Open Labs NeKo XXL keyboard between the Minutes to Midnight and A Thousand Suns touring cycles, for example), and on a show-to-show basis (the band has an "A rig," a "B rig," and a "C rig" that they rotate between while they tour, which makes it a lot less of a logistical nightmare when they tour all over the place - the "A rig" doesn't have to be completely dismantled, packed up, and hauled/flown to the next venue overnight, instead it's only used every other show or every third show). Brad may have 3 copies of his red soldier PRS guitar to rotate between, but they aren't going to sound EXACTLY the same.

The DSP mixing process has remained pretty much unchanged ever since they started doing it, but Pooch and Dylan are always experimenting with different Pro Tools plugins and stuff like that in an effort to keep improving the final product. One thing I've noticed over the years is that they seem to make more of an effort to provide an accurate "live experience" with the mixes, i.e. making the crowd noise and the reverb of the venue itself a more natural part of the mix. If you go back to some of those early 2007 DSPs, the mixes were VERY dry at times, and it was usually extremely obvious when Pooch boosted the crowd levels for "big reactions," as you'd hear the echo of the music being picked up in the crowd mics when the crowd was loud, but it would immediately go away when the crowd died down. It seems like the overall ambiance is more consistent these days and the crowd noise is more natural-sounding, but that comes at a price too, since the mix from the PA being blended with the crowd mics can cause noise cancellation problems (which certainly contributes to things sounding "dull" at times, or songs lacking the overall "punch" they should have). This is really a catch-22 that you always end up having to deal with when you're mixing a live recording - the music sounds better the less you bring the crowd into play (which is a trait you can hear on a lot of Ethan Mates' live mixes, or for an even better example, the Live in Texas DVD), but you lose a lot of the "live" feel without the crowd being audible throughout the show. That's why a lot of big live albums like KISS Alive! had substantial overdub work done in the studio after they were recorded - the best way to get a "best of both worlds" mix is to record the crowd noise from another source and overdub it later on!

[LP_Evan]

Ok you guys seem to be much more knowledgeable in regards to music recording and mixing but I got the general gist of it and I do see your points, i.e. I agree that the 2007 recordings sound pretty dry, but they also made Chester's voice sound really "raw" and raspy which I really liked (but idk maybe he just sounded like that at the time), but the rest of the band sounded off. But then Pooch seemed to step his game up and the mixes kept improving until they "peaked" in 2009. In my opinion, that year's DSPs captured the "best of both worlds", a perfect blend of the crowd and the band. However I guess Pooch and Dylan didn't feel that way and continued to try to improve on the mixing in order to capture more of the "live experience". I guess I understand that Pooch is trying to make the DSPs capture more of the actual concert experience, but I disagree with that idea because if I want to be reminded what the concert actually sounded like, I simply search YouTube for a fan-shot video. But this new mixing approach kind of defeats the purpose. Whenever I listen to my Detroit 2011 DSP on my phone with my Skullcandy in-ear headphones (which I used to do on a regular basis), I feel the constant need to turn the volume out because the bass guitar seems to drown the band out on many songs. I'm not asking for a completely studio-sounding recording, heck they tried that in Live in Texas and that was waaaaaaaay overdone, the only over-produced live album I know of. Btw KISS Alive was a great example you provided that demonstrates you can have the best of both worlds.

[Seanlp608]

Damn, LP seriously has some of the most genius fans ever. Respect to everyone on this thread

[Geki]

I am not really a fan of the DSP's, especially the ones from 2010-2012. I did like the 2007 shows a lot, but they changed the sound after that year which sucked. I'm not sure what changed, but it's very noticeable. I guess because MTM was a pure rock album that the instruments used on tour sounded different than the ATS and LT tours..

[m_macdonald]

Hmm, that's very interesting information and I'm glad a person with an incredible background like yours was able to provide some insight on this topic. You have some great points. Another theory I had, which I forgot to mention, was that I think Pooch maybe alters the mixing process in accordance with the album cycle, placing priority on LP's current material and making sure that first and foremost their newest songs sound the best. For example, in the ATS Tour DSPs songs like The Catalyst and Iridescent sound very close to their album versions mixing-wise imo, while songs like Bleed it Out, Given Up, and One Step Closer sound a bit sloppier. I also preferred how the older DSPs amplified Chester's voice a bit more, but that's just me. However, I actually love what Pooch has done with Chester's screams in the DSPs from ATS-onward, but as I just mentioned, I do wish they were a bit louder in comparison to the other instruments.

On another note, thanks a bunch for pointing out that the special broadcasts and bonus tracks are mixed by Ethan Mates! I never knew who mixed those; all I knew was that they sounded different than Pooch's current material. And since you said you loved the mixing from Madison Square Garden 2011 a LP fan on YouTube pointed out that the mixing on the Telekom Street Gig show from June 5th sounds very similar to the NYC mix. I'm assuming you've watched that show but if you haven't, I recommend you check it out

No worries man, glad you found what I said useful! What you say about Pooch giving priority to newer songs on each touring cycle could well be true - afterall, I know that songs like The Catalyst and When They Come For Me presented a whole host of new challenges for Pooch to pull off live, so it's definitely possible that the new songs got more attention than the old "favourites"!

Glad you like the Ethan Mates stuff, he's an incredible engineer and mixer. He also did the live mixes on LPU 6 (they're also great, particularly 'Pushing Me Away (Piano)' and 'Reading My Eyes').

Ah yeh, the Telekom Street Gig, I keep meaning to check that out, the clips I've seen look incredible! I would imagine (although I'm not 100% sure) that Ethan would also have mixed that too. He may have mixed the livestream from the Nokia gig, but I'm not sure.

I'll tell you what I really love about Ethan's mix of the NYC Madison Square Gardens show - they open with Faint, and I often feel in the DSPs that the power of Mike's rhythm guitar isn't very loud. Normally, Brad's lead guitar is very loud, and it sometimes feels like the bottom has fallen out of the mix! But with Ethan's mix, Mike's rhythm guitar in Faint is a bit louder, and you can really feel the power of that track when the whole band kicks in. I also really like the drums in the verses of 'Lying From You' - the kick is loud, punchy and has some hip hop swagger to it On the other hand, you don't hear a lot of the crowd in Ethan's mix like you do with Pooch's.

[Geki]

I definitely prefer the Ethan Mates mixes over Pooch and Dylan's mixes. By far. Pooch is good, but not as good as Ethan. I love all the officially released live songs, non DSP.

[LP_Evan]

No worries man, glad you found what I said useful! What you say about Pooch giving priority to newer songs on each touring cycle could well be true - afterall, I know that songs like The Catalyst and When They Come For Me presented a whole host of new challenges for Pooch to pull off live, so it's definitely possible that the new songs got more attention than the old "favourites"!

Glad you like the Ethan Mates stuff, he's an incredible engineer and mixer. He also did the live mixes on LPU 6 (they're also great, particularly 'Pushing Me Away (Piano)' and 'Reading My Eyes').

Ah yeh, the Telekom Street Gig, I keep meaning to check that out, the clips I've seen look incredible! I would imagine (although I'm not 100% sure) that Ethan would also have mixed that too. He may have mixed the livestream from the Nokia gig, but I'm not sure.

I'll tell you what I really love about Ethan's mix of the NYC Madison Square Gardens show - they open with Faint, and I often feel in the DSPs that the power of Mike's rhythm guitar isn't very loud. Normally, Brad's lead guitar is very loud, and it sometimes feels like the bottom has fallen out of the mix! But with Ethan's mix, Mike's rhythm guitar in Faint is a bit louder, and you can really feel the power of that track when the whole band kicks in. I also really like the drums in the verses of 'Lying From You' - the kick is loud, punchy and has some hip hop swagger to it On the other hand, you don't hear a lot of the crowd in Ethan's mix like you do with Pooch's.

Yeah I agree about the guitar in Faint, the intro especially is hard for me to enjoyably listen to on the current DSPs. I also LOVE when I can hear the drum samples during the chorus of Lying From You, really helps build up the energy before the chorus! Finally about the crowd sound, but honestly the only times I want to hear the crowd are between songs and when Mike or Chester tells the crowd to sing or gives them the mic, however, I want the crowd to be LOUD when I hear them - something Pooch does seem to do a little better than Ethan Mates.