WikiLeaks

Discussion in 'Serious Chat' started by Derek, Dec 7, 2010.

  1. #21
    Avo

    Avo Don't Stop Running

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    This. The American government's fucked up, and always has been, so they get what they deserve.
     
  2. #22
    El Muerto

    El Muerto LPA Super Member LPA Super Member

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    Not always, I'd say after WW2 everything's gone downhill, because they realized how great a generator of income war can be. I studied American history a lot and I'm pretty sure the Founding Fathers would be ashamed of American leaders in the last 50 years. Franklin, Washington, Jefferson, they were all honest people with a vision of a new independent country that will stay clear of future conflicts and wars, and look what's going on just 200 years after them..
     
  3. #23
    Louis

    Louis Message me if you need to talk. We love you all. LPA Team

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    I can't see the U.S. Government doing something as stupid as you think it will, like attacking another country for the sake of distracting them from WikiLeaks. My government may not be the best, nor is it the most efficient and brilliant, but it's not completely and entirely stupid.
     
  4. #24
    El Muerto

    El Muerto LPA Super Member LPA Super Member

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    It was an intentional hyperbole, but believe it or not that's how all governments work. When something unpleasant gets too much public attention, they do whatever they can to redirect it somewhere else.
     
  5. #25
    Louis

    Louis Message me if you need to talk. We love you all. LPA Team

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    I have a hard time believing that. That's a very big generalization you're making.
     
  6. #26
    sotrix

    sotrix @lplive

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    "WikiLeaks is an independent global group of people with a long standing dedication to the idea of a free press and the improved transparency in society that comes from this. The group includes accredited journalists, software programmers, network engineers, mathematicians and others."

    http://wikileaks.ch.nyud.net/about.html
     
  7. #27
    Gloomy Mushroom

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    i.e. the Vietnam War. It came under so much scrutiny and protest, that the US Government tried distracting the public from the events in Saigon etc because their scare tactics weren't working for shit. That's why it was named a Media War. But I do agree with everything that you have just said.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2010
  8. #28
    $pvcxGhxztCasey

    $pvcxGhxztCasey meanwhile... LPA Addicted VIP

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    Grow up. I hardly think Assange is simply trying to "stick it to the man" by releasing these documents. We vote these monsters into office, we have a right to know what our government is really doing.

    You can be a patriot without totally getting on all fours and begging for it from your country, you know. Which is what you're basically doing. I'll probably get in trouble for saying that, because anything that isn't worded exactly right on this website gets criticism, but I don't give a fuck. Your way of thinking is so one way and linear that it's quite disgusting. No need for WikiLeaks? Explain me to me why you think the government should just get away unscathed doing things like this. This isn't American at all, what Obama's administration is doing to this man and this website. It's quite unfair, actually. And it has EVERYTHING to do with freedom of speech and a free press.

    This is fucking horseshit and you know it, deep down. If we get attacked because of anything that has been released by WikiLeaks, we deserve it. Don't you see that? We aren't infallible, we have to pay for what we've done. We payed the price on 9/11, but we continued to ignore it when EVERYONE could have been better off if the United States would have just recognized where these people are coming from and just wanted to be heard.

    This conversation makes me sick to my stomach, I can't believe people would think what this guy doing is anything less than being a patriot. I won't be back into this thread, that's for sure.

    EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot. Guess what? WikiLeaks doesn't release anything that may, "compromise intelligence-gathering programs aimed at hostile countries, or disclose information about the capabilities of American weapons that could be helpful to an enemy". That's sure sticking it to the man, huh?

    I guess George W. Bush was "sticking it to the man" (himself?) when he intentionally leaked the identity of an undercover CIA agent, right? Where was the outrage when the fucking President lied to the country and started a war that got more people killed than WikiLeaks ever could?
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2010
  9. #29
    Theazninvasion68

    Theazninvasion68 It's like blood to a vampire, our tragic desire. LPA Super VIP

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    I don't see how this guy can be called a hero.

    For Stealing classified documents.
    For Releasing these documents publicly.
    With the Knowledge that this is possibly (and is most likely) demeaning a Nation.

    You know who does similar things? Facebook. We put data in, in knowledge that it is safe from other companies, and it is not to be released pubically. When we found out that Facebook was giving away personal information, you know what happened? People raged and protested against Facebook for giving away our personal information, fully knowing that another company could possibly abuse (or use/sell/etc..) to another party, and for the gain of money. Hm. While it isn't 100% mirror match, the idea is the still the same. Why is it that we praise Wikileaks, but bash Facebook for almost essentially the same actions?

    Does Wikileaks (For these cables specifically) threaten lives of people? No. But if it causes increased tension between friendly nations, and the US suffers economically or socially, that is harm. No, not harm physically, but harm economically, or socially. It's the fact that information doesn't directly kill people, its the effects and perceptions of then-on-out that will strike down a person, or raise someone.

    Now, I'm not saying the information isn't good. It probably is a treasure trove or a gold-mine of information. But Assange, imo, is not a hero, nor a patriot.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2010
  10. #30
    El Muerto

    El Muerto LPA Super Member LPA Super Member

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  11. #31
    Niklas

    Niklas BadaBinge LPA VIP

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    I think that WikiLeaks is THE most important tool in Journalism and Free Speech to date. I dont consider Assange a Hero, but a very brave man. Bringing up Secrets from Governments all around the World is a kick in the teeth of EVERY Politician on this Planet. They are not safe anymore. The Public will not be longer fooled around with and played with, if WikiLeaks continues to be what they are: the most needed Website on the Internet.

    Sure, the Point of Breaking the Law has to be considered. But they wouldnt have to do this, if the Governments were open and true to the people that voted them, gave them their trust with a Vote in the Polling Booth.

    And most of the Documents released last and this week are not really that dangerous. Westerwelle is arrogant? Tell me something the Public hasnt already known for sure here in Germany. Putin maybe had something to do with the Lutwinenjenko Assasination? Yeah, hes as corrupt as Berlusconi, but EVERYBODY knows these things. WikiLeaks has the Guts to stand up for Freedom of Mind and the responsible Citizen. Not like other Forms of Media which are Controlled by the Gov.
     
  12. #32
    Gloomy Mushroom

    Gloomy Mushroom Absolute Zero LPA Super VIP

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    I'm a very Freedom of Information Act and anti-censorship person myself. But alas, Casey has stolen the words from my mouth. If the US really wants to make friends, they shouldn't have talked behind their backs, in which by the looks of things that's what the US has done. I absolutely do not have anything against the American people, but I clearly am starting to have a grudge against yet another transparent government. There's a big line between treason and having the right for the public to know the truth about the government that runs their country. Relating to something El Meurto said earlier about Clinton invading his country, of course, who's related to him and is in power? Oh his wife. Hillary and Bill think the same when it comes to things undermining the American security so they can continue to tell the American public to dream on about living in a white picket dream.

    People have the right to know what happens behind closed doors, especially if they are the people mentioned in secret documents. I'll tell you that I'll be pissed if someone was writing reports on me and not telling me.
     
  13. #33
    El Muerto

    El Muerto LPA Super Member LPA Super Member

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  14. #34
    lpboarder

    lpboarder Well-Known Member

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    This.

    And with the hacking of MasterCard as a response to their funding being cutoff, it shows that Assange's and his toads' "activism" are not for the good that they supposedly touting in my opinion. Just a bunch of fringe lefties who are not getting their way so "they are going to fight the man" and exact some revenge.
     
  15. #35
    El Muerto

    El Muerto LPA Super Member LPA Super Member

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    And what's the right way of doing it? Waiting forever for the government to publish it themselves?

    And Assange himself has nothing to do with the hacking, it's being done by a group of hackers from 4chan who are pissed of because of the made-up rape charges.


    And I really don't get it, you are mad at Assange and the hackers instead of being mad at the obvious framing they're doing to him. It really pisses me of when I see something like that..
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2010
  16. #36
    lpboarder

    lpboarder Well-Known Member

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    If just one person is harmed as a result of these leaks, then Assange is no better than the people he is trying to expose.

    If I am understanding you correctly, stealing the information is the method you are okay with using? How is WikiLeaks & Assange any better than the governments, people and information they are exposing by releasing the information in this manner? Two wrongs don't make a right.

    Framing? You expected the US government to take such an obvious act of information theft, deception, and (in the Army Pvt's case) betrayal so lightly? Maybe he thinks he is some 21st century Robin Hood or something but that is not the case. And when your plan is exposing sensitive information for the world to see, you better have your own life scrubbed clean. Assange is no Ghandi that is for damn sure so people should stop thinking he is out for some higher purpose. He stole, whether with or without his direct knowledge and/or direction, and he is at the very least guilty of that. He is a fringe leftist using the auspices of doing good deeds in front of the world.

    He should count his blessings. Had he chose to start revealing information on Russia, Putin surely would have had his skull split open and have his horse crap on his remains.
     
  17. #37
    Luke

    Luke Mind Your Manners. LPA Addicted VIP

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    How else would we go about accomplishing a transparent government when the people in power do their best to cover up as much shit as possible? I'm shocked at how many people are opposing the publication of these cables because they feel it will harm international relations? If you're talking shit about members of a foreign government then call me crazy, but that's not much of a relationship if there's a strong mistrust among diplomats from ally countries.

    I'm shocked at how willingly people will just make themselves sheep for their government. Sorry, but it's ridiculous. Your government, my government, law enforcers and army officers all around the world have been proven corrupt time and time again however this time with concrete evidence and your immediate reaction is to start calling Assange a criminal because he dared to reveal the truth? I don't think Assange is a hero, but he's helped create an organisation dedicated to revealing the truth and for that he should be commended, not penalised. It's not about fighting the establishment or 'sticking it to the man'...The search for the truth is an ongoing battle because these fuckers in power are constantly spoonfeeding us bullshit and too many people eat it up. These same bastards are the first ones tp condemn lies and deciet.

    Let's not forget, it's not just international relations that this has exposed. From a British view-point as well as an ethnic view-point, the cables that revealed that there are BNP members among our police force. Even if only a few, that is terrible and quite frankly unacceptable. The fact that known members of an extreme far-right racist party such as the BNP are actually employed as law enforcement officers makes me sick...But how else would we know that this is the case without wikileaks?

    As I said before, I'm not in favour of anarchy and I don't agree with this whole notion of 'sticking it to the man' but I'd rather hear and ultimately accept an unpleasent truth than be told a sugar-coated lie. I couldn't agree with Dusan enough on this one. Also, fringe lefties? Don't make me laugh.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2010
  18. #38
    Gloomy Mushroom

    Gloomy Mushroom Absolute Zero LPA Super VIP

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    So by this argument,you would rather be told a sugar coated lie instead of knowing the truth? And for the first statement I refer back to Casey's example:

    I guess George W. Bush was "sticking it to the man" (himself?) when he intentionally leaked the identity of an undercover CIA agent, right?

    Bush endangered a lot more lives by breaking UN Law, invading El Meurto's country and killing not only his own army men but INNOCENT civilians. And got away with it. When a civilian like Assange commits "treason" it's a big deal and there are calls for his arrest. Where was Bush's arrest warrant?
     
  19. #39
    Harlz

    Harlz More Scared Of You Than You Are Of Me LPA Super Member

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    Wow. Wikileaks doesn't cause tension. The FACTS presented by wikileaks are what cause the tensions. The incredibly fucked up and inhamane things our governments do is what causes what you call "tension".

    And in the same vein, stating what a country/government does isn't demeaning them. They demean themselves by their own actions.
     
  20. #40
    El Muerto

    El Muerto LPA Super Member LPA Super Member

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    Assange didn't steal anything, he just published the information one of your own soldiers stole. He's a journalist, that's his job. Did they tell you what they did with that soldier or did they just cover it up like they always do? And please, rape charges only a couple of days after he's published a quarter million of confidential files? You don't have to be Einstein to figure that one out.

    Nice, this is a standard emergency procedure. When in trouble, present the Russians as bad guys. Always works, right?

    And I'm sure you meant Batman, because I hear that's how the US officials call him nowadays. So classy.

    This sums it up. I don't know why some people won't accept it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2010

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