"Iraqi War Tribute" Video discussion

[travz21]

STAFF NOTE: DISCUSSION SPLIT OFF FROM THIS THREAD: http://www.lpassociation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35147

I was hoping it was going to be a tribute to the 1,000,000+ people that were killed in this war. Unfortunately it's to honor our troops that have done nothing to protect our freedom. All they've done is followed the orders of our corrupt government to further progress their evil intentions. I mourn the soldiers that have been killed, but I do not support them. I can't support the ones that enable our government to impose their power on the rest of the world. Until our troops are used solely for self-defense, I won't support them. That is the only time they are protecting our freedoms and not doing the bidding of our government.

[Simba]

I was hoping it was going to be a tribute to the 1,000,000+ people that were killed in this war. Unfortunately it's to honor our troops that have done nothing to protect our freedom. All they've done is followed the orders of our corrupt government to further progress their evil intentions. I mourn the soldiers that have been killed, but I do not support them. I can't support the ones that enable our government to impose their power on the rest of the world. Until our troops are used solely for self-defense, I won't support them. That is the only time they are protecting our freedoms and not doing the bidding of our government.
They're fighting right now to protect our freedom. Don't you remember 9/11? Our troops are trying to prevent another one from happening, therefore, we ARE using them for self-defense.
(wow I feel smart)


Iraqi*

And good video.

Thanks.

[Vdalem]

They're fighting right now to protect our freedom. Don't you remember 9/11? Our troops are trying to prevent another one from happening, therefore, we ARE using them for self-defense.
(wow I feel smart)

I so agree with you! Travz21 do have the right to whine like that but Travz21 also needs to remember they're the reason for Travz21 is allowed to talk like that. We're in a country that lets us talk anyways we want. The soldiers protect us from becoming one of the country that won't allow us to talk like that without the chance of losing our lives cause we don't agre with them.
Good job Simba! (*wow now I'm feel smart! lol)

[El Muerto]

They're fighting right now to protect our freedom. Don't you remember 9/11? Our troops are trying to prevent another one from happening, therefore, we ARE using them for self-defense.
(wow I feel smart)


That's gotta be sarcasm, right?

[travz21]

They're fighting right now to protect our freedom. Don't you remember 9/11? Our troops are trying to prevent another one from happening, therefore, we ARE using them for self-defense.
(wow I feel smart)

Self-defense is reactive, not proactive. Our troops aren't defending the country. They are killing for our country. This is why everyone hates us. We're off in hundreds of countries occupying their land when they don't want us there.

In the Middle East, especially. We're over there killing random men, women, AND children. And then when the native people fight back, we label them terrorists when they are only fighting because we're killing their people for no reason and they don't want us there. This will implant so much hate in them towards us for many years to come, leading to blowback attacks on us in the future. Our presence there will only cause more of what we're claiming to be trying to prevent. They are definitely not fighting for our freedom. What we are doing is shameful.


Edit: A good example is if China came and setup bases in our country. After awhile, they start killing people, claiming it's in self-defense. We don't tolerate this so we start fighting back, only for them to label us terrorists. Most of the citizens in China don't really know the details of what's going on, only that we're labeled terrorists, so they fully support their government's decisions to kill Americans.

This is how the majority of American citizens are thinking. We are the bad guys, not the people we're fighting. Supporting our troops and our government is wrong.

[Derek The Infamous]

Trav, I don't care what your personal political views are, you don't disrespect our troops. I disagree with the war as much as you do, and feel our troops should come home, but I have a friend in the military right now, who will gladly educate you on what shit really goes on over there, and how tragically incorrect you are about our soldiers' motivations and what they're over there for. Our soldiers didn't like Bush much, and I'll even go as far to say they're not a big fan of Obama either. They aren't deliberately helping our "corrupt government impose power" and they're serving our country because people like you decided you'd rather sit behind a computer throwing insults about shit you know nothing about, and have never experienced because you never strapped on a helmet and a vest and went out into the shit. My friend served in Afghanistan for 3 years, and is absolutely SICK to her stomach over the bullsh-t the media, internet blogs, and foreign countries spread about the soldiers when they aren't the ones risking their lives out there everyday and witnessing it all first hand.

[El Muerto]

So, tell us, why was he serving in Afghanistan? Did anyone from Afghanistan call them to come or did they just come uninvited?

I don't have anything against ordinary soldiers. Sure, most of them are there just to make some money and try to feed their families back home, but please don't tell us they're there for some noble cause.

[Derek The Infamous]

So, tell us, why was he serving in Afghanistan? Did anyone from Afghanistan call them to come or did they just come uninvited? What a ridiculous remark. Do you honestly believe that [regardless of reason] whenever any war happens, ANYWHERE that the citizens invite the people to come into their country and start fighting? I'm sure the displaced people in Poland/Germany/[insert other European country here], wanted World War 2 on their doorsteps. And, I'm sure the people of Vietnam wanted our soldiers there during that war or that the American civilians killed during our Civil War were just THRILLED to have fighting on their doorstep.

Fact is war has been a part of our World History for hundreds if not thousands of years, and usually most of these wars could've been avoided (much like this one) and civilian casualties occur when they shouldn't (much like this one). The fact that people treat this war as different than any other war is pretty silly, considering there were far more civilians killed during World War 2 than Iraq.

Iraq has had close to 120,000 (according to iraqbodycount.org). And this is using official AND unofficial (Wikileaks) sources. How the hell you've got a million is beyond me. Iraqbodycount is not a liberal/conservative site but a neutral site dedicated to exposing the atrocities of the war. Afghanistan is less although similar.

World War 2 suffered close to 37-55 million civilian casualties, and this is including the Holocaust, the nuclear bombs in Japan, and other civilian deaths unrelated to those two events. Vietnam's civilian death toll is also in the millions.

No civilian deaths are ever excusable, but I'm sick of people shitting themselves over Iraq/Afghanistan like it's the highest level of civilian casualties ever to occur in a war. It's not even close.

[Derek The Infamous]

Furthermore: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War only ONE report shows your million figure. Everything else shows drastically less.

[El Muerto]

What a ridiculous remark. Do you honestly believe that [regardless of reason] whenever any war happens, ANYWHERE that the citizens invite the people to come into their country and start fighting? I'm sure the displaced people in Poland/Germany/[insert other European country here], wanted World War 2 on their doorsteps. And, I'm sure the people of Vietnam wanted our soldiers there during that war or that the American civilians killed during our Civil War were just THRILLED to have fighting on their doorstep.

Fact is war has been a part of our World History for hundreds if not thousands of years, and usually most of these wars could've been avoided (much like this one) and civilian casualties occur when they shouldn't (much like this one). The fact that people treat this war as different than any other war is pretty silly, considering there were far more civilians killed during World War 2 than Iraq.

Iraq has had close to 120,000 (according to iraqbodycount.org). And this is using official AND unofficial (Wikileaks) sources. How the hell you've got a million is beyond me. Iraqbodycount is not a liberal/conservative site but a neutral site dedicated to exposing the atrocities of the war. Afghanistan is less although similar.

World War 2 suffered close to 37-55 million civilian casualties, and this is including the Holocaust, the nuclear bombs in Japan, and other civilian deaths unrelated to those two events. Vietnam's civilian death toll is also in the millions.

No civilian deaths are ever excusable, but I'm sick of people shitting themselves over Iraq/Afghanistan like it's the highest level of civilian casualties ever to occur in a war. It's not even close.

Wow, just wow Derek. I wrote a lengthy response to this, but then it occurred to me that you probably don't even realize what you wrote here.

Please, read it again, and if you still think there's nothing wrong with this post.. I don't even know..

[Timothy]

I kind of agree with both sides a little bit on this one. There really hasn't been a conflict since WWII that our way of life actually hinged on (hello there, military-industrial complex!). But showing respect for the troops doesn't mean you support the conflicts in question. Like El Muerto alluded to, there are a lot of socioeconomic reasons why people join the military (no money, no direction in life, etc), so things aren't so cut and dry.

[Derek The Infamous]

Wow, just wow Derek. I wrote a lengthy response to this, but then it occurred to me that you probably don't even realize what you wrote here. Please, read it again, and if you still think there's nothing wrong with this post.. I don't even know.. When you have someone like trav21 blatantly misleading people about the civilian casualties in Iraq (grossly inflating the death counts way above what several neutral/non-politically affiliated sources say) in order to further his crusade against Obama and the government on these boards, I'm going to set the record straight. I'm fully aware my post could be construed as offensive, and I'm also well aware of how it could look out of context...which is EXACTLY why I said on the end that I do not find any civilian casualties acceptable. But the problem is, war is ugly, and those casualties are a fact of war. It's why if I had my way, war wouldn't happen at all because someone innocent always dies. But when I see ignorant people, using incorrect information and political bias to attack our military (who are simply men and women, supporting their families and who felt the need to serve our country when others did not) I take great offense to that. Obama inherited these wars. You want to chase after a target? Blame Bush for rushing to war on lousy intelligence.

And for god's sake, for anyone who's criticizing the US Army: unless you've been in the shit...don't claim you know what's going on over there. Nothing pisses me off more than people thinking they know how it is, when they've never served our country and never done anything besides sit on their ass on internet forums and talk about how messed up our military or our government is. I received monthly letters from my best friend who was in one of the worst areas of Afghanistan, while she was over there and it completely contradicts what the media and all these "Sofa Experts" claim to know about the war over there. I may have worded my last post in a way that offended people, but I'm not backing down from this. Our troops are NOT the bad people and didn't deserve trav's disrespect (and pretty inaccurate figures).

*EDIT* The sheer fact a harmless tribute to soldiers became a political debate is offensive to me. Simba wanted to honor people who inspire him, and you all took it as an excuse to get on a soapbox and rant about what's wrong with our government. Wow.

[El Muerto]

Even if it's only 1 person, you still fail to see the point.

You drew a parallel with WW2. If the wars in the Middle East were WW2, do you understand that the USA would be Nazi Germany? Think about it.

You're not the good guys in this story, so stop acting like you are.

[Todd]

Okay guys, I un-deleted the posts and moved the discussion into Serious Chat, so the original thread can be used just for discussing the video. Please keep the discussion civil.

[Derek The Infamous]

Even if it's only 1 person, you still fail to see the point.

You drew a parallel with WW2. If the wars in the Middle East were WW2, do you understand that the USA would be Nazi Germany? Think about it.

You're not the good guys in this story, so stop acting like you are.

Americans didn't make concentration camps during this war.
Americans didn't knock on every door in Iraq/Afghanistan, to find people of Muslim decent and execute them on the spot + take them to the above mentioned camps to be executed via gas chambers, or shot and kicked into mass graves containing thousands of bodies.
Americans didn't commit mass genocide of Iraqis/Muslims deliberately to effectively "cleanse the world of the Muslims" (like Adolf Hitler did with the Jews)
Americans didn't try to create an Aryan race based off of their idea of the perfect person.
Americans didn't do sick scientific experiments on Iraqi children like Nazi doctors did to Jewish Children.
Americans aren't responsible for the deaths of over 6 million people of the same religion in one area.

So yeah compared to that? We are the good guys, because we are not even CLOSE to Nazi Germany.

Read up on your history before you flat out disrespect the victims of the holocaust by comparing Americans to Nazi Germany. If Todd didn't give you an infraction for telling him to go fuck himself earlier, I would've given you one for being so brutally insensitive. You're WAY off base.

However; I'm stepping out of this thread respectfully. I spoke my mind and now I'm done. I have nothing more to say.

[Simba]

...and all I did was make a video.

[El Muerto]

No need to read up, unfortunately, I know more about WW2 than I'd like to know.

You drew the parallel, I just told you what side you'd be since you're already comparing the two things. You're the aggressors, the invaders, and just because you're not as bad, you're still not the good guys.

I explained my thoughts about this issue to Todd in a PM, but I don't feel like repeating it again.

[Derek The Infamous]

...and all I did was make a video.
Don't feel guilty, you didn't start this and you shouldn't be ashamed. Your video was good, and you were innocent. Don't let this impact your opinion of the site. There's just some very politically passionate people on here.

[travz21]

I know more than most of the soldiers. Most of them think they are doing a noble cause and protecting our freedoms. They think the government has our best interests in mind and they follow orders no matter what. They think by joining the military, they are protecting our country. The truth is that none of that is the case. Just because they blindly believe those to be true doesn't mean I need to support them. Their good intentions don't make up for the reality of it.

By joining the military, it gives the government more power to do what they want to the rest of the world. Even in WWII there was no direct threat to the US until FDR provoked an attack by Japan so we could go to war, which he thought would stimulate our economy lol. Then, instead of going after the people who attacked us, we blow up entire cities and kill like 200,000 civilians instead. We've had military bases all around the world basically ever since then.

None of our freedoms are being fought for in these wars. And now, we're opening detention facilities in the US for 2 million+ "terrorists" to be detained in through the Defense Authorization Act. And then there's the Patriot Act and slew of other things that destroy our civil liberties because the government tells us it's necessary against the war on terror. These wars are being fought to appease special interest groups and for the government to have reasons to gain more power over the people.

Becoming a policeman/soldier just makes you the strong arm of the government. I hope they all survive and no harm comes to them, but I don't support them. Supporting them would be to support our destructive government and all the terrible things it does to the rest of the world. The world doesn't hate us because we're rich and free and the good guys. They hate us because we're over there causing death and destruction while acting like the ruler of the world. They want us out of their lives.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bgZ6vlUceRQ/TsJxOKcMTTI/AAAAAAAAMd4/Vx0tCAaqc-A/s1600/US+Military+Bases+Around+The+World.jpg

This is how every empire has fallen throughout history. The empire grows too big and it can no longer be funded. The government will destroy our currency if things aren't reduced drastically.

[Timothy]

Where does expensive butter fall on the crumbling-empire scale? My mind is flipping out trying to contextualize what's happening in Norway.

[travz21]

Norway has really high taxes and is a heavy welfare state. Their tax revenue was something like 40% of their GDP if I remember correctly. The only reason their economy has seemed good in the past is because they have oil. But a nation can't support a government that needs that much money without severe consequences in the long run. Butter is the least of their worries.

[Mark]

Moderation note, and this applies to everyone:

If you can't debate without being a condescending ass about it, then take your comments elsewhere. It's disrespectful, childish and typically means you're trying to cover up for a lack of knowledge (i.e. the Bill O'Reilly approach). Attack the facts, not the poster.

I'll be keeping a close eye on this thread, so tread carefully. Infractions will be held out if this behaviour persists, and that goes for any thread in Serious Chat.

[Blackee Dammet]

Furthermore: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War only ONE report shows your million figure. Everything else shows drastically less.

Some people consider the start of "the war" to be from the 1990's sanctions.

[Derek The Infamous]

I consider them two different wars myself.

[Simba]

I consider them two different wars myself.
Agree.

[travz21]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/391939_10150452713209454_112214274453_8213613_7613 58307_n.jpg

This is why I can't support the troops. They're going to be locking up thousands or even hundreds of thousands of innocent people just to try and maybe catch a few real terrorists. The soldiers are used by the government to take away our rights. No matter how righteous or pure the soldier's motives are, even if they are oblivious to the horrible things they are doing, do not deserve respect.

[Blackee Dammet]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/391939_10150452713209454_112214274453_8213613_7613 58307_n.jpg

This is why I can't support the troops. They're going to be locking up thousands or even hundreds of thousands of innocent people just to try and maybe catch a few real terrorists. The soldiers are used by the government to take away our rights. No matter how righteous or pure the soldier's motives are, even if they are oblivious to the horrible things they are doing, do not deserve respect.


....


fucking wow.

[Simba]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/391939_10150452713209454_112214274453_8213613_7613 58307_n.jpg

This is why I can't support the troops. They're going to be locking up thousands or even hundreds of thousands of innocent people just to try and maybe catch a few real terrorists. The soldiers are used by the government to take away our rights. No matter how righteous or pure the soldier's motives are, even if they are oblivious to the horrible things they are doing, do not deserve respect.

You have to remember that Obama wasn't the one that started the war. He inherited it from the past president (Bush), like Derek said. Obama wasn't the one who couldn't think of a better response than "Errrmh, nuke 'em" when he had been asked what he was going to do to prevent another 9/11 from happening. At least Obama could get the job done of killing Osama in his presidency, whilst Bush barely did anything.

[Derek The Infamous]

I know this is going to open my comments to Republicans openly bashing the president, but at this point I really don't care. I will NOT be voting for Obama if he signs this indefinite detention bill into law. His relaxation of the "veto threat" is going against every single thing that "Candidate Obama" stood for. I fully supported some things Obama did as president, but this is one move I will not support. An Obama presidency was supposed to be a break away from Bush-era terrorism policies (warrant-less wiretapping, Guantanamo, civil liberties violations) and yet here we are getting our freedoms possibly jeopardized, and potentially our internet censored. Our congress is absolutely stupid (both Republicans AND democrats), but that doesn't mean our president should be too. Being a constitutional law teacher, he should know both laws (SOPA and this law) are in direct violation of the constitution. If he cares about the constitution he helped teach, he wont pass this, otherwise he's just another Bush.

[Rocky]

You have to remember that Obama wasn't the one that started the war. He inherited it from the past president (Bush), like Derek said. Obama wasn't the one who couldn't think of a better response than "Errrmh, nuke 'em" when he had been asked what he was going to do to prevent another 9/11 from happening. At least Obama could get the job done of killing Osama in his presidency, whilst Bush barely did anything.

"You know, by the time you become the leader of a country, someone else makes all the decisions. ... You may find you can get away with virtual presidents, virtual prime ministers, virtual everything." -Bill Clinton



The President just can't start a war. Nor does the president have the power to say "Nuke em!" and just blow shit up. The only reason why Bush could go to war is 9/11, and still, the Bush family has ties everywhere, which is why a president with no power can get the go ahead to invade countries because of a terrorist attack. Bush's grandpa Prescott sold weapons to Hitler, tried to overthrow FDR, and played a big part in Union Banking. Bush senior was head the CIA, which admits to doing really shitty things for "research" purposes...and remember that they are an oil family? Anything that has to do with oil, war, and banking, the Bush family has something in it, and they have more power (and money) than Obama. Obama can't do anything good without losing. And that's our government and economy!





Supposedly, the last president to give a shit about America was JFK.


http://www.rense.com/general63/ccur.htm

[El Muerto]

Well said, Rocky.

[Benjamin]

I will NOT be voting for Obama

So you'll vote for (insert Republican nominee here) who would have signed bill too? I share your distaste with Obama right now but quite honestly he's going to have to do a lot more crazy shit for him to lose my vote.

[Derek The Infamous]

Here's some true humor for you: Senator McCain created this bill.

So in a weird way, McCain is still running our country. Even without winning the election.

[Benjamin]

...and the senate just passed it. Happy Bill of Rights day everyone!!!!

[Todd]

93 senators voted for the bill. They're far beyond a veto-proof majority. Obama could rip it up and wipe his ass with it on live TV and it would still pass.

[Derek The Infamous]

93 senators voted for the bill. They're far beyond a veto-proof majority. Obama could rip it up and wipe his ass with it on live TV and it would still pass.
So in essence, the very system put in place to protect us, is now going to hurt us. It doesn't matter at this point if Obama supports the bill or not, we're fucked.

[Todd]

So in essence, the very system put in place to protect us, is now going to hurt us. It doesn't matter at this point if Obama supports the bill or not, we're fucked.

Yeah, pretty much. One of the rare instances where checks and balances comes back to bite us in the ass rather than help us.

[travz21]

So you'll vote for (insert Republican nominee here) who would have signed bill too? I share your distaste with Obama right now but quite honestly he's going to have to do a lot more crazy shit for him to lose my vote.

Not sure what else he has to do. Maybe you should read about all the horrible shit he's done. It's not hard to find.

Here's a recent example of stuff he does all the time.

Jet Fuel-Gate Is Obama's New Solyndra (http://www.investorvillage.com/smbd.asp?mb=2234&mn=411658&pt=msg&mid=11250977)


SolyndraGate was no isolated case of corrupt government misspending. The U.S. Navy was just forced to buy 450,000 gallons of biofuels from an Obama-connected firm at an outrageous $16 per gallon.

The massive Obama stimulus was supposed to generate millions of jobs, but the $535 million loan guarantee it gave to solar panel maker Solyndra on the eve of its Chapter 11 bankruptcy illustrated the fundamental incompetence of Obama's neo-Keynesian economic ideology.

Now we find the Navy partnering with the Agriculture Department to purchase hundreds of thousands of gallons of alternative biofuel in place of standard JP-5 fuel for Navy aircraft — the biggest federal purchase of biofuel ever.

It's part of the White House's "we can't wait for Congress" strategy as the 2012 election year looms. But JP-5 typically costs less than $4 a gallon. If a family on a budget started filling up with $16-a-gallon gas, it might want to adopt the motto, "we can't wait to go broke."

Obama's just helping out his buddies, who in turn also pay him for his help, all at the expense of the taxpayer.