Gay Rights

[the enigma]

As a Television and Digital Media Production student (TV, News, Film, etc.), I was given an assignment to write a short, effective commentary on an issue of my choosing. Some chose to be funny, some chose to tug at your heart strings...and I chose this. It started a lively debate in class when I read it, so I thought I'd post it here for the diverse LPA forum members to discuss.


There are always issues that divide some groups while uniting others. Despite our history, both in this country and on the world stage, we can’t seem to learn from our past mistakes. I am, in this particular instance, talking about human and civil rights. And what is one of the most prevalent human rights issues of our day and generation?

Gay rights: The idea or thought that homosexuals deserve the right to marry and/or have children. So yeah, I could sit here and talk about this for hours, going back and forth from argument to rebuttal, from jab to insult, for days and days on end if I had to.

I shouldn’t have to.

I shouldn’t have to ask you how it would feel for me to say that your way of life is wrong. I shouldn’t have to point out how terrible you’d feel if I told you that you should be able to pursue the one you love or have children.

I shouldn’t have to.

The problem is, too many people have forgotten the struggles of other minorities in our society. Too many people decide they’d rather not put themselves in someone else’s shoes.

So, even though I shouldn’t have to say this, I will. I don’t care what your stance is on the matter of human rights. I don’t care who you are. I don’t care whether your religion says no or if your upbringing says yes. You have to ask yourself: Do you have the right to deprive someone else of their civil rights?

[D-rock]

Gay marriage is a RIGHT! I grew up in a conservative family. My grandfather was a pastor and of course it was pushed on me that gay marriage is wrong but who in the hell are we to take away happiness? My stance?, all for it! Im happy to see the progression in some states. Society standards need to change. Its time America owns up to "The pursuit of happiness."

[Todd]

My belief is, if you don't like gay marriage, then don't get one and shut the fuck up.

[HypnoToad]

Gay people have the right to be just as miserable as straight people.

[ThaHandyman]

Simply put, its a perversion of the marital union between a man and a woman, there's nothing 'right' about it.

[Dean]

Simply put, its a perversion of the marital union between a man and a woman, there's nothing 'right' about it.
No it isn't. If on one hand a man and a woman get married and on the other a man and a man or a woman and a woman get married, they can have sweet FA to do with each other if they want. Neither couple is perverting anything about the other there.

I'd go back to what Todd said here, but a bit politer. If you personally don't like it then fine, just don't marry a man yourself and don't become an official then perform gay marriages. Past that it stops being your problem.

[Louis]

Of course I support marriage!

Oh, we're making distinctions for gay marriage! That's bizarre. It's also fucking stupid. Gays should have the right just as anyone else does. Marriage isn't even originally a religious institution so people need to get over it.

[Theazninvasion68]

As with Handyman.. Yeah. Pretty much.

I don't support Gay Marriage. Or, as defined as the first post here, Gay Rights.

What I do support is the elimination of poor treatment of other people towards homosexuals. They're just doing their thing. Leave em' be.

[Ryo Hazuki]

I suppose Gay Rights, 100% , as well as gay marriage but I find it kind of distracting and harmful to call it "Gay Rights" instead, I'd opt for Human Rights, or Civil Rights.

I could be wrong about what it should be called but the fact remains:

If a man wants to marry a man or a woman wants to marry a woman or a woman wants to marry a man, it's a human right to marry the one that you love between two consensual adults.

[travz21]

What I do support is the elimination of poor treatment of other people towards homosexuals. They're just doing their thing. Leave em' be.

Wait. What? You support eliminating poor treatment towards gays but you're ok with saying they can't get married? Nice.


I think all forms of marriage are kind of dumb, but who should really give two shits who gets married? Somebody could marry a horse and I wouldn't think twice about it.

[+ / –]

Simply put, its a perversion of the marital union between a man and a woman, there's nothing 'right' about it.

So is it okay for a 50 year old man to marry a 16 year old girl? Or for a guy to get married for a 6th time in his life?

Then why can't a man and a man, or a woman and a woman get married?

[Theazninvasion68]

Wait. What? You support eliminating poor treatment towards gays but you're ok with saying they can't get married? Nice.



Some, if not most, of the intense and violent bullying I've ever seen in my life has been against Gays

Nonetheless, I firmly believe Marriage.. Is a Marital union between a Man and a Women. Poor treatment and Marriage are not the same thing. They're Equivocal.

If you really would like to push me to my stance, leave it at this, then.

I'm quite saddened and upset over the divorce rate of this nation, regardless of who you're married to.

[Timothy]

HtJ_sDRRVVI

[travz21]

Poor treatment and not letting people that love each other get married are the same thing. You think it's good treatment? Is it fair? No.

[Theazninvasion68]

Poor treatment and not letting people that love each other get married are the same thing. You think it's good treatment? Is it fair? No.

No, Poor treatment is bullying, harassment, sexism, and the likes.

I'm not saying they're aren't allowed to love one another. If they'd like a Civil Union, I'm not against that.

So Poor treatment and Marriage are not the same thing.

The reason this is a problem in the U.S is those who Officiate Marriages are often Religious. Be it a Priest, Rabbi, Pastor, etc...

Since they won't and are against Gay Marriage, being forced to do so is against their core beliefs. It's probably not what they thought they'd have to do when they became one.

Civil Unions bypass this for those who don't wish to be Officiated by those I listed. They're for everyone regardless.

... And you know how things go when people are forced to do something in this nation. :lol:

[Harlz]

Let's just keep in mind that marriages are NOT originally a religious convention, nor are they purely by or for religious people.

We're talking about the law related to marriage here, the LAW, the one modern society has to make things fair and shit for everyone.

Of course there's nothing wrong with gay marriage. You think you'd notice any difference in your life if it was legal? Why do you oppose it, other than because of what religious institutions say?

[Timothy]

Let's just keep in mind that marriages are NOT originally a religious convention, nor are they purely by or for religious people.

We're talking about the law related to marriage here, the LAW, the one modern society has to make things fair and shit for everyone.

Of course there's nothing wrong with gay marriage. You think you'd notice any difference in your life if it was legal? Why do you oppose it, other than because of what religious institutions say?

Exactly. Whether or not religious institutions agree with it is moot. Marriage is a federally-recognized legal contract between two consenting adults. Sexual orientation should have nothing to do with it. Gay people are citizens just like straight people, therefore they should have the same rights. Plain and simple.

Fuck double standards.

[Todd]

No, Poor treatment is bullying, harassment, sexism, and the likes.

I'm not saying they're aren't allowed to love one another. If they'd like a Civil Union, I'm not against that.

So Poor treatment and Marriage are not the same thing.

The reason this is a problem in the U.S is those who Officiate Marriages are often Religious. Be it a Priest, Rabbi, Pastor, etc...

Since they won't and are against Gay Marriage, being forced to do so is against their core beliefs. It's probably not what they thought they'd have to do when they became one.

Civil Unions bypass this for those who don't wish to be Officiated by those I listed. They're for everyone regardless.

... And you know how things go when people are forced to do something in this nation. :lol:

Let's get something straight here - no religious institution will be forced to officiate gay marriages. In fact, a religious exemption in the legislation just passed in NY was key to getting the necessary Republican votes for it to pass. Priests and pastors will not be forced to marry gay couples against their will (and why would you want to get married by someone who is against your marriage anyways?). You can still go down to the county court house and get married by a judge, or have one officiate at your wedding.

My sister's rabbi didn't want to officiate at her wedding because her fiance was Christian. So she found another rabbi who was more than willing to do it. No one was forced into doing something they didn't want to do, and that will be the case with gay marriage too.

[+ / –]

Some, if not most, of the intense and violent bullying I've ever seen in my life has been against Gays

Nonetheless, I firmly believe Marriage.. Is a Marital union between a Man and a Women. Poor treatment and Marriage are not the same thing. They're Equivocal.

If you really would like to push me to my stance, leave it at this, then.

I'm quite saddened and upset over the divorce rate of this nation, regardless of who you're married to.

Marriage was an established norm before religion. Just saying.

[Vriska]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fxsZ8g5Kfwk/TfYNt7cnrDI/AAAAAAAAA0E/NtIOv7IjEng/s640/How+the+Bible+Defines+Marriage.jpg

Personally, I find Christians to be the most disgusting, hypocritical creatures that ever walked this entire planet. Christians should not be allowed to marry. Actually, all Christians should be deported.

Oh, you mean that my opinion of disgust shouldn't weigh on the rights of other people? My disgust is my problem to deal with and I should learn to grow up? Ok then.

Here's another tidbit of morality: The Golden Rule, which not only one of the rules Jesus taught but appears in most religions before and after him. Treat others how you would want to be treated. When you treat gay people like dirt, I will think of you as less than dirt, and I will certainty not be sympathetic to your pathetic idea of marriage.

[travz21]

We all know only Christians can infringe on the rights of others when it goes against what they believe. Our country is now somehow built on Christianity when it was never intended that way. And now that it's infected our government, we've had to work to get our rights back that we should never have lost in the first place. Why is it up to them to decide what's right and wrong? If everyone was treated equally, would that be so horrible? Not letting gays marry just shows how flawed we still are as a society and as a government.

[Theazninvasion68]

Let's get something straight here - no religious institution will be forced to officiate gay marriages. In fact, a religious exemption in the legislation just passed in NY was key to getting the necessary Republican votes for it to pass. Priests and pastors will not be forced to marry gay couples against their will (and why would you want to get married by someone who is against your marriage anyways?). You can still go down to the county court house and get married by a judge, or have one officiate at your wedding.

My sister's rabbi didn't want to officiate at her wedding because her fiance was Christian. So she found another rabbi who was more than willing to do it. No one was forced into doing something they didn't want to do, and that will be the case with gay marriage too.

Show a news article and I'll have you be able to say I got schooled.

Because in that case, I'm quite behind on the news.

[Todd]

Show a news article and I'll have you be able to say I got schooled.

Because in that case, I'm quite behind on the news.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/nyregion/religious-exemptions-were-key-to-new-york-gay-marriage-vote.html

[+ / –]

Show a news article and I'll have you be able to say I got schooled.


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/nyregion/religious-exemptions-were-key-to-new-york-gay-marriage-vote.html

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/2/2/716e2314-2d83-4e42-8d88-7dd0a79387f7.jpg

[Harlz]

Thread over. Kathy and Todd win.

[Derek The Infamous]

For those objecting to gay marriage, could you please kindly point to me where at all in the constitution that it states that marriage should be between a man and a woman? There is absolutely nothing put forth in the constitution (even through later amendments) that suggests marriage is between two people of the opposite sex. This "sanctity of marriage" argument is complete and total BS. As others have pointed out, marriage is a federally binding contract between two consenting adults to enter into marriage. It is NOT a religious convention or strictly for people of religion to do. The current ban on gay marriages is nothing more than a ideology that has been forced upon our country by Christians, who have decided that because of their hard coded religious beliefs, that they are going to violate the rights of a large percent of their constituents. It's bigoted and it's something I thought we would've gotten past as a country after the civil-rights movement of the 1960s.

By denying people basic human rights because of who they fall in love with, the doubters (and people in congress who made it illegal) are not being any less bigoted then the racist hicks in the 1960s who decided black people shouldn't have the right to marry or have the same rights as white people. This is no different. Gays are the new blacks, and it's disgusting. It's time to forget about your religious beliefs, and give gays the rights they should have. Who cares who they have sex with..marriage should be a HUMAN right!

[D-rock]

For those objecting to gay marriage, could you please kindly point to me where at all in the constitution that it states that marriage should be between a man and a woman? There is absolutely nothing put forth in the constitution (even through later amendments) that suggests marriage is between two people of the opposite sex. This "sanctity of marriage" argument is complete and total BS. As others have pointed out, marriage is a federally binding contract between two consenting adults to enter into marriage. It is NOT a religious convention or strictly for people of religion to do. The current ban on gay marriages is nothing more than a ideology that has been forced upon our country by Christians, who have decided that because of their hard coded religious beliefs, that they are going to violate the rights of a large percent of their constituents. It's bigoted and it's something I thought we would've gotten past as a country after the civil-rights movement of the 1960s.

By denying people basic human rights because of who they fall in love with, the doubters (and people in congress who made it illegal) are not being any less bigoted then the racist hicks in the 1960s who decided black people shouldn't have the right to marry or have the same rights as white people. This is no different. Gays are the new blacks, and it's disgusting. It's time to forget about your religious beliefs, and give gays the rights they should have. Who cares who they have sex with..marriage should be a HUMAN right!

FTW

[Derek The Infamous]

Sorry to call out people and call them bigots, but I've found nothing in this thread that offers a justifiable reason (crime rate, etc) as to why Gay Marriage should be illegal. The only reason I've seen is personal opinion, and in the court of law personal opinion is not enough to make a legally binding decision or set the laws in the United States. Apart from making a few people's feathers get ruffled...Gay Marriage is not a danger to humanity. As it stands, we are violating the US Constitution by denying people the right to marry based on who they love. Even if our forefathers didn't have Gays in mind when the constitution was written, times have changed and we should change with them.

[El Muerto]

I don't care if they marry or not, but I'll never be for allowing them to adopt children. I wouldn't want to have two dads so I wouldn't want that for anyone else.

[Ryo Hazuki]

Derek, said basically what I said. It's a Human right. So, Derek, Kathy, Todd, Harlz, Tim, Minus, and Trav are all spot on. :lol:


I don't care if they marry or not, but I'll never be for allowing them to adopt children. I wouldn't want to have two dads so I wouldn't want that for anyone else.

That's an extremely stupid way of thinking. What about people who dislike tattoos? Should they not want anyone to get a tattoo just because they dislike them? No.

It's absurd to even have to give an example or to compare it to anything else, much less a tattoo. But that process is definitely flawed. And wrong.

[Theazninvasion68]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/nyregion/religious-exemptions-were-key-to-new-york-gay-marriage-vote.html

Hats off to you, sir.

I'll reconsider my position now with this new information.

@ Harlz. Kathy? Aside from a picture, I havent a clue why calling out a group of people means winning.

@Minus :lol: Nice picture hahahah.

[El Muerto]

Derek, said basically what I said. It's a Human right. So, Derek, Kathy, Todd, Harlz, Tim, Minus, and Trav are all spot on. :lol:


That's an extremely stupid way of thinking. What about people who dislike tattoos? Should they not want anyone to get a tattoo just because they dislike them? No.

It's absurd to even have to give an example or to compare it to anything else, much less a tattoo. But that process is definitely flawed. And wrong.

You're calling my way of thinking stupid and then you're comparing tattoos to children..

You can make believe that you live in a perfect world, but you're not and gay people are not widely accepted now and it'll probably be a while until they are, which means that there's 99% chance that a kid who has 2 dads would have his life made a living hell from early childhood. So yeah, if they want to marry, go ahead, but if they don't have a dick and a pussy I don't know where they got the idea that they should have a child.

[+ / –]

Last I checked, a fair share of children raised in gay households are more well-adjusted than those raised in straight families.

[El Muerto]

I don't know, last time I checked the other kids didn't wanna play with them.

[Timothy]

You're calling my way of thinking stupid and then you're comparing tattoos to children..

You can make believe that you live in a perfect world, but you're not and gay people are not widely accepted now and it'll probably be a while until they are, which means that there's 99% chance that a kid who has 2 dads would have his life made a living hell from early childhood. So yeah, if they want to marry, go ahead, but if they don't have a dick and a pussy I don't know where they got the idea that they should have a child.

So what? Interracial children often have tough childhoods too. Does that mean we shouldn't mix races? Disabled children have it rough as well. What do we do about them?

If two people want to have a child -- be it through adoption or otherwise -- and they have the means to support the child, who are we to say they can't? Yes, the world is a tough place, but if we make it against the law for homosexuals to have children, we're essentially saying it's acceptable to ostracize them and treat them differently.

[Agent O]

Depends on what type of marriage you are talking about. If you are talking about gay couples getting married under religious laws, like in my religion Islam, then that's a big no no. However, if you mean a civil union under a country's constitutional law then sure... let them get married.

[Theazninvasion68]

Last I checked, a fair share of children raised in gay households are more well-adjusted than those raised in straight families.

Last I checked, the research paper that supports this was poorly conducted.

As in 2-parent household vs single mother/father, being that 2-parent is either gay/straight.

The fact of the matter is that it didn't conduct the experiment/research well. What it did do well is something quite obvious, that a child raised in a 2-parent household is always better adjusted than a single parent. Regardless whether straight or not.

I know of a friend whose raised by two moms. Nothing wrong with him actually. He's pretty cool.

But when he tried dating my best friend? Boy, did he have something about him missing. It wasn't just my best friend and I who noticed. Everyone within the circle knew.

So I can't vouch from experience. I agree with el muerto. (his first post :lol:)

[Derek The Infamous]

If two people want to have a child -- be it through adoption or otherwise -- and they have the means to support the child, who are we to say they can't? Yes, the world is a tough place, but if we make it against the law for homosexuals to have children, we're essentially saying it's acceptable to ostracize them and treat them differently.

THANK YOU. It's about granting human rights, not what someone thinks is tolerable or not. Gay people are human beings are deserve to be treated as such.

[+ / –]

Last I checked, the research paper that supports this was poorly conducted.

As in 2-parent household vs single mother/father, being that 2-parent is either gay/straight.

The fact of the matter is that it didn't conduct the experiment/research well. What it did do well is something quite obvious, that a child raised in a 2-parent household is always better adjusted than a single parent. Regardless whether straight or not.

I know of a friend whose raised by two moms. Nothing wrong with him actually. He's pretty cool.

But when he tried dating my best friend? Boy, did he have something about him missing. It wasn't just my best friend and I who noticed. Everyone within the circle knew.

So I can't vouch from experience. I agree with el muerto. (his first post :lol:)

Well, a new study may have been released. I mean, after all, you did hint that you were behind in the news and were then thoroughly schooled.

[Derek The Infamous]

Kids from same-sex marriages wouldn't have ANY trouble adapting if people in the world would get off of their soap box and realize that there's absolutely nothing wrong with two people of the same sex having a relationship, getting married and adopting a child. With adopting, these couples are ensuring that a child that was once without loving parents, can grow up in a home where they will be taken care of, loved and given just as good of an upbringing as a same-sex family would provide. Gay people don't make bad parents. It's society that needs to get it's act together and quit ostracizing people for who they decide to be in a relationship with. 50 years ago it was thought to be a sin for a white and black couple to marry, have sex or let alone conceive...and now look at how accepted it is. It became legal, and unlike what the people of the time thought, the world didn't come to an end and we're still here. Hell, our own president is the product of a mixed race relationship.

So to everyone who is so adamantly against gay marriage/adoption in this thread....tell me this: besides making you completely uncomfortable, what bad will gay marriage bring to the world? Or even more importantly, why do you give such a fuck about what two people of the same sex do in their own household? Let them marry, let them adopt children...it doesn't affect you directly or ruin YOUR life, so you shouldn't care.

[Vriska]

I don't care if they marry or not, but I'll never be for allowing them to adopt children. I wouldn't want to have two dads so I wouldn't want that for anyone else.


You're calling my way of thinking stupid and then you're comparing tattoos to children..

You can make believe that you live in a perfect world, but you're not and gay people are not widely accepted now and it'll probably be a while until they are, which means that there's 99% chance that a kid who has 2 dads would have his life made a living hell from early childhood. So yeah, if they want to marry, go ahead, but if they don't have a dick and a pussy I don't know where they got the idea that they should have a child.

OK. But what about divorced or single parent households. The kids there have issues too. Does that mean we should ban divorce? Actually, the bible says more about divorce than it does gay marriage. Yet you don't see religious idiots lashing out against divorce at all. Hmm. More hypocrisy and double think from the religious right. What about kids who are disabled? You gonna punish their parents for having faulty genes? WHY is this the business of the government, anyway? A hard life is.. part of life. Life isn't fair. That's not a reason to butt into other people's business and take away their own personal choices. What about black kids, jewish kids or atheist kids growing up in the bible belt? A kid (http://www.atheistrev.com/2011/05/lessons-from-damon-fowler-case.html) was ostracised and kicked out of his parent's home when he told his religiously bigoted school that they were violating the US constitution. So we make it illegal for any non-Christian to marry, then? Oh wait, that's probably what they actually want.

You're missing the greatest point of all: Punish the bullies, not the victims. Don't deprive orphans of a family. Instead, hold teachers accountable for letting bullying happen. Lock those brats into a dark room with scary monsters until they cry.



Also, you made the extremely idiotic assumption that everyone is the same as you. You don't want two dads, but somehow you get to speak for the ENTIRE COUNTRY and say that nobody else wants two dads either. Are you an orphan? Do you get to speak for them? Don't the orphans get THEIR OWN say into what sort of parents they want?

[Ryo Hazuki]

You're calling my way of thinking stupid and then you're comparing tattoos to children..

You can make believe that you live in a perfect world, but you're not and gay people are not widely accepted now and it'll probably be a while until they are, which means that there's 99% chance that a kid who has 2 dads would have his life made a living hell from early childhood. So yeah, if they want to marry, go ahead, but if they don't have a dick and a pussy I don't know where they got the idea that they should have a child.

I wasn't comparing tattoos to children, I was comparing one way of thinking to another just as ridiculous. If you can't understand that, I don't know what to tell you.
---

Another thing, totally absurd and has me both disappointed and sad,

recently a catholic church (among others) has decided to shut down their charity in Illinois that handles adoption, rather than having to be made to not discriminate against gays...

So, there are children, that have been abandoned.

.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2011/06/04/more-catholic-adoptions-agencies-in-illinois-are-shutting-down/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2011/06/04/more-catholic-adoptions-agencies-in-illinois-are-shutting-down/

[travz21]

I haven't thought about how I feel towards gay couples adopting a child until now. I'm kind of stuck in the middle. On one hand, this kid could have a horrible life without any love or care if they don't get adopted. On the other hand, it's just totally unnatural for a child to be raised by two people of the same sex. In the natural world, a kid is created by a man and a woman and is raised by them until that child is strong enough to live on their own, find a mate, reproduce, and repeat the cycle.

Edit: So to sum it up, if gay couples want a child, shouldn't that just be tough luck? That's one of the drawbacks of being homosexual. But then when I think about all the kids without homes it also makes me think.

[Vriska]

I haven't thought about how I feel towards gay couples adopting a child until now. I'm kind of stuck in the middle. On one hand, this kid could have a horrible life without any love or care if they don't get adopted. On the other hand, it's just totally unnatural for a child to be raised by two people of the same sex. In the natural world, a kid is created by a man and a woman and is raised by them until that child is strong enough to live on their own, find a mate, reproduce, and repeat the cycle.


You know what else is natural? Nightshade. Marijuana. Black widows. Gay sex in various species, predators, bacteria that make your flesh rot right off of your bone. Dying before age 40.

You know what is not natural? Air conditioning. Airplanes. TV. Blankets. Cribs. Refergerators. Anti-bacterial soap. Vaccines. Music. Dying after age 70.

Does the "natualness" of this have anything to do with anything? No. Claiming something isn't natural is the biggest red herring of all. What authority does "naturalness" have anyway, when natural things are that which kill us?

[travz21]

Relating technological advances that have benefited us to gay couples raising a child doesn't make much sense from an argumentative standpoint, but I get the point you're trying to make.

[Vriska]

Relating technological advances that have benefited us to gay couples raising a child doesn't make much sense from an argumentative standpoint, but I get the point you're trying to make.

I was not comparing technological advances to gay couples. My last post had nothing to do at all with gay couples.

My point is that naturalness is not a valid concept to base decisions on. It is like saying gay people shouldn't adopt because the bugblatter sheedleorph might be disemborphed. It's nonsense. It's psuedoscience. It's hogwash.

[Derek The Infamous]

Edit: So to sum it up, if gay couples want a child, shouldn't that just be tough luck? That's one of the drawbacks of being homosexual.

I apologize but read back over what you said, and then realize what you're hinting here. You're pretty much saying that if a person chooses to be homosexual they should be deprived of the choice to have a child because of their life choice and because they lack the right reproductive organs to make it happen. That's total hogwash.

There have been numerous scientific articles released over the last decade (look up "born gay") that lend credence to the theory that sexuality isn't determined by the person, but determined at birth by genetics, estrogen/testosterone levels etc. So amusing that is correct for second, are you saying that due to what they were predetermined to be at birth, that they shouldn't get rights? How is that fair?

[+ / –]

Edit: So to sum it up, if gay couples want a child, shouldn't that just be tough luck? That's one of the drawbacks of being homosexual. But then when I think about all the kids without homes it also makes me think.

If a sterile male wants to father a child, shouldn't that just be tough luck? That's one of the drawbacks of being sterile.

If a woman unable to conceive wants to have a child, shouldn't that just be tough luck? That's one of the drawbacks of not having a useful uterus.

[Theazninvasion68]

EDITED HERE : A very poorly thought out post in reflection.

Gay People, as long as there are two, don't make bad parents. Indeed, I see for myself, that my friend is quite well adapted and well-adjusted. However, Something isn't quite right with him when it comes to relationships. For other children adopted under a gay couple? Hm, I haven't surveyed enough to know for sure aside from experience. Perhaps they're normal. Perhaps, like my friend, are missing something.

@Minus: Yeah, Maybe. I did read it back around 1 and 1/2 years ago in my school Data-base. I wouldn't say there isn't anything new out there. Just the one I read I recall clearly the poor methodology :lol: I was like "THANKS! Nothing new! 2 parents are significantly better than single parents in terms of raising a child! Haha."

EDIT:

WHY DOES EVERYONE HAVE THIS PERSUMPTION THAT YOU ARE BORN GAY?

Everything currently consistently tells us that, with all factors included, including time of year, hormones, etc..

You're chances of being a homosexual, given the genetic and hormonal bill pre-birth, and given the upbringing by the parents, and ALSO the society in which the individual interacts with other people...

Chances are about 35%. You aren't born gay. You're chances of being gay is 35% higher than average / normal.

[Todd]

Adoptive gay couples (and adoptive straight couples) make better parents than a lot of straight couples who have their own kids. You know why? You don't accidentally adopt a kid. There's no such thing as an unplanned adoption. It takes a lot of dedication, time and money to adopt a child. There are thorough background checks and all sorts of safeguards to make sure the child goes to a good home. You have to want to be a parent to adopt a child. You don't accidentally adopt a child after a night of drunken debauchery.

It takes a few minutes and no money to make a child of your own. It takes months and thousands of dollars to adopt a child. No one who adopts a child doesn't really want the kid. The fact that a gay (or straight) couple goes through the adoption process tells me that they really want a child and would be great parents. If we could put half of the restrictions and checks on fucking that we do on adopting, perhaps there wouldn't be so many fucked up kids born to fucked up, uncaring parents.

[travz21]

I was not comparing technological advances to gay couples. My last post had nothing to do at all with gay couples.

My point is that naturalness is not a valid concept to base decisions on. It is like saying gay people shouldn't adopt because the bugblatter sheedleorph might be disemborphed. It's nonsense. It's psuedoscience. It's hogwash.

How is it not valid? We're not talking about the knowledge of one random natural thing being used to base a decision on another random natural thing. We're talking about the knowledge of the natural evolution of our species being used to make a decision about a specific thing regarding our own species.

The fact is that since we have been around, we've been created by a man and a woman and raised by them. It's the foundation of all humans. It's just how we're made. What happens when that stops being the case? Will the child have to adapt? Will the child be better off raised by a single mother/father or a gay couple? Would they be better off with nobody at all? These are all things we aren't sure about. Would other animals stop doing things that have worked for them in the past when there is no physical need to do so?

I know we're in a totally different day and age now where we aren't primitive creatures, but we are still wired the same way and built the same way that we were back then.


I apologize but read back over what you said, and then realize what you're hinting here. You're pretty much saying that if a person chooses to be homosexual they should be deprived of the choice to have a child because of their life choice and because they lack the right reproductive organs to make it happen. That's total hogwash.

There have been numerous scientific articles released over the last decade (look up "born gay") that lend credence to the theory that sexuality isn't determined by the person, but determined at birth by genetics, estrogen/testosterone levels etc. So amusing that is correct for second, are you saying that due to what they were predetermined to be at birth, that they shouldn't get rights? How is that fair?

I wasn't hinting anything. I know (think) that people don't choose to be gay. I'm not actually sure what point I was trying to make, because, obviously, some gay people will have the urge to have children even though they aren't attracted to the opposite sex where creating a baby would be possible. But, again, I wasn't thinking about humans in this day and age. I'm thinking in terms of basic human wiring. If people are born gay, why would they feel the need to have a child? Would that feeling be influenced by nature or nuture?


If a sterile male wants to father a child, shouldn't that just be tough luck? That's one of the drawbacks of being sterile.

If a woman unable to conceive wants to have a child, shouldn't that just be tough luck? That's one of the drawbacks of not having a useful uterus.

Well played.

[Derek The Infamous]

Okay let's lay it out like this:

http://www.igourmet.com/images/topics/cheddar1.jpg

This cheese couple is straight.

http://www.igourmet.com/images/topics/cheddar1.jpg

This cheese couple is homosexual.

Any difference? No they're both from the same race (cheese) and thus should have the same right as other cheeses. Now apply this to humans and you'll get my drift.

[Dean]

If a child learns, as I did in 7th grade, that you require a Mother and Father to spawn a child. I mean, We don't Asexually reproduce.

So, If that child realizes that his parents aren't one and one, well?

... He'd ask, and uncomfortably, the parents would have to, if they had not already, admit that he's adopted. But an answer like that brings more questions than answers. Who are his/her original parents? Why is he adopted?
Did the parents Abandon the child? I'm fairly certain if you're old enough to have sex, you're old enough to be responsible for a child. But Abandoned for what? Better care from others? Well, there's always family support. No? I suppose it would be a fine option. But what if the original parents never contacted back or ever since? But there are many more reasons than the plain fact that two people cannot support one child. Embarrasement, unwillingness, mishaps, etc.. Too many questions, and no easy way out.

Surely, the child would (And I think should) be infinitely grateful for those who adopted him... But wouldn't it be quite a sorrow to know your parents abandoned you?
That just boils down to being a problem that one way or another can just as well be encountered by ANYONE who has adopted a child or is an adopted child, regardless of whether or not the parents there are the same sex.

And I haven't presumed gay people are born gay... I remember last time there was a thread here I dug up plenty of articles supporting that, and from what I recall no one had a rebuttal so yeah. It doesn't really change much whether someone is born that way or not anyway. If it's not a conscious choice people shouldn't be discriminated against for it.

[Theazninvasion68]

That just boils down to being a problem that one way or another can just as well be encountered by ANYONE who has adopted a child or is an adopted child, regardless of whether or not the parents there are the same sex.

And I haven't presumed gay people are born gay... I remember last time there was a thread here I dug up plenty of articles supporting that, and from what I recall no one had a rebuttal so yeah. It doesn't really change much whether someone is born that way or not anyway. If it's not a conscious choice people shouldn't be discriminated against for it.

I think I missed it, which is why I didn't have a rebuttal. Or, I kinda skipped over the thread lol.

No, It's not a conscious choice, it's what a person can develop into.

edit: I edited the original post btw. It was poorly thoughtout as it wasn't too relevant to this thread.

[Derek The Infamous]

not a conscious choice, it's what a person can develop into.

So if a person develops into a homosexual, and did not specifically choose to be that way, does that not make such decisions out of their control? Would it not also explain why such things as "pray the gay away" camps never work, because the person has homosexuality hardwired into them? And lastly, if this is not their conscious choice...then why should they be barred from the basic human right of marriage or adoption? Your logic fails me after reading your last reply. You contradicted yourself.

[Ryo Hazuki]

I think some people are just being Oxymorons about this whole issue.

Gay Rights = Human Rights, because well, they're human. Dammit.

[Gloomy Mushroom]

Homosexuality develops in the womb, apparently.

I actually do think they should be able to adopt. If a straight couple can adopt, what on God's green Earth should two people of the same gender be not allowed to adopt? As for the pyschological aspect on the child, what's so different from saying "you have two mums/dads" then to the kid being bullied about one of his folks being in jail for rape or something?

[El Muerto]

I think some people are just being Oxymorons about this whole issue.

Gay Rights = Human Rights, because well, they're human. Dammit.

Oxymoron is a figure of speech, people can not be oxymorons.

And it's the gay people who always talk about gay rights and gay this and gay that so that's why the expression is used.

And I'm not gonna respond now to all the people that quoted me because I'm a bit drunk and may say all sorts of things, but I might come back to it tomorrow (especially KATHYxx. remimd me to answer your post).

[Louis]

This past semester I helped coach an under-14 girl's soccer team with a friend of mine, and one of the girls on the team had lesbian parents. Due to my curiosity, I spent a lot of time trying to observe how she interacted with others and how she behaved. To be quite honest, she was no different than the other girls, all of whom had a mom and a dad each.

What bothers me the most is that a lot of you are making assumptions, and you really cannot do that. Everyone is different, and just because having straight parents hasn't negatively affected you, it doesn't mean that it can only be that way. I was watching Oprah a month ago and they had this gay couple, one of whom wrote "Wicked" (if that rings any bells for anyone), and the children seemed perfectly normal. In fact, they seemed more open and at times a little bit more intelligent than what I've seen others be at their age. When you think about it, it's not like it doesn't make sense. These two men raised their adopted children well, taught them to understand the differences between them and other parents, and the kids didn't seem to be bothered by the fact that they had two fathers while other children had a mother and a father.

What this tells me is that it's not what the parents are, but who the parents are and how they raise children that determines what the person ends up being. Sure, I wouldn't disagree with the notion that there are some things a child might be missing out on not having a mother or not having a father (as is seen with single parents quite often), but the important thing here is that a child has guidance from people who care about him or her. That's all that matters in the end, right? If the child is raised intelligently and with care, does it really matter who raised the child?

The fact of the matter is, guys, that if we are to pride ourselves on believing in full equality, then we have no right to prevent anyone from marriage, which as mentioned is neither originally nor exclusively a religious institution. Just as a child cannot determine whether or not he or she is white, black, hispanic, etc., a child cannot determine his or her sexuality either (I am strongly convinced of this, seeing as how from what I've read studies have shown that when certain genes have been removed in animals, they behaved homosexually). Sure, the environment of a child can change their perceptions of sexuality, and perhaps open their eyes to their sexuality, but their environment does not determine what they are sexually attracted to.

When I think of how I am attracted to women, what I can't help but notice is that it simply happens. When I see a girl who might be seen objectively as attractive, I can't help but feeling attracted to her. I'm not making the conscious choice to think to myself, "I would have sex with her." My mind and body simply desire it, because that is how I was created. I was born a heterosexual human being, and I insist that it is no different for the LGBT community.

At the end of the day, what I think everyone here needs to realize is that everyone, no matter what, is a person, and that really unless someone's actions infringe upon yours, there is no reason to prohibit someone from doing that. Murder is against the law because it infringes upon one's right to live. Speeding is against the law because it endangers others and potentially threatens their right to live. Does gay marriage infringe upon anyone's right at the end of the day? No. Sure, we should provide religious exemptions for those who are simply opposed to it based on religious beliefs, for no one should be coerced to marry a couple they don't want to marry, but even then, the simple action itself does not do anything to anyone. Just because your gay neighbors got married, does it mean that you can't get married all of the sudden? Is it going to take away from your marriage in any sort of way? Is it going to ruin your life? It's not. People are simply stubborn, misguided, and blind.

And this is where I become really opinionated, but I must say it here: I think it's time for people to stop letting a book like the Bible govern their lives and their views of others, especially now that people are holding double-standards. As I believe Kathy mentioned, the Bible condemns divorce, but the Bible also condemns other things like males having long hair and the consumption of certain foods on certain days and whatnot, but people still do those things and yet no one does anything to stop them. Why are homosexuality and gay marriage the focus of Christian condemnation? What distinguishes them from anything else the Bible ever condemned?

If you're going to oppose gay marriage, then I would hope that you subscribe to every other damn thing the Bible condemns (or whatever else your religion might condemn if you are a believer of another religion that condemns homosexuality). If you're going to oppose it, tell me how it in some way affects you. Explain to me how it is ruining your life. Then maybe I'll even consider thinking about gay marriage being an issue. But it's a complete non-issue that as someone else said shouldn't be the government's responsibility. And as Louis C.K. aptly says, "Who gives a shit? It doesn't matter. It doesn't have any effect on your life, what the fuck do you care?"

[Vdalem]

I believe that if a gay couple wants a child, let them have a child! Most people fail to remember that most gays grew up with straight parents. Too many kids needs a parent, so what's the different between have a straight parent and a gay or lesbian parent? Most kids don't care if their parents are gay, lesbian, or straight. They just wants to be loved.

[Derek The Infamous]

Louis = Thread. I'd like to see how anybody can come up with a reasonable rebuttal to that.

[+ / –]

If we're going on 'the Bible said so', then I guess we shouldn't have women teach men. Because the Bible said so.

Also, nobody should play football again, because of the whole pigskin deal. Because the Bible said so.

I guess we can sell our youngest daughters into slavery. Because the Bible said so.

The point I'm making here is this: if all the people who are saying homosexuality is wrong is using the Bible as an argument, be ready to own up to all the other stupid shit the Bible says to do as well.

And if you go, "Oh, well that book was written a long time ago. It was a different time back then." Well guess what?! THE SAME ARGUMENT COULD BE MADE ON THE VERSES SPEAKING AGAINST HOMOSEXUALITY.

If you're not willing to accept the entire book at face value, you aren't allowed to choose one line as the basis of why something is wrong.

[Ryo Hazuki]

Oxymoron is a figure of speech, people can not be oxymorons.

And it's the gay people who always talk about gay rights and gay this and gay that so that's why the expression is used.

And I'm not gonna respond now to all the people that quoted me because I'm a bit drunk and may say all sorts of things, but I might come back to it tomorrow (especially KATHYxx. remimd me to answer your post).

Yar. I know what an Oxymoron is. You looked too far into it. :P

What I did there wasn't that subtle.

[Benjamin]

This past semester I helped coach an under-14 girl's soccer team with a friend of mine, and one of the girls on the team had lesbian parents. Due to my curiosity, I spent a lot of time trying to observe how she interacted with others and how she behaved. To be quite honest, she was no different than the other girls, all of whom had a mom and a dad each.

What bothers me the most is that a lot of you are making assumptions, and you really cannot do that. Everyone is different, and just because having straight parents hasn't negatively affected you, it doesn't mean that it can only be that way. I was watching Oprah a month ago and they had this gay couple, one of whom wrote "Wicked" (if that rings any bells for anyone), and the children seemed perfectly normal. In fact, they seemed more open and at times a little bit more intelligent than what I've seen others be at their age. When you think about it, it's not like it doesn't make sense. These two men raised their adopted children well, taught them to understand the differences between them and other parents, and the kids didn't seem to be bothered by the fact that they had two fathers while other children had a mother and a father.

What this tells me is that it's not what the parents are, but who the parents are and how they raise children that determines what the person ends up being. Sure, I wouldn't disagree with the notion that there are some things a child might be missing out on not having a mother or not having a father (as is seen with single parents quite often), but the important thing here is that a child has guidance from people who care about him or her. That's all that matters in the end, right? If the child is raised intelligently and with care, does it really matter who raised the child?

The fact of the matter is, guys, that if we are to pride ourselves on believing in full equality, then we have no right to prevent anyone from marriage, which as mentioned is neither originally nor exclusively a religious institution. Just as a child cannot determine whether or not he or she is white, black, hispanic, etc., a child cannot determine his or her sexuality either (I am strongly convinced of this, seeing as how from what I've read studies have shown that when certain genes have been removed in animals, they behaved homosexually). Sure, the environment of a child can change their perceptions of sexuality, and perhaps open their eyes to their sexuality, but their environment does not determine what they are sexually attracted to.

When I think of how I am attracted to women, what I can't help but notice is that it simply happens. When I see a girl who might be seen objectively as attractive, I can't help but feeling attracted to her. I'm not making the conscious choice to think to myself, "I would have sex with her." My mind and body simply desire it, because that is how I was created. I was born a heterosexual human being, and I insist that it is no different for the LGBT community.

At the end of the day, what I think everyone here needs to realize is that everyone, no matter what, is a person, and that really unless someone's actions infringe upon yours, there is no reason to prohibit someone from doing that. Murder is against the law because it infringes upon one's right to live. Speeding is against the law because it endangers others and potentially threatens their right to live. Does gay marriage infringe upon anyone's right at the end of the day? No. Sure, we should provide religious exemptions for those who are simply opposed to it based on religious beliefs, for no one should be coerced to marry a couple they don't want to marry, but even then, the simple action itself does not do anything to anyone. Just because your gay neighbors got married, does it mean that you can't get married all of the sudden? Is it going to take away from your marriage in any sort of way? Is it going to ruin your life? It's not. People are simply stubborn, misguided, and blind.

And this is where I become really opinionated, but I must say it here: I think it's time for people to stop letting a book like the Bible govern their lives and their views of others, especially now that people are holding double-standards. As I believe Kathy mentioned, the Bible condemns divorce, but the Bible also condemns other things like males having long hair and the consumption of certain foods on certain days and whatnot, but people still do those things and yet no one does anything to stop them. Why are homosexuality and gay marriage the focus of Christian condemnation? What distinguishes them from anything else the Bible ever condemned?

If you're going to oppose gay marriage, then I would hope that you subscribe to every other damn thing the Bible condemns (or whatever else your religion might condemn if you are a believer of another religion that condemns homosexuality). If you're going to oppose it, tell me how it in some way affects you. Explain to me how it is ruining your life. Then maybe I'll even consider thinking about gay marriage being an issue. But it's a complete non-issue that as someone else said shouldn't be the government's responsibility. And as Louis C.K. aptly says, "Who gives a shit? It doesn't matter. It doesn't have any effect on your life, what the fuck do you care?"

I'm quoting this so it shows up on this page too.

It's quite embarrassing that a post like this had to be made. It's all common sense.

[+ / –]

You're talking about the internet.

Having common sense.

[Benjamin]

This isn't the internet...it's the lpa. :awesome:

[Vriska]

You're talking about the internet.

Having common sense.

3... 2.... 1... and lol.


If we're going on 'the Bible said so', then I guess we shouldn't have women teach men. Because the Bible said so.

Also, nobody should play football again, because of the whole pigskin deal. Because the Bible said so.

I guess we can sell our youngest daughters into slavery. Because the Bible said so.

The point I'm making here is this: if all the people who are saying homosexuality is wrong is using the Bible as an argument, be ready to own up to all the other stupid shit the Bible says to do as well.

And if you go, "Oh, well that book was written a long time ago. It was a different time back then." Well guess what?! THE SAME ARGUMENT COULD BE MADE ON THE VERSES SPEAKING AGAINST HOMOSEXUALITY.

If you're not willing to accept the entire book at face value, you aren't allowed to choose one line as the basis of why something is wrong.

What gets me is that it's supposed to represent the word of god. Some perfect, all powerful and all loving god. The bible should not have any mistakes in it. There should be no such thing as an apologist, otherwise it is an admission that it needs people to defend it. And it certainly should have less moral mistakes than the average human doing what they think is right. But I don't think the moral quality of the bible stands up to a genocidal maniac.

What people are effectively doing is singling out the nice aspects of a murderer and discarded the fact. Like how he always gave presents to his mother on his birthday, but dismiss that he killed someone because it was fun. Most people would not think to elevate that person to a role model status, but that's exactly what religious people do. Drives me nuts.

Stockholm Syndrome or something.

[Blackee Dammet]

To be fair, Christianity is basically how God actually is a jealous, narcissistic, blood-thirsty monster, but his kid was really a bro and he can keep you from being tortured for eternity.

...which is neither here nor there in terms of the thread...

[deftonesfan867]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fxsZ8g5Kfwk/TfYNt7cnrDI/AAAAAAAAA0E/NtIOv7IjEng/s640/How+the+Bible+Defines+Marriage.jpg

Personally, I find Christians to be the most disgusting, hypocritical creatures that ever walked this entire planet. Christians should not be allowed to marry. Actually, all Christians should be deported.

Oh, you mean that my opinion of disgust shouldn't weigh on the rights of other people? My disgust is my problem to deal with and I should learn to grow up? Ok then.

Here's another tidbit of morality: The Golden Rule, which not only one of the rules Jesus taught but appears in most religions before and after him. Treat others how you would want to be treated. When you treat gay people like dirt, I will think of you as less than dirt, and I will certainty not be sympathetic to your pathetic idea of marriage.

Hypocrite much?

Also I'm tired of the double standard allowed on this site.

If someone mocks someones religion it's all well and good, but if someone doesn't support what others support on here then they get shunned.

I'm really growing tired of post like this, and no I will NOT leave this site just because someone thinks it's OK to bash Christians every chance she gets.

As for the TT? I support gay marriage and just recently me and my gf went on a double date with some good friends of ours who also happen to be lesbian.

Oh and the kicker? I'm a Christian. So miss Kathy you can take your ignorance about Christians and shove it up your ass.

[travz21]

You clearly didn't understand her post.

[deftonesfan867]

You clearly didn't understand her post.

What part didn't I understand because I read the entire thing.

"Christians act likes jerks so I will behave that way towards them"

Also she's lashed out at Christians before in other threads so it's not an isolated incident.

[minuteforce]

What gets me is that it's supposed to represent the word of god. Some perfect, all powerful and all loving god. The bible should not have any mistakes in it.
However you decide to look at it, I feel that, since the Bible was ultimately written (and, later, translated into many different languages) by men, it's inherently imperfect. I'm not trying to defend the book or anything, that's just my understanding of it. :"

[+ / –]

What part didn't I understand because I read the entire thing.

"Christians act likes jerks so I will behave that way towards them"

Also she's lashed out at Christians before in other threads so it's not an isolated incident.

I'd think it was pretty obvious that the people we've been discussing are the vocal minority. Or vocal majority, as it were, when speaking of Christians.

While you may be the image of the ever-shining Paragon, you have to admit that Christians do not have that great of a track record. For as much hate as Muslims receive for their fringe groups, Christianity's bigotry seems to originate from a greater percentage of the masses.

You don't know what Kathy has experienced with Christians in her life. I don't know either, but I'm just speculating for the sake of a defense. Chances are she has a justifiable reason for telling off Christians in general. Perhaps every Christian she's run into has been a self-righteous jerk. Just because you're perfect doesn't mean everyone else is. And don't lie; you know of more Christian assholes than you would care to admit. I know I've met my fair share. Telling me that I'm going to hell unless I start going to Church, urging me to believe in Christ because 'I think you're an amazing person and want to save you from the everburning pits of Satan'. And don't get me started on the 'science'.

The point is, the track record of Catholic-stemmed religions is pretty bad. AGAIN, not to say that because of this there aren't good people that follow that faith. But you have to admit, your shit stinks like everyone else's. A bit more so in this case. So don't get butthurt.

[El Muerto]

You don't know what Kathy has experienced with Christians in her life. I don't know either, but I'm just speculating for the sake of a defense. Chances are she has a justifiable reason for telling off Christians in general. Perhaps every Christian she's run into has been a self-righteous jerk. Just because you're perfect doesn't mean everyone else is. And don't lie; you know of more Christian assholes than you would care to admit. I know I've met my fair share.


This answer is so general and meaningless. Here's a remix:

You don't know what Kathy has experienced with gays in her life. I don't know either, but I'm just speculating for the sake of a defense. Chances are she has a justifiable reason for telling off gays in general. Perhaps every gay she's run into has been a jerk. Just because you're perfect doesn't mean everyone else is. And don't lie; you know of more gay assholes than you would care to admit. I know I've met my fair share.

[Ryo Hazuki]

This answer is so general and meaningless. Here's a remix:

You don't know what Kathy has experienced with gays in her life. I don't know either, but I'm just speculating for the sake of a defense. Chances are she has a justifiable reason for telling off gays in general. Perhaps every gay she's run into has been a jerk. Just because you're perfect doesn't mean everyone else is. And don't lie; you know of more gay assholes than you would care to admit. I know I've met my fair share.

I'm sorry but Gay and Christian are not interchangeable. You can not just swap them and expect them to mean the same thing. Christianity is a Religion, based on scripture. Scripture that is homophobic, racist, sexist, and hypocritical. There is no "Guide to Being Gay"

Someone's attracted to someone of the same-sex and wants to have a sexual relationship with them? That's about the extent of the requirements for being gay.

On the other hand, to be a Christian a lot would say you have to accept Jesus Christ into your heart, admit that he is your Savior and say a prayer that he'll forgive you.... and to be a "Good Christian" you have to follow all these outdated rules that were messed up then and even more so now.

I guess what I'm trying to say is. Your reply is bullshit. Gays do not have to follow set of rules and thus every gay person is inherently different and so are their choices and their opinions. Their homosexuality is the only thing that links them and thus with every conversation with gay person you have a higher chance of experiencing a different outcome. Contrary to that of those who follow the rules of a 2,000+ year old book with bigoted views.

Anyway, quite frankly. Your "Remix" falls flat on its face.
----------
For those who oppose Gay Marriage, please read this, even if it isn't your child that got married. :lol:

http://thinking-critically.com/2011/07/16/so-you-found-out-your-gay-child-just-got-married/

[Blackee Dammet]

You don't know what I have experienced with Jews in my life. Chances are I have a justifiable reason for telling off Jews in general. Perhaps every Jew I've run into has been a self-righteous jerk. Just because you're perfect doesn't mean everyone else is. And don't lie; you know of more Jew assholes than you would care to admit. I know I've met my fair share.

[Benjamin]

I'm sorry but Gay and Christian are not interchangeable. You can not just swap them and expect them to mean the same thing. Christianity is a Religion, based on scripture. Scripture that is homophobic, racist, sexist, and hypocritical. There is no "Guide to Being Gay"

Someone's attracted to someone of the same-sex and wants to have a sexual relationship with them? That's about the extent of the requirements for being gay.

On the other hand, to be a Christian a lot would say you have to accept Jesus Christ into your heart, admit that he is your Savior and say a prayer that he'll forgive you.... and to be a "Good Christian" you have to follow all these outdated rules that were messed up then and even more so now.

I guess what I'm trying to say is. Your reply is bullshit. Gays do not have to follow set of rules and thus every gay person is inherently different and so are their choices and their opinions. Their homosexuality is the only thing that links them and thus with every conversation with gay person you have a higher chance of experiencing a different outcome. Contrary to that of those who follow the rules of a 2,000+ year old book with bigoted views.

Anyway, quite frankly. Your "Remix" falls flat on its face.
----------
For those who oppose Gay Marriage, please read this, even if it isn't your child that got married. :lol:

http://thinking-critically.com/2011/07/16/so-you-found-out-your-gay-child-just-got-married/

I agree. You can't replace that paragraph with homosexuals.

And the way I see it, homosexuals are only mean if they just happen to be mean people (not because they're gay). On the other hand, the Christians that bash gays are only doing it BECAUSE they're Christians (for the most part anyways). So that's why I have no problem with any of Kathyxx's posts in this thread.

[+ / –]

This answer is so general and meaningless. Here's a remix:

You don't know what Kathy has experienced with gays in her life. I don't know either, but I'm just speculating for the sake of a defense. Chances are she has a justifiable reason for telling off gays in general. Perhaps every gay she's run into has been a jerk. Just because you're perfect doesn't mean everyone else is. And don't lie; you know of more gay assholes than you would care to admit. I know I've met my fair share.


You don't know what I have experienced with Jews in my life. Chances are I have a justifiable reason for telling off Jews in general. Perhaps every Jew I've run into has been a self-righteous jerk. Just because you're perfect doesn't mean everyone else is. And don't lie; you know of more Jew assholes than you would care to admit. I know I've met my fair share.

I see what you're trying to do here. Let me enlighten you on the differences.

You're not born a Christian. You're (arguably, as many have been insistent on implying) born gay.

The Jewish people have suffered through a lot of persecution, and thus copy and pasting into my original paragraph is merely politically incorrect. In fact, were it not for the implications of Hitler, thus invoking Godwin's Law (which, in terms of internet discussion, usually implies the end of said discussion), there really wouldn't be a problem.

[Timothy]

Hypocrite much?

Also I'm tired of the double standard allowed on this site.

If someone mocks someones religion it's all well and good, but if someone doesn't support what others support on here then they get shunned.

I'm really growing tired of post like this, and no I will NOT leave this site just because someone thinks it's OK to bash Christians every chance she gets.

As for the TT? I support gay marriage and just recently me and my gf went on a double date with some good friends of ours who also happen to be lesbian.

Oh and the kicker? I'm a Christian. So miss Kathy you can take your ignorance about Christians and shove it up your ass.

The bolded text is meant to be an exaggeration.

[Blackee Dammet]

The Jewish people have suffered through a lot of persecution, and thus copy and pasting into my original paragraph is merely politically incorrect. In fact, were it not for the implications of Hitler, thus invoking Godwin's Law (which, in terms of internet discussion, usually implies the end of said discussion), there really wouldn't be a problem.


You don't know what I have experienced with Muslims in my life. Chances are I have a justifiable reason for telling off Muslims in general. Perhaps every Muslim I've run into has been a self-righteous jerk. Just because you're perfect doesn't mean everyone else is. And don't lie; you know of more Muslim assholes than you would care to admit. I know I've met my fair share.

I fixed it.

[travz21]

You don't know what I have experienced with girl scouts in my life. Chances are I have a justifiable reason for telling off girl scouts in general. Perhaps every girl scout I've run into has been a self-righteous jerk. Just because you're perfect doesn't mean everyone else is. And don't lie; you know of more girl scout assholes than you would care to admit. I know I've met my fair share.

[+ / –]

You don't know what I have experienced with girl scouts in my life. Chances are I have a justifiable reason for telling off girl scouts in general. Perhaps every girl scout I've run into has been a self-righteous jerk. Just because you're perfect doesn't mean everyone else is. And don't lie; you know of more girl scout assholes than you would care to admit. I know I've met my fair share.

This I agree with. Fuck girl scouts.

[Vriska]

Hypocrite much?

Also I'm tired of the double standard allowed on this site.

If someone mocks someones religion it's all well and good, but if someone doesn't support what others support on here then they get shunned.

I'm really growing tired of post like this, and no I will NOT leave this site just because someone thinks it's OK to bash Christians every chance she gets.

As for the TT? I support gay marriage and just recently me and my gf went on a double date with some good friends of ours who also happen to be lesbian.

Oh and the kicker? I'm a Christian. So miss Kathy you can take your ignorance about Christians and shove it up your ass.

You stopped reading before you got to my second paragraph, didn't you? Next time read my entire post instead of stopping at my hook.

I'll spell it out without the fancy rhetorical sarcasm now: Disgust of some group of people is not justifiable for removing their rights. My first paragraph there is to demonstrate to you that, just as some people find disgust with what gay people do, the Christians exposing this discrimination are not morally invincible either. And also see how it felt if someone took your rights away (which should have dissolved as soon as you got to the second paragraph, which was when you should have realized my first was only rhetoric and not an actual proposal).

And to spell it out further: I don't think Christians shouldn't be able to marry. I think everyone should be able to marry with a partner able to give legal consent. It doesn't matter what sort of experiences I have in my life. I do not get to discriminate against anyone, except in the instance where they are taking somebody else's rights away. I do not get to push my beliefs onto other people, and this is something that these anti-gay religious people need to get a serious clue about. The government is to be neutral on religious matters. Not pro or against anything. It is to sit back and let it's citizens make their own choices.





This answer is so general and meaningless. Here's a remix:

You don't know what Kathy has experienced with gays in her life. I don't know either, but I'm just speculating for the sake of a defense. Chances are she has a justifiable reason for telling off gays in general. Perhaps every gay she's run into has been a jerk. Just because you're perfect doesn't mean everyone else is. And don't lie; you know of more gay assholes than you would care to admit. I know I've met my fair share.

Nobody chooses to be gay. Seriously. Nobody chooses to go down a path where they are disowned by their parents and then beaten until bloody up by religious people and then later sent off to gay therapy camps where camp leaders unfairly sow hatred of their father into them. And as stated earlier, there is no "Guide to be Gay." There's nothing inherent in homosexuality that dictates how to be a moral person. gay people do not have an agenda to brainwash other people.

Furthermore, you cannot swap a privileged group for a minority group and call it the same. If you don't understand why, research what privilege means.


Religion is different. It is an intellectual belief. Nobody is born into their religion. They are indoctrinated into it and choose to ignore all of the cognitive dissonance from it.
It claims to be an authority on morality, without providing corresponding evidence. This means that religion guides people's actions in all walks of their life, be it personal, political, professional, etc. And then tries to spread that onto other people with or without their consent.
There is a simple fact that people need to be held responsible for their actions. If you choose to do actions that hurt real people based on supernatrual beliefs you have no evidence for, then you do not deserve respect. You are not God and thus do not know for sure if you are right. And you do not get to speak on God's behalf, no matter how much faith you have. If you think you can, demonstrate logically why your beliefs are right and everyone else's similar-but-different religious laws are wrong.
Furthermore, I am not naive anymore. People aren't religious because they logically weighed the pros and cons of each religion on earth and chose the one best one. They're religious because of emotional reasons. You cannot reason with a person like that; I've spent years trying to be reasonable. And they do not extend the same courtesy to me, evidenced by millions of people rallying behind conservative leaders who are so eager to take other group's rights away while hypocritically placing their own on pedestals. The only defense, therefore, is an emotional one. Don't waste your time reasoning to people who don't use reason. Just go around busting bubbles, instead.

[Benjamin]

People who think being Gay is some kind of choice are just kidding themselves. It's as simple as that.

And as long as there are people that DO think it's a choice, the discrimination won't end.

[travz21]

Using the negatives of being gay isn't a very good argument to why people wouldn't choose to be gay, though.

Straight guys don't like being beat up by a pissed off boyfriend of the girl they banged when he was out of town, but that won't stop them from doing the girl anyways.

Similarly, gays could choose to be gay just because their love for the same sex overcomes the negatives.


Though I don't think it's a choice anyways, so I don't know why I'm talking about it.

[Benjamin]

Though I don't think it's a choice anyways, so I don't know why I'm talking about it.

I don't know either. And in your example the guy could just find a new girlfriend opposed to gay people who can find someone they love and yet can't marry them or get harassed for going out with him.

[Louis]

Oh and the kicker? I'm a Christian. So miss Kathy you can take your ignorance about Christians and shove it up your ass.

You're receiving an infraction for that. You have clearly misinterpreted Kathy, and even having done so, you have no right to say something like that. It has no place in this discussion, nor does it have any place on this forum.

And let this be a warning to all of you that here we are having a discussion: all thoughts and opinions are welcome, but if you're going to say something to deliberately offend someone like that, you will suffer the consequences.

Carry on.

[Derek The Infamous]

In the same respect, deftones brings up a very touchy subject. While I will definitely agree with Louis that deftones should have not came at Kathy the way he did (sorry deftones, you deserved to get the infraction), how much better are we being exactly...if we're stereotyping Christian people the same way we are criticizing them for supposedly stereotyping gay people? I will be the first to say that organized religion in general disgusts me, and that I hate the fact that our Christian leaders are letting their one-sided views determine the laws in this country. But in the same respect I know that not every Christian is homophobic or bigoted like the ones we are railing against in this topic. There are some Christians out there who are for gay marriage, and even Barack Obama (a known Christian) is for repealing the DOMA even though his personal beliefs haven't made him completely accept gay marriage as a whole.

So there are some good Christians out there in the world, and although people in here are correct in saying it is mostly Christians doing the prejudice, people need to remember that not every Christian is a bigoted, rights denying asshole. There are good Christians out there in the world.

[Vriska]

On a side note, I am a person who deserves to be offended. I appreciate the help, but I hope you are enforcing the rules in search of fairness rather than protecting me, which is what I assume you are doing. I chose this battle and chose to phrase truths bluntly and I take no offense when people lunge at me in response.

On another note, I am making the general assumption that religious people who take the rules of their religion more flexibly (ie, the more left swinging christians) know who they are and know that my rants against the more conservative fire-and-brimstone types don't concern them. But since the bible states that it is anti-homosexual I will target the religion, regardless.


Using the negatives of being gay isn't a very good argument to why people wouldn't choose to be gay, though.

Straight guys don't like being beat up by a pissed off boyfriend of the girl they banged when he was out of town, but that won't stop them from doing the girl anyways.

Similarly, gays could choose to be gay just because their love for the same sex overcomes the negatives.


Though I don't think it's a choice anyways, so I don't know why I'm talking about it.


This was what I was referring to by switching a privileged group for a minority group and calling it the same. They're not comparable.

The pissed off boyfriend would probably be a one-off incident, pissed-off boyfriend is only one person.

It is much, much different than being attacked by an entire society and it's establishments, every day, all the time.

[Benjamin]

I just got to thinking how long it's been since a powerful speech (most particularly by a president) has been made. I just feel like a big speech by the president or some other influential person may really help getting homosexuals all of the rights that they deserve. Unfortunately, it does appear that Obama doesn't have enough passion for the cause (though he at least isn't anti-gay). But again, it wouldn't have to necessarily be the president.

I guess I'm asking for a speech equivalent to the "I have a Dream" speech.

[El Muerto]

@deftonesfan867
This is exactly why I didn't even bother replying to most of the comment here, I knew I'd just get an infraction. Because when you say something bad about a minority, you're saying that about the entire group, but when you keep insulting the majority it's ok because you're actually just insulting the "vocal minority" that you think is wrong.

Example:

it's ok to say:

- I will be the first to say that organized religion in general disgusts me

but it's not ok to say

- Gay people disgust me

Carry on.

[Vriska]

@deftonesfan867
This is exactly why I didn't even bother replying to most of the comment here, I knew I'd just get an infraction. Because when you say something bad about a minority, you're saying that about the entire group, but when you keep insulting the majority it's ok because you're actually just insulting the "vocal minority" that you think is wrong.

Example:

it's ok to say:

- I will be the first to say that organized religion in general disgusts me

but it's not ok to say

- Gay people disgust me

Carry on.

What would you say?

Are you suggesting that we shouldn't say anything bad about either? That organized religion and gay people aren't disgusting.
Or are you merely suggesting that we treat them equal: organized religion and gay people are disgusting.

Or are you simply being hypocritical, and you think criticizing gay people is OK while criticizing organized religion is bad, while saying that our reversal of that is unwarranted.


If you're gonna take action based on religious belief, you better be able to take criticism of it. Take responsibility for your actions.

I criticize organized religion because it (as a group) is hurting people. In case you haven't noticed, Gay Marriage is being stopped in many states by popular vote. I am not talking about the actions of a disproportionate minority, like saying all Christians are like the Phelps family. A majority of citizens in some places are bigots.
I am not criticizing gay people because they (as a group) have done nothing to hurt anyone. It's that simple.

[Todd]

People choose their religion. People don't choose their sexuality. IMO anything you choose to do should be fair game for criticism.

[Louis]

People choose their religion. People don't choose their sexuality. IMO anything you choose to do should be fair game for criticism.

This.

[Benjamin]

And in Derek's defense, he never said religious PEOPLE disgusted him. He was just talking about the idea of religion. There's a difference. Some people don't like homosexuality but are still able to respect gay people. I'd like to think that Derek doesn't hate religious people.

[Timothy]

@deftonesfan867
This is exactly why I didn't even bother replying to most of the comment here, I knew I'd just get an infraction. Because when you say something bad about a minority, you're saying that about the entire group, but when you keep insulting the majority it's ok because you're actually just insulting the "vocal minority" that you think is wrong.

Example:

it's ok to say:

- I will be the first to say that organized religion in general disgusts me

but it's not ok to say

- Gay people disgust me

Carry on.

It's simple: one's an idea (organized religion), and the other is an actual group of people (homosexuals).

There's a big difference between hating religion as an institution and hating religious people. Sure, there's bound to be some overlap (some atheists do hate people of faith), but being critical of religion in and of itself isn't bigotry.

[Derek The Infamous]

And in Derek's defense, he never said religious PEOPLE disgusted him. He was just talking about the idea of religion. There's a difference. Some people don't like homosexuality but are still able to respect gay people. I'd like to think that Derek doesn't hate religious people.
Thank you. At least you can understand what I meant without taking it out of context. I don't hate the people, I hate the concept of religion. There's a big difference there.

I despise organized religion (not just Christianity) because historically it has been responsible for some very terrible things, when people have committed atrocities in the name of a certain god or deity. It's not the people really who are to blame for my disgust, as it more so what these people DO in the name of their god when they are given the power to make a real difference. Such power could be used for good, and long lasting change...but instead it's being used to deny people of their basic human rights. All because of who they decide to sleep with.

[Benjamin]

I completely agree Derek.

I hate when religion does this to people


http://vimeo.com/25676383
Folks, this is Rick Perry. This is someone who could become our president. And he has no solutions to the economy other than praying to God and asking him to fix it.

[Ryo Hazuki]

Sorry but this is very off-topic, but how do you embed vimeo?!?

[Benjamin]

Sorry but this is very off-topic, but how do you embed vimeo?!?

I clicked share, it gave me a url, then I pasted it and used the [video] tag

[travz21]

I completely agree Derek.

I hate when religion does this to people


http://vimeo.com/25676383
Folks, this is Rick Perry. This is someone who could become our president. And he has no solutions to the economy other than praying to God and asking him to fix it.

He gets my vote. There's nothing wrong with people with that kind of mindset.

fnjfxCp92pc

[Ryo Hazuki]

I clicked share, it gave me a url, then I pasted it and used the [video] tag

Thanks. I've since learned how to do it. :lol:

Oh and BTW, Todd and Kathy are spot on.

[Derek The Infamous]

We've been able to embed Vimeo since Version 4 launched in early 2010. It's just nobody actually ever tried it, even though we advertised it as a feature :P. Also with LPA 4.5, we can now also do it in news posts.

Anyways, Rick Perry is a wacko. He was for Texas seceding from the Union just a few months ago.

[Benjamin]

He gets my vote. There's nothing wrong with people with that kind of mindset.

fnjfxCp92pc

Haha, that guy wins.


We've been able to embed Vimeo since Version 4 launched in early 2010. It's just nobody actually ever tried it, even though we advertised it as a feature :P. Also with LPA 4.5, we can now also do it in news posts.

Anyways, Rick Perry is a wacko. He was for Texas seceding from the Union just a few months ago.

And if I were in that situation, would I do it the same way I just did it now?

[deftonesfan867]

Kathy I want to apologize for going off in a tiff like that.

I shouldn't have replied in such a negative manner.

[Benjamin]

Just saw this on CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/07/20/minnesota.school.civil.rights.probe/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

This really hurts because this is a school district in my county.

The federal investigation comes after a string of seven student suicides in less than two years, which stirred public debate over the district's sexual orientation curriculum policy.
Parents and friends say four of those students were either gay, perceived to be gay or questioning their sexuality, and they say, at least two of them were bullied over their sexuality.

Makes me fucking sick. THIS NEEDS TO STOP.

[deftonesfan867]

When the parents are hopeless bigots usually their kids are as well.

Not always tho.

[travz21]

People need to stop killing themselves.

[deftonesfan867]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax96cghOnY4

[El Muerto]

People choose their religion. People don't choose their sexuality. IMO anything you choose to do should be fair game for criticism.

Majority of people don't get to actually choose their religion. You think it's so easy to denounce your religion when everyone around you is religious and your ancestors have been for hundreds and even thousands of years? I'd even say that publicly denouncing your religion is at least as hard as publicly admitting you're gay.

[Louis]

Majority of people don't get to actually choose their religion. You think it's so easy to denounce your religion when everyone around you is religious and your ancestors have been for hundreds and even thousands of years? I'd even say that publicly denouncing your religion is at least as hard as publicly admitting you're gay.

But you know what? The fact is that they can denounce it. It's one thing to say that they can't choose it, which is true in the sense that most people are indoctrinated from a very early age. But the fact of the matter is that anyone can denounce it if they realize that perhaps they are not as faithful to it or believe so much in it as they thought. However, one deciding to change their sexual orientation or denounce their sexuality is simply not the case, unless they perhaps realize that they were one and not the other, which is often how it is. People early on (I would guess) most likely assume that they are heterosexual because the world feeds them that "social norm", as it were, but like I said, the environment can help them make that realization later.

But again, if we're talking about decisions regarding the comparisons between one's religion and one's sexuality, there is undoubtedly more of a choice in regards to what religion or faith one chooses to believe in (or not believe in) than there is in regards to one's sexual orientation.

[Todd]

Majority of people don't get to actually choose their religion. You think it's so easy to denounce your religion when everyone around you is religious and your ancestors have been for hundreds and even thousands of years? I'd even say that publicly denouncing your religion is at least as hard as publicly admitting you're gay.

I denounced it, and much to my surprise, my family couldn't give a flying fuck. I bet a lot of people who are scared to come out of the Atheist closet would find the same thing.

[+ / –]

Majority of people don't get to actually choose their religion. You think it's so easy to denounce your religion when everyone around you is religious and your ancestors have been for hundreds and even thousands of years? I'd even say that publicly denouncing your religion is at least as hard as publicly admitting you're gay.

I denounced my religion and not a single fuck was given that day. It's honestly not a big deal.

[deftonesfan867]

Not a big deal in this country, but that's a different story completely.

[Todd]

So don't openly denounce it if it would bother so many people. You can believe religion is bullshit and still act like you're religious around anyone who might give a shit. I did that for years until I finally told my family that I don't believe this crap. All that hiding and pretending and they didn't care.

[Rocky]

I haven't been following this discussion, but I saw it here and had to post about this...

Last night I had received an offer to compose a song from a known campaign who is fighting for the right of gay marriage.
They sent me the lyrics. They want me to rap about how "homo-hating jerks" suck and how hard it is for gay people...and to buy their t-shirts because it is cool.

I support gay rights and human rights in general, but groups like this aren't helping change the minds of people who have hate in their hearts. Ewww.

[Derek The Infamous]

The best thing we can do now, and the best contribution we can give to society is to teach future generations to be more tolerant of people who are different then them or who hold different beliefs/sexual preferences than they do. If we teach our younger generation to treat everyone as equals, they will hopefully grow up bringing their message of tolerance to the world, and some of those kids will go on to become politicians and pass laws that will make this world a better place.

It may sound like hippie babble but it's true. Children learn what they see from their parents. Sure some break away and form their own opinions, but most of the time...if you grow up in a prejudiced household, you usually become prejudiced yourself.

[Rocky]

The best thing we can do now, and the best contribution we can give to society is to teach future generations to be more tolerant of people who are different then them or who hold different beliefs/sexual preferences than they do. If we teach our younger generation to treat everyone as equals, they will hopefully grow up bringing their message of tolerance to the world, and some of those kids will go on to become politicians and pass laws that will make this world a better place.

It may sound like hippie babble but it's true. Children learn what they see from their parents. Sure some break away and form their own opinions, but most of the time...if you grow up in a prejudiced household, you usually become prejudiced yourself.
agree 100%

No matter what lifestyle you choose to lead. It's just really disappointing when it seems like those who are being discriminated against are going down the same path as the people who judge them

[ThaHandyman]

If more parents really cared in did the following, we wouldn't need this thread.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzxCkUkiogc&lc=CBS4frhmrYZP1St-Rw54plIB9TJkZaWMKWWYI535Ud4&feature=inbox

Complete lolz and jks. kinda

[Pidgeon]

ok, here's the thing. Most people who are against gay marriage go to the bible. Here's my issue with that. The bible says divorce is a sin more than homosexuality, should we illegalize that? And also the bible used give the proper price for a slave and said it was ok to sell your daughter into slavery. should we follow those rules? What people forget is that the bible is only the perceived word of god. Not the actual word of god. Oh and marriage is not a religous thing so let it go lol