Concealed Carry On Campus

[ThaHandyman]

So I'm not sure if this is for all Universities, I believe it's just state universities. I'm, not sure about all the details, I just read it in the campus paper, but concealed carry has recently brought up. Personally, I'm all for it on my campus, serious background checks are ran, you have to file tons of paper work, and pay a fee. I honestly think the campus would be a lot safer (not that I ever feel in danger) with concealed carry. I don't think this is the best option for some universities (inner city), but mine is in a college town, and this place is super friendly to start with, so maybe that's why I'm not to worried. Thoughts?

[F-ck Casey]

this might be the dumbest idea i've ever heard. then again, the campus my roommate attends just had 2 shootings in 3 days.

[El Muerto]

Yeah, everyone carrying guns will surely make the place safer. Fucking twisted logic.. :rolleyes:

[Jeff]

Why would there need to be any firearms permitted on the college campus by students at all? This is an awful idea, even if there are background checks that need to be completed in order to carry a gun.

[ThaHandyman]

Yeah, everyone carrying guns will surely make the place safer. Fucking twisted logic.. :rolleyes:

Because their are idiots who don't care what the law says, and will still carry guns. It's a right to bear arms, and as long as training, background checks, and mental stability are enforced, I think its a great thing. Another law was you have to be 21, if it this was allowed, which I'm only 19, but I still think thats a good rule as well.

[El Muerto]

Because their are idiots who don't care what the law says, and will still carry guns. It's a right to bear arms, and as long as training, background checks, and mental stability are enforced, I think its a great thing. Another law was you have to be 21, if it this was allowed, which I'm only 19, but I still think thats a good rule as well.

Maybe you should first work on stopping those idiots who wear guns before you give them to the idiots who don't have them yet.

[ThaHandyman]

Maybe you should first work on stopping those idiots who wear guns before you give them to the idiots who don't have them yet.

The thing is most often people who fire on campus are mentally unstable, and/or disregard the law whatsoever. We had a (barely off campus) shooting, some dude shot this guy in the foot and jacked his laptop ran off, tripped in the volleyball sandpit, dropped the laptop, and ran off. We were lucky it turned out to be somethin really funny and the dude wasnt seriously hurt, and just cracked jokes the whole interview after. Anyway if the dude was packin (lawfully, repeat lawfully) I mean people wouldnt be runnin around tryin to hurt innocent people, cuz those innocent people can defend themselves.

[Chris(tmas)]

Yeah, everyone carrying guns will surely make the place safer. Fucking twisted logic.. :rolleyes:
AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!

[Todd]

Dumbest fucking idea I've ever seen. We need fewer guns in the world, not more.

[Dean]

I wouldn't trust students with my drink, let alone a gun. :P

[F-ck Casey]

Because their are idiots who don't care what the law says, and will still carry guns. It's a right to bear arms, and as long as training, background checks, and mental stability are enforced, I think its a great thing. Another law was you have to be 21, if it this was allowed, which I'm only 19, but I still think thats a good rule as well.

because you can enforce mental stability, right? dude. all it takes is failing one class or a bad break-up to make these college kids fucking snap. these kids are under so much pressure that they take prescription drugs to stay up all night and cram for a test. i don't know if adding a gun to the mix is such a good idea.

slow down, Charlton Heston.

[Todd]

because you can enforce mental stability, right? dude. all it takes is failing one class or a bad break-up to make these college kids fucking snap. these kids are under so much pressure that they take prescription drugs to stay up all night and cram for a test. i don't know if adding a gun to the mix is such a good idea.

slow down, Charlton Heston.
When I was at college, a student got a bad grade, snapped, and took a knife and powdered sugar into a classroom and claimed he had anthrax. No one was hurt, the swat team came in, campus was closed, we got the day off, fun was had by all. But, I shudder to think what could've happened if he had a gun. It could have been another Virginia Tech. Students should not be carrying guns on campus. Period.

[Dean]

I'm not necessarily against owning weapons full stop to be honest, but the whole "more guns means people think twice about messing with other people" thing is kind of naive and illogical to me. There's no guarantee that people are going to use them for good, whether or not they can get through screenings. You can just as well say that if guns are more available it means there are more people who have that advantage over those who are unarmed, or that it's easier for them to go toe to toe with others who aren't. Also, what's the rate of people in America who are killed intentionally with guns? It usually seems to be as high as most countries, and they have a pretty serious gun culture there as far as I know.

[ThaHandyman]

because you can enforce mental stability, right? dude. all it takes is failing one class or a bad break-up to make these college kids fucking snap. these kids are under so much pressure that they take prescription drugs to stay up all night and cram for a test. i don't know if adding a gun to the mix is such a good idea.

slow down, Charlton Heston.

Mental stability would be enforced the best it can be, they don't just hand out guns. This isn't a bunch of freshmen running around with guns. You have be 21, pay a fee, take a class, and be mentally stable. There's something unstable about someone who snaps like that, I worked 8 hours last night until midnight and woke up for a review session today at 7, thats college. I've never taken any kind of drug (sans caffeine), though one of my friends was tweaking before finals and failed her math class.

That's beside the point, they're not handing out guns, as serious as guns are taken these days (as they should be), I don't see them being misused. It's not some of us kids aren't packing already (i personally don't, just a knife in the car), this will just further encourage safely owning and operating a concealed firearm.

[Jeff]

Just because they don't just "hand out guns" doesn't mean that the mentally unstable don't have access to them.

[F-ck Casey]

No. You can run all the tests you want, but you never really know if someone will fucking snap and blow someone's head off in their English Lit class or something. It's not as black and white as you're making it out to be.

And, it's good to know that you know people who pack heat. Good for them. Guns on college campuses is a TERRIBLE idea. You're acting like being of a certain age and paying fees and taking gun classes will ultimately stop someone from gunning down a few people.

It won't.

[Ryo Hazuki]

A very bad idea. Regulations don't mean shit either. I mean, it's easy as hell to get a gun off the black-market or even at flee-markets. There are no police guarding yard sells or the like and I've been to many where people just paid cash, and were given firearm. It's a dangerous and bad idea.

[ThaHandyman]

A very bad idea. Regulations don't mean shit either. I mean, it's easy as hell to get a gun off the black-market or even at flee-markets. There are no police guarding yard sells or the like and I've been to many where people just paid cash, and were given firearm. It's a dangerous and bad idea.

See that's the thing, so many people argue for the legalization of Marijuana, and I am NOT repeat not guys! saying that these two are the same in any manner, but i'll continue, many people say "hey, people are gonna sell it, with or without legalization, why not just pass regulations and keep it legal."

Again, these two issues differ greatly, but I am underlining the common principles here. People will posses guns, legal or not, and surely, yes the passing of a concealed weapons rule would raise the gun count, but I believe there would be more well-intentioned people, as opposed to the ill-intentioned that posses them.

[F-ck Casey]

if it does happen (i doubt it), the whole situation is begging for another columbine or virgina tech. and it'll happen, because it would be legal to carry a firearm onto campus. all of this money spent to protect our schools, with security guards and police officers and metal dectors and shit, and then, awww fuck it, let's just legalize concealed carry. yeah!

[Ryo Hazuki]

See that's the thing, so many people argue for the legalization of Marijuana, and I am NOT repeat not guys! saying that these two are the same in any manner, but i'll continue, many people say "hey, people are gonna sell it, with or without legalization, why not just pass regulations and keep it legal."

Again, these two issues differ greatly, but I am underlining the common principles here. People will posses guns, legal or not, and surely, yes the passing of a concealed weapons rule would raise the gun count, but I believe there would be more well-intentioned people, as opposed to the ill-intentioned that posses them.

The simple fact is that more guns = more danger. Allowing guns in schools would only help the people who easily snap be more confident in carrying a gun in school.

Sorry, It's a horrible idea and I can't agree with it.

[Louis]

Here's what very much frustrates me about this right to bear arms that everyone is up about, and unfortunately, this is going to be a rant about conservatives who feel they're okay. Don't take this personally, if there's anyone here who believes in gun possession, but I honestly think it's incompetent to allow any sort of gun possession outside of the home, especially in a school setting.

The 2nd Amendment, which seems to be the most loved amendment by some conservatives, is only there because back around the time it was ratified, people need guns to start a militia. I don't know if anyone's actually ever read the 2nd amendment, but there's a commonly omitted portion of it that specifically mentions the significance and use of militias. Our right to bear arms is nothing more than a provision of weapons to the military, and now everyone thinks that we all should just be allowed to have guns.

I couldn't agree more with Todd in saying that the world needs less guns, not more. What good did having a gun ever really do in terms of campuses? Oh, wait, nothing. Because more often than not, guns + school = shooting the place up by someone or a group of people who are probably clinically insane. Concealed or not concealed, guns don't belong on campuses, because all it takes is one person to fucking lose it and start something.

While I understand the reasoning for people to own a gun, such as for self-defense purposes, whatever happened to just making smart decisions about where you go, who you're around, and what time of the day you're out and about? I feel like if people were just a little bit more careful with how they composed themselves and went about their daily lives, if people were a little bit more conscientious of how they interact with others...people wouldn't feel the need for guns.

But since people feel the need for them, then I feel like loosening up gun regulations is the wrong way to go about it. If you're going to give out guns, you need severe background checks. I could go into the details of how that would work, but right now it's not necessary. Point is, guns are stupid and unnecessary. Keep them out of schools, keep them out of our lives, I think we'll all be happier.

[Benjamin]

Allowing guns at school isn't going to protect people from the mental individuals that end up participating in school shootings. In addition it will just add to more shootings committed by people who originally wouldn't have had a gun in the first place. Yeah, um, terrible idea.

[Xero21]

and as long as training, background checks, and mental stability are enforced, I think its a great thing.

I'm sorry, but being an idiot just doesn't show up in any of that.

I can guarantee you that letting a bunch of hormonal wanna-be-macho college guys carry guns around universities is a horrible idea. You don't have to be a lunatic or have a history of major violence to pull out the gun you have in your pocket and shoot someone in the heat of an argument. Ridiculous idea.

[Omar]

I'm sorry, but being an idiot just doesn't show up in any of that.

I can guarantee you that letting a bunch of hormonal wanna-be-macho college guys carry guns around universities is a horrible idea. You don't have to be a lunatic or have a history of major violence to pull out the gun you have in your pocket and shoot someone in the heat of an argument. Ridiculous idea.

Fuck an argument. I'll shoot a bitch for no reason -- especially if you got that evil eye on me, homey. I'll gut you like a fish for that...

Yeah, no guns in school. It completely redefines the term "higher learning."

[Gloomy Mushroom]

America needs to toughen their gun laws period. I've heard some stories (not sure if they are true) that a person can walk into a gun store, buy one, and walk out (48 hours later with no criminal history check?). I shudder to think that it's as easy as that, put a gun in the wrong hands in the wrong mind of a youngster, and you've either got a Virginia Tech rampage waiting to happen or a Columbia High School shooting.

[F-ck Casey]

So, despite all of this, I'm thinking about buying a gun. Thoughts/suggestions?

[Harlz]

AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!

Thank you.


There's a reason Australia doesn't have shootings like America does. Or nowhere even remotely as frequently anyway... Guns are fucking illegal! They're made to kill people, why the fuck should that be legal? I'll never understand redneck americans, honestly.

[Dean]

So, despite all of this, I'm thinking about buying a gun. Thoughts/suggestions?
A cerebral bore.

[Timothy]

I think professors would think twice about getting all uppity over shit if they knew their students were packin'.

No, I haven't finished that Beowulf essay, you punk-ass motherfucker!

[Dean]

I think professors would think twice about getting all uppity over shit if they knew their students were packin'.

No, I haven't finished that Beowulf essay, you punk-ass motherfucker!
If it's a Beowulf essay I think it'd be more appropriate if you dismembered them with your bare hands instead of using a gun.

[Gloomy Mushroom]

If you want to defend yourself, take martial art classes or something. This "protecting yourself" reason is ass shit, seriously, there are more ways to defend yourself other than carrying a weapon.

[Benjamin]

If you want to defend yourself, take martial art classes or something. This "protecting yourself" reason is ass shit, seriously, there are more ways to defend yourself other than carrying a weapon.

I'm on your side, but that isn't the greatest way to argue it. Guns>Martial Arts :lol:. Really, if someone has a gun and they have their hearts on shooting a particular person, that person is probably dead, unfortunately. The only way to stop this nonsense is, indeed, gun control.

[Luke]

In my opinion, anyone feeling the need to have a gun requires serious psychological evaluation. If you think it's cool to possess a weapon designed to kill, or if you're paranoid enough to get one because you feel you need it to protect yourself from something/someone, then quite frankly there's something wrong there.

No offence to anyone, but the notion of owning a gun is cowardly, primitive and legal or not, downright stupid. The fact that so many people take to heart an age-old chapter from the bill of rights, whilst being ignorant of the idea of how different the world is now compared to when those amendments were made, is absurd.

So I think you can see where my stance on this issue might be.

[MKH]

We had a shooter in September. Guns = bad. Nuff said.

[Ryo Hazuki]

If you want to defend yourself, take martial art classes or something. This "protecting yourself" reason is ass shit, seriously, there are more ways to defend yourself other than carrying a weapon.

While I agree guns can be bad, I have to say Martial Arts are not going to protect you from an asshole set out to shoot you. Last year (I think) there was an attempted robbery only not far from where I lived at the time and the victim was a Martial Arts teacher. He got shot and died trying to defend himself.

Now, I agree that if there were no guns at all then Martial Arts would be a good alternative but until there is adequate gun regulation, it's not gonna help that much.

[Timothy]

I'm on your side, but that isn't the greatest way to argue it. Guns>Martial Arts :lol:. Really, if someone has a gun and they have their hearts on shooting a particular person, that person is probably dead, unfortunately. The only way to stop this nonsense is, indeed, gun control.

Yeah, I don't think that Kung Fu shit would fly in Baltimore.

[iNuBBiN]

What happens if everyone has a gun and one person decides to start shooting in a classroom? I think everyone would flip shit and start shooting at people. Or have a lot of drunk people at there parties start pulling out guns?

[Jeff]

Here's what very much frustrates me about this right to bear arms that everyone is up about, and unfortunately, this is going to be a rant about conservatives who feel they're okay. Don't take this personally, if there's anyone here who believes in gun possession, but I honestly think it's incompetent to allow any sort of gun possession outside of the home, especially in a school setting.

The 2nd Amendment, which seems to be the most loved amendment by some conservatives, is only there because back around the time it was ratified, people need guns to start a militia. I don't know if anyone's actually ever read the 2nd amendment, but there's a commonly omitted portion of it that specifically mentions the significance and use of militias. Our right to bear arms is nothing more than a provision of weapons to the military, and now everyone thinks that we all should just be allowed to have guns.

I couldn't agree more with Todd in saying that the world needs less guns, not more. What good did having a gun ever really do in terms of campuses? Oh, wait, nothing. Because more often than not, guns + school = shooting the place up by someone or a group of people who are probably clinically insane. Concealed or not concealed, guns don't belong on campuses, because all it takes is one person to fucking lose it and start something.

While I understand the reasoning for people to own a gun, such as for self-defense purposes, whatever happened to just making smart decisions about where you go, who you're around, and what time of the day you're out and about? I feel like if people were just a little bit more careful with how they composed themselves and went about their daily lives, if people were a little bit more conscientious of how they interact with others...people wouldn't feel the need for guns.

But since people feel the need for them, then I feel like loosening up gun regulations is the wrong way to go about it. If you're going to give out guns, you need severe background checks. I could go into the details of how that would work, but right now it's not necessary. Point is, guns are stupid and unnecessary. Keep them out of schools, keep them out of our lives, I think we'll all be happier.

I completely agree. I think when this subject comes up, people need to think of the Columbine and Virginia Tech shootings, before thinking it is necessary to be able to own a gun on school property.

[Gloomy Mushroom]

I know for a fact, if you carry a weapon in your home, you're more likely to hurt someone you love other than an intruder. I'm partnered to a guy who does BJJ (Brazilian Jujitsu) for a living and even he has taught me how to take a person to the ground only if I'm attacked. My brother was attacked by a group of Lebanese people on the street and it was six to one. He's a blackbelt in Kickboxing, and fought them off. Examples of why you don't need a gun. A gun is a weapon that can not only be fired at someone else, it could be used against you. Australian laws are tight when it comes to guns - you know why? We don't want effin' serial killers in our schools. You're more likely to find a derranged kid with a stapler or a baseball bat than a gun.

What if you're drunk and have a gun? What would happen if you gave every single bullied kid a gun, handing it to them like candy? You have the American Gun Laws. The NRA can seriously shove their redneck (sorry to say that) heads up their asses and reconsider their actions and how they can impact on our younger generation. It's not protection it's bullshit.

[ThaHandyman]

In my opinion, anyone feeling the need to have a gun requires serious psychological evaluation. If you think it's cool to possess a weapon designed to kill, or if you're paranoid enough to get one because you feel you need it to protect yourself from something/someone, then quite frankly there's something wrong there.

No offence to anyone, but the notion of owning a gun is cowardly, primitive and legal or not, downright stupid. The fact that so many people take to heart an age-old chapter from the bill of rights, whilst being ignorant of the idea of how different the world is now compared to when those amendments were made, is absurd.

So I think you can see where my stance on this issue might be.

No offense taken, but bro, I don't even know what to say to that! All my bros training for the marines and going to the boot camp and wakin up at 5:30 on school days to train to use weapons to protect us? I know we're in different countries, and I'd like to live in a gun-free world, but the bottom line is some people are dangerous.

[Vriska]

If you want to defend yourself, take martial art classes or something. This "protecting yourself" reason is ass shit, seriously, there are more ways to defend yourself other than carrying a weapon.

I'd keep it at just guns. Guns are simply unfair: your target is dead in the blink of an eye. There's too many histrionic people - not just nutjobs, people - that can seriously hurt someone on impulse with those things. Guns are like having the infinity plus one weapon in a video game on the first level.


Other weapons? Not the same. I go to a university and have to stay in a lab until late at night and then go home by myself sometimes. Then I hear about some chick who got raped out on the street and that does not settle my nerves so well. Mace or pocket knives aren't like guns. When you have to work to hurt somebody that's different than a gun.

[Mark]

I'm going to post an excerpt from a blog I wrote about why I left the "Condolences for Virginia Tech" Facebook page just days after the shootings:

"Anyways, I joined a group created to share condolences with those affected by the Virgina Tech shootings, only to find it overran with inconsiderate scum pushing agendas that these events wouldn't have happened if students at VT were allowed to "peaceably possess firearms". Are you fucking kidding me? First off, who has the nerve to turn a group created to share thoughts and prayers with the victims and their affected families and friends of this massacre into a gun rally? Secondly, that's the most asinine idea I've ever heard. Creating a school of 26,000 vigilante students wielding guns does not prevent violence, it only increases the chance of events like this occuring again. And who's to say that this shooter wasn't a student from on campus? Yeah, providing potential lunatics like the shooter with guns is a brilliant idea. I could not stand to be surrounded by such idiocy, so I left.

I am appauled by the inconsiderateness and nerve of some people who take advantage of tragedies like this to try to rally support for their personal agendas. Would you not be incredulous if someone came out and said in the wake of 9/11 that regular passengers should be allowed to carry weapons on board planes to prevent terrorist hijackings?

Then again, judging by the amount of intelligence portrayed by some people, somebody probably already has."

[Dean]

No offense taken, but bro, I don't even know what to say to that! All my bros training for the marines and going to the boot camp and wakin up at 5:30 on school days to train to use weapons to protect us? I know we're in different countries, and I'd like to live in a gun-free world, but the bottom line is some people are dangerous.
So why make it easier for them to be dangerous? :P

[Timothy]

It might not have been immediately post-9/11, but I have heard people claim (without a hint of sarcasm) that air travel would be safer if people carried guns on planes.

Because, as we all know, firing a gun on an aircraft is a great idea.

[Luke]

Yes because the solution to stop someone getting on a plane with a gun is to put someone on a plane with a gun. :rolleyes:

[ThaHandyman]

So why make it easier for them to be dangerous? :P

If you paid attention to what I've posted, instead of refreshing your brain as your browser does, you would have read that dangerous people carry guns anyway. Dangerous people carry guns anyway. Dangerous people carry guns anyway. Someone with the intent to harm someone, will carry a gun onto campus, regardless of the law.

As for the airplane matter, leave it in the bag, in no way accessible to any passenger.

[Mark]

What this boils down to is that people within a society are unpredictable, and living in an unpredictable society means that bad things occasionally happen. You can't prevent every tragedy from occurring, and trying to accomplish that impossibility only leads to more problems.

I can't see how allowing students to carry handguns on campuses, regardless of whatever regulations and background checks are implemented, makes those campuses safer places. It creates opportunities where people take it upon themselves to be vigilantes, wanting to be the glorified hero on the news. It's a dangerous road to travel down. If you want increased security, hire more security! Beef up your video surveillance and respond effectively to incidents where aggressive tendencies are prevalent in a student.

Think of it this way. It is arguably just as much a tragedy to have a vigilante gun-toter accidentally kill an innocent bystander while trying to stop a gunman. At least that could have been prevented by not allowing students to carry guns on campus.

I'm sorry Handyman, you seem to be alone in your opinion on this matter.

[Dean]

If you paid attention to what I've posted, instead of refreshing your brain as your browser does, you would have read that dangerous people carry guns anyway. Dangerous people carry guns anyway. Dangerous people carry guns anyway. Someone with the intent to harm someone, will carry a gun onto campus, regardless of the law.

As for the airplane matter, leave it in the bag, in no way accessible to any passenger.
That was unnecessary. Please try taking your own advice, though... it's only been gone over about a million times already.

[Benjamin]

If you paid attention to what I've posted, instead of refreshing your brain as your browser does, you would have read that dangerous people carry guns anyway. Dangerous people carry guns anyway. Dangerous people carry guns anyway. Someone with the intent to harm someone, will carry a gun onto campus, regardless of the law.

As for the airplane matter, leave it in the bag, in no way accessible to any passenger.

Dangerous people will shoot at people anyways even if there's no gun laws. Dangerous people will shoot at people anyways even if there's no gun laws. Dangerous people will shoot at people anyways even if there's no gun laws. Dangerous people will shoot at people anyways even if there's no gun laws. Dangerous people will shoot at people anyways even if there's no gun laws. Dangerous people will shoot at people anyways even if there's no gun laws.

[Harlz]

I'll say it again, since it's the most fucking obvious piece of evidence that carrying guns doesn't help.

Australia and America are very socially similar.
But we don't carry guns everywhere.
We have less shootings.


It's pretty fucking simple guys.

[Timothy]

What this boils down to is that people within a society are unpredictable, and living in an unpredictable society means that bad things occasionally happen. You can't prevent every tragedy from occurring, and trying to accomplish that impossibility only leads to more problems.

I can't see how allowing students to carry handguns on campuses, regardless of whatever regulations and background checks are implemented, makes those campuses safer places. It creates opportunities where people take it upon themselves to be vigilantes, wanting to be the glorified hero on the news. It's a dangerous road to travel down. If you want increased security, hire more security! Beef up your video surveillance and respond effectively to incidents where aggressive tendencies are prevalent in a student.

Think of it this way. It is arguably just as much a tragedy to have a vigilante gun-toter accidentally kill an innocent bystander while trying to stop a gunman. At least that could have been prevented by not allowing students to carry guns on campus.

I'm sorry Handyman, you seem to be alone in your opinion on this matter.

Pretty much.

And how pervasive are violent crimes on college campuses, anyway? As far as I know, the average U.S. college campus is pretty safe.

[Vriska]

If you paid attention to what I've posted, instead of refreshing your brain as your browser does, you would have read that dangerous people carry guns anyway. Dangerous people carry guns anyway. Dangerous people carry guns anyway. Someone with the intent to harm someone, will carry a gun onto campus, regardless of the law.

As for the airplane matter, leave it in the bag, in no way accessible to any passenger.


Carrying a gun = Dangerous. So not only do you have outlaws being dangerous, you have law abiding citizens being dangerous. I do NOT trust "law abiding citizens" anymore than I do someone "known as mental." Emphasis on the "known as." How do you find the people who aren't known as mental before they kill someone? We don't have psychic checks. Nor are NORMAL people any safer. The average communications major at my university goes to the bar 15 times per month. The five random freshman roommates that were randomly assigned to me were having a dramafest before fall quarter's end. The fact is that histrionic, angry people do NOT think their actions through before committing them. They will not stop and go "oh there might be someone else with a gun" and then lose their temper. They will lose their crap first and then get their own gun out and shoot the person they're mad at.

A campus full of guns would only discourage someone through an atmosphere of fear. That same fear would propel people to buy more guns to protect them from people who legally have guns, and it would continue to get tenser and tenser until something pops. And when that thing pops, you will have more bullets flying around than ever, and a net loss of more people. I rather have my tragedies containing a dozen people than a thousand.

This is a serious lack of thinking this thing through. Repeating the same thing over and over is more denialism than rational thinking.

[+ / –]

If I see people risking an increased chance of danger by carrying concealed firearms, I usually shoot them.

It's worked out pretty well so far.

[Ryo Hazuki]

But really, guns in school is a really fucking bad idea.
Sorry. But it's fucking stupid.

[ThaHandyman]

What this boils down to is that people within a society are unpredictable, and living in an unpredictable society means that bad things occasionally happen. You can't prevent every tragedy from occurring, and trying to accomplish that impossibility only leads to more problems.

I can't see how allowing students to carry handguns on campuses, regardless of whatever regulations and background checks are implemented, makes those campuses safer places. It creates opportunities where people take it upon themselves to be vigilantes, wanting to be the glorified hero on the news. It's a dangerous road to travel down. If you want increased security, hire more security! Beef up your video surveillance and respond effectively to incidents where aggressive tendencies are prevalent in a student.

Think of it this way. It is arguably just as much a tragedy to have a vigilante gun-toter accidentally kill an innocent bystander while trying to stop a gunman. At least that could have been prevented by not allowing students to carry guns on campus.

I'm sorry Handyman, you seem to be alone in your opinion on this matter.

No its ok, I'm alone on the forums, but not IRL. And thats okay, the point of this thread was to offer insight and get everyone thinking anyway! I've gained insight and shared by side of the argument, and will continue to do so.

'Beefing up security' with surveillance and whatever, this truly would be the best choice, more police? Of course, problem is its a public university, and the economy is already in the crapper, security would be nice but so is enhancing education. It's a little more complicated than 'guns are dangerous'.

[Dean]

It's not as simple as more guns = more safety either. You can't have it both ways.

[iamsatan]

Seems like unnecessary accidents would occur, I'd rather have schools hire more security so that students can focus more on what they're supposed to be doing i.e. learning not worrying about nut jobs shooting up the school. Also maybe colleges should start screening incoming students with psychological evaluations or at least offer free therapy for all students at risk.

[ThaHandyman]

It's not as simple as more guns = more safety either. You can't have it both ways.

I couldn't agree more, if this were a matter of simplicity there would be no debate! And I certainly where many of you are coming from, I just see things a different way.

[Benjamin]

I couldn't agree more, if this were a matter of simplicity there would be no debate! And I certainly where many of you are coming from, I just see things a different way.

With all due respect, I don't see a debate. I usually try to respect others opinions, but I just can't see how anyone can be on board with letting every kid at school having a gun. I'm sorry.

[ThaHandyman]

On a forum of younger, presumably (especially according to the political compass thread) liberal forum, yessir this is so. But in real life, on a more conservative minded campus, it is a debate. I'm not even sure how seriously it was being proposed, I just saw it in the campus paper, but it was worth discussing with a few of my friends.

[Ryo Hazuki]

How are you going to make a defense with Conservative?

[Benjamin]

I guess I was just trying to say that I ridiculously disagree with you :lol:.

[Gloomy Mushroom]

You have no right to take one safety's away, and the quickest way to do that is point a gun at them or threaten them with a weapon. Carrying a gun does not make you a bigger man in fact, it makes you less of a man. If we were to hand out guns like candy to every fucked up, derranged kid in every school under the idea of "protecting yourself against bullies" we would have massacres every day. You do not have the right to bear arms and you do not have the right to take one safety's away.

[ThaHandyman]

You have no right to take one safety's away, and the quickest way to do that is point a gun at them or threaten them with a weapon. Carrying a gun does not make you a bigger man in fact, it makes you less of a man. If we were to hand out guns like candy to every fucked up, derranged kid in every school under the idea of "protecting yourself against bullies" we would have massacres every day.
Read what I said about the requirements for getting a permit in the first place...You do not have the right to bear arms Not what my constitution says? and you do not have the right to take one safety's away.

Violence is not cool, guns, are not toys. The thought of a 'gun free world' has crossed my mind, it would be cool, the world would indeed be better off without guns. Nuclear weapons too. But as long as their here on earth, people who are seeking to harm someone will find a way to obtain a gun, legal or not, this is my point.
And as long as the wrong people have a gun, I will get one (I plan on getting my concealed permit this summer, but no worries I have no intent to bring it on campus lolz).

[Gloomy Mushroom]

Well there are many things wrong with your constitution and ways of governing no offence, and the right to bear arms is the main thing that I have a problem with. The right to bear arms is ass shit, as it's main defence is 'the right to protect yourself'. Yes you have a right to protect yourself, doesn't mention anything about having the right to own a gun or to acquire one. The only reason why the second amendment was brought into place was because a bunch of people were afraid that one day an organised militia would rise up against them and the right to bear arms would give them the right to stop a tyranny from happening. The second amendment rapes every word of the first amendment (the right for free speech) as free speech usually gives the opponent to abuse the second amendment (an example of why your Constitution/Bill of Rights hypocritical). It is actually stated in the second amendment: "A well-regulated militia … " but again, what's so regulated about a private citizen and a stash of guns in their possession? It's clear that this opening section of the amendment was not meant to be used in the context of control.

Like a famous first lady once said, Eleanor Roosevelt, to back up my argument against guns:
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent".

Come to Harlz's and my country, gun laws here are strict. You need a licence, you have to be registered with the Commonwealth database, and you need a thorough criminal check. But of course, criminals don't register their guns; that would defeat their whole purpose.

So how do we control gun violence when the NRA likes to bring the Second Amendment up, that clearly states no sign of control?

[Theazninvasion68]

Before I list anything..

You can probably predict what'll be said from me. :lol: As I'm what, <10% of what the common political viewpoint is of here? Yeah.


Anyhow... THEHANDYMAN YOU ARE NOT ALONE ON THIS MATTER.

:)


The argument of increased risk of violence will bring more violence (Pro-guncontrol) is easy to comprehend.

If the purpose of a firearm is to harm, then having more firearms available to harm is bad. Having firearms available on campus is bad, like really bad. therefore, we should not have firearms on campus. If this isn't what roughly 4 pages of people agreeing with each other/argue for, then i'm up in arms (harr harr :lol:) To add, since people are suspect to loss of self-control, it only increases the chances of violence.

The argument that fear of retaliation from anyone will prevent harm being done is also fairly easy to comprehend.

If in a class of 35 (or rather, 19-100) and a random person has a chance of carrying a concealed firearm, would you open fire on someone? If one wanted to force people, a hallway of people into a room with a firearm(gun-point), could one do so easily when the to-be-hostages might be armed? Consistently, it places the offender in a bad position as the victim is never entirely weak/vulnerable. Therefore, If a concealed firearm brings fear to a possible offender, then we ought to have concealed firearms to prevent violence.

I think this is a conservative's best argument possible. :lol: I mean, they could argue for other things, but it wouldn't be relevant. (Hunting - but thats as far as it goes really... :X)

To clarify... I might not have used the best words or best description, but I think we'd get a sense of what I'm trying to say.

One (Pro-control) is to eliminate a dangerous weapon from a place where instability and risk for violence could be high.

The other is to eliminate (reduce) a instability and risk by reducing the chances of occurances

We have to acknowledge some things.
1) Are we making the assumption that people make irrational, emotionally driven decisions, and will carry them out? eg, "That professor failed me, even when I got help and I did my best, and I still got a F. therefore, next semester, I'll kill him."

1a) It appears people will carry out these choices, and that they will do so because they have a firearm available.
1b) It appears people will not, given that a possible assailant might get away with one, but will face his mortality very soon, probably. Or wouldn't get far. Because someone else has a gun to stop them.

2) We make the assumption that firearms are only for killing people.

2a/b) It appears that, from slightly dated data, that most people own firearms for hunting (wildlife) or recreational uses (sport shooting). (~35% each.) Of the same data, most own a firearm for self protection (~40%)

--
source: http://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/165476.txt
--
(indeed I knowits dated, however, given its abstract, it seems as though firearm ownership is declining, and therefore when read above, should be slightly less.)
--
3) Do we make an assumption that only bad people obtain firearms?

3a) Sorta. It goes with the idea that firearms are meant to do harm, and will therefore go with it. It remains allusive, but it tends to be that people who are "crazy/bad/unstable" people are the ones who are the highest and most likeliest ones to obtain a firearm. That is, in this view.

3b) Sorta. It goes with the idea that bad people will only use/obtain a firearm to carry-out their horrible objective.

Of the facts...

"Those who own a firearm are likely to have injuries. (Something around 2x higher)"

Response: Well yes. However, refering back to the source (National Institute of Justice), a person is likely to purchase a firearm in self-defense.

A person will seek to purchase a firearm in self-defense because,likely, they believe it to the best possible method of self-defense.

Why would they seek to obtain such a weapon for self-defense? Possibly because they believe the area they reside in is dangerous. Possibly because they have been robbed/burglured(sp) before/and many times before. Possibly _______. What i'm trying to say here is that they have an external stimuli for which they are reacting to.

So if a person believes they live in a dangerous area/need self-assurance of security/etc.. then they will possess a firearm. If they possess a firearm when a crime is being committed in their house, then they will likely use a firearm to defend their property/someone.

Therefore, Of course, it is logical to conclude that "those who possess a firearm are more likely to be injuried".

(My second guess is that those who murder with a firearm are included. But I haven't researched it)

Moving out of an area isn't always an option, financially.

This is about schools and firearms, so.

Have there been more school shootings now than ever before? My hypothesis is that no. I believe that more stories are published, and given the nature of availability heuristics, it seems to occur more often, but the number of them are rare still.

Should we have concealed firearms on campus? Given all this...

I believe that we ought to have a person or two. Probably local police/hired guard who is armed. Other than that, students themselves? I don't know, but I really enjoy the fear of retaliation argument. If I were to have a gun, I certainly wouldn't pull it out against my fellow-classmates if i knew anyone of them could've been armed. If three people had concealed firearms in a classroom, and one of them pulled out a firearm against someone, i would suppose that person would have a tough time going through with the act. I think students ought to be able if they wish to ( of course with restraints such as checking in with the security office/permit/counseling + mental health before allowing an on-campus permit) .

[ThaHandyman]

Wow, well there ya go, someone who can more intelligently and efficiently express my opinion, and at that in a more oranized way. Well said.

[Benjamin]

Having a gun in your pocket won't keep you any safer if you didn't have a gun in your pocket. I fail to see how you can possibly disagree with that.

[Gloomy Mushroom]

Having a gun in your pocket won't keep you any safer if you didn't have a gun in your pocket. I fail to see how you can possibly disagree with that.

Exactly. Statistically speaking, if you're a gun owner, you're more likely to harm a loved one than an intruder. We have the police force to protect us citizens, they were brought in so us, the citizens would not have to take the law into our own hands.

I fail to see a rebuttal to my amendment argument.


A person will seek to purchase a firearm in self-defense because,likely, they believe it to the best possible method of self-defense.


Karate or other forms of self defence not only provide the perfect defence when needed, but it also gives you a work out. And a lot less people know how to professionally take on an attacker without the need to resort to weapons. So having an upper hand on a fist-to-fist combat is much better.


Have there been more school shootings now than ever before? My hypothesis is that no. I believe that more stories are published, and given the nature of availability heuristics, it seems to occur more often, but the number of them are rare still.

Statistically, you are wrong. The occurrence of having a high school shooting happen is more likely to happen than ever before, as a study in 2009 was conducted. More students are actually starting to fear for their lives because of uncontrolled circumstances in their schools because of these loose gun laws.

[Timothy]

High school is one thing, but the OP proposed concealed-weapon permits on university campuses. Which, again, raises the question: What's prompting this debate? Have violent crimes on university campuses been on the rise? It's hard for me to rationalize such extreme measures without any compelling evidence to back it up.

[Theazninvasion68]

Would you agree that there are people out there who want to harm other people?

If so, would you agree that the people who want to harm other people will use anything they can? From fists, bags, pens, knifes, etc..?

If so, would you agree that people who are victims of these attacks ought to be able to defend themselves? Be it that with other fists, bags, pens, knifes, etc..?

If so, would you agree that people who defend themselves have a right (or rather, should be able) to retaliate with anything in their power?

If so, would you agree that victims should not be powerless?

If so, would you agree that a firearm is the best deterrent for violence? (as it could protect the student.)

If so, would you agree that the offender, even if he did had a firearm, would pause when confronted with a gun? (Like, guns pointed at each other.)


If so, then it is not unreasonable to conclude that concealed firearms can lead to safety.

An examples of this within my life would be that I know a few good people who carry pocket knifes with them incase of a bad situation. They tell me that many more people carry pocket knifes then I would believe to be. ( I said like maybe 100? Clearly I was wrong, being too low :lol:)

but knowing that a few people carry pocket knifes, am I compelled to believe that if I wanted to harm someone with a knife, they would be defenseless ? And being that someone would be any random student I walked by.

I've really wanted to give someone justice for their bad-mouthing once, but I stopped. I didn't know if they were armed with a knife or if they knew how to fight well. I held myself back because I knew a few people had knifes in their pocket, and i didn't know this person. Could this person have a knife in their pocket? certainly, but why risk it? So I just let it go.

As we can see, knowing a few people have concealed weapons did deter me from assaulting the foul-mouth guy.

And probably, of all the cases and examples (And hypotheticals) would be similar to this. Had I known that he was defenseless, I would've gone at him, perhaps even obtaining a weapon for the next time I saw him.


I still fail how you can disagree entirely with me. Partly? Of course. Not entirely.

Do you believe that people should have autonomy? If so, would you agree that self-defense is part of autonomy?

I do.

Its tough to be self-regulated and autnomous if there are no constraints for which I cannot overstep.

[Dean]

I would answer yes to the first four or so questions there, but after that it's the kind of thing where you can't really paint it with broad strokes either way.

I think I said right away in my first post here that I'm not necessarily against people having weapons full stop, so hopefully people don't think I'm just toeing the typical liberal line haha, but you just can't account for how different people will react in these situations even if they are ostensibly sane and stable. As such, I wouldn't necessarily count on people to do the right thing if they were carrying firearms in public. That distrust in itself would probably be an issue. Maybe some good would come of it but I'm pretty convinced that the net result of it would be to exacerbate existing problems.

[Benjamin]

This is what I still don't understand: Why does a gun in your pocket make you safer? It's not like if someone shoots you, you can pull out your gun and shoot them back. Again Sarah, martial arts isn't going to do anything either lol. The problem is that it's impossible to defend yourself against a gun. The only way to keep people safe in these suggested places where guns are common is to get rid of the guns. Yeah, some people will get guns anyways, but there isn't really anything you can do with a gun for self defense.

[Gloomy Mushroom]

We can't ban guns. Because as much as it sounds like an Utopian idea, a person is going to obtain it one way or another. Military's would be defenceless against nations who do not prohibit weaponry etc. Tighter restrictions? A revision of the second amendment? Go nuts.

[Benjamin]

Just to be clear, I AM for guns in the police department, military, and security guards. I also realize that a lot of people truly are good about keeping their gone in their house at all times (so basically only using it if someone broke in your house). Unfortunately, not everyone is that smart, which is why I think restrictions are in order. Or at the very least, not giving every fucking kid a gun at a campus.

[Dean]

The thing is, in theory I'm more or less for people being able to keep a gun or something at home. But I'm stumped as to how you legislate people keeping it at home and not carrying it in public.

[Benjamin]

The thing is, in theory I'm more or less for people being able to keep a gun or something at home. But I'm stumped as to how you legislate people keeping it at home and not carrying it in public.

Exactamundo.

[Chris(tmas)]

Had I known that he was defenseless, I would've gone at him, perhaps even obtaining a weapon for the next time I saw him.


You wanna attack him with a weapon because he has insulted you?

[Ryo Hazuki]

^ I caught that and thought "What the fuck?"

Okay, your right to free speech ends the moment someone physically assaults you until then you don't have a right to do anything to them but insult them and bad mouth them back or take them to court if you want to but I don't see the point unless it's slander. But admitting you would attack someone for something they said? That's exactly why people don't need guns in school, especially if something as small as that can set a person off and want to make you physically hurt someone.

And yeah, I know it's hard because I've gone through it and I've had my down falls. I've got in fights over someone calling my mom a bitch, in high school and I punched him in the face as soon as he said it but I regret doing that and know that I over reacted but now a'days I just laugh off stuff like that because it's pointless to get upset over.

[Benjamin]

^ I caught that and thought "What the fuck?"

Okay, your right to free speech ends the moment someone physically assaults you until then you don't have a right to do anything to them but insult them and bad mouth them back or take them to court if you want to but I don't see the point unless it's slander. But admitting you would attack someone for something they said? That's exactly why people don't need guns in school, especially if something as small as that can set a person off and want to make you physically hurt someone.

And yeah, I know it's hard because I've gone through it and I've had my down falls. I've got in fights over someone calling my mom a bitch, in high school and I punched him in the face as soon as he said it but I regret doing that and know that I over reacted but now a'days I just laugh off stuff like that because it's pointless to get upset over.

At least you didn't have a gun. Or else you would be laughing it off in prison with 1st degree murder :lol:

[Ryo Hazuki]

At least you didn't have a gun. Or else you would be laughing it off in prison with 1st degree murder :lol:

You're misunderstanding me. I wasn't talking about laughing it off that I reacted in a bad way but that I laugh it off now when people say things to me like that. All the other times I've engaged in a fight at school was because I was being bullied and physically attacked, so of course I always fought back. :lol:

[Dean]

I've killed people with pure snark.

[Theazninvasion68]

hmm.

Well, lets see.


Statistically, you are wrong. The occurrence of having a high school shooting happen is more likely to happen than ever before, as a study in 2009 was conducted. More students are actually starting to fear for their lives because of uncontrolled circumstances in their schools because of these loose gun laws.

Likely. Well, maybe. But being that a correlation studies do not prove causation, I could say.. "Okay and...?" Well.. Okay. And...?. How do I know it was correlation? Because it is more "Likely". I was talking about number of school shootings that actually occurred, not the likely chance of it occurring. Children fearing for their lives because of uncontrolled circumstances... Again, you prove me right. What study was this? I wish to bookmark for future as a counter-argument I must address. Plus, It was only a hypothesis, I didn't do an archival study on it or whatever lol.

Next...


Having a gun in your pocket won't keep you any safer if you didn't have a gun in your pocket. I fail to see how you can possibly disagree with that

I can disagree, but I do see the validity of that statement. Having a gun in your pocket wont keep you any safer, just as having a knife in your pocket won't keep you safer, just as knowing fighting moves/styles won't keep you any safer, just as a couple of police officers won't keep you any safer than XYZ item. Yes, they are valid.

But my point is that having something that could overpower an offender could make a attacker second-guess. eg, knowing that they practice krav-maga or whatever will/might discourage most people from engaging in hostile behavior. Knowing that the victim might have a knife will discourage people who aren't handy with knifes away from attacking. (And yes, knowing there is a police officer somewhere on campus might discourage people from fighting.)

But do you see what I'm trying to get at?


Statistically speaking, if you're a gun owner, you're more likely to harm a loved one than an intruder. We have the police force to protect us citizens, they were brought in so us, the citizens would not have to take the law into our own hands.

And yet, there are things called accidents in the dark :P


Just to be clear, I AM for guns in the police department, military, and security guards. I also realize that a lot of people truly are good about keeping their gone in their house at all times (so basically only using it if someone broke in your house). Unfortunately, not everyone is that smart, which is why I think restrictions are in order. Or at the very least, not giving every fucking kid a gun at a campus

While not restrictions, imo, but a quick education on how to lock a gun up is likely to be in order. It could be quick, painless and easy. If I could have it my way, I'd ask all
the sellers to give ask the buyer to demonstrate how to lock a gun up (through the chamber). It can easily be done by having just 1 extra check box on the background check/license/etc.
Even the weakest lock made out of durable metal should keep most children away. (Like the $10-$20 ones... If you can afford a firearm, you can afford a $15 dollar lock) There are flaws, but eh.

And lastly..



I've killed people with pure snark.

You sir, are a real man. :lol:

EDIT: Tim: Because it is good to have these debates. :)

[ThaHandyman]

^This cat is unstoppable. Watch more Sons of Guns kids.

[Benjamin]

just as a couple of police officers won't keep you any safer than XYZ item.



I stopped reading your post after this statement. Police Officers do too keep you safer. For one, they actually know how to use a gun and know when it's appropriate to use it. Furthermore, the presence of a policeman may stop someone from committing a crime in fear of going to prison. Sure, there's a select few that don't give a fuck, but the majority of murders aren't going to kill someone in front of a police officer. Maybe you aren't, but I really hope that you aren't arguing that if the police can have guns, so can the people.



^This cat is unstoppable. Watch more Sons of Guns kids.

Unstoppable at what?

[Theazninvasion68]

I stopped reading your post after this statement. Police Officers do too keep you safer. For one, they actually know how to use a gun and know when it's appropriate to use it. Furthermore, the presence of a policeman may stop someone from committing a crime in fear of going to prison. Sure, there's a select few that don't give a fuck, but the majority of murders aren't going to kill someone in front of a police officer. Maybe you aren't, but I really hope that you aren't arguing that if the police can have guns, so can the people.


Well thanks for not reading my post completely. I feel the respect there.

Okay So Police officers will make it more safer. Well, does more officers make more safer?

Yes, they know how to use firearms for the most part, and when it is appropriate to. Often, they also carry a non-lethal as well (likely to be a taser)

But I have plenty of friends who own firearms and know how to use one, and how to use one safely. Though they wouldn't think to use it against another, if they must, they know what they must do to defend themselves. So police officers aren't the only ones who know how to use a gun, and when it is appropriate to use one. Other people know as well.

To further my point I'm originally pushing for, is that...

Yes, the presence of a police man may stop someone from committing a crime in fear of going to prison
yes, the presence of a martial arts person may stop someone from commiting a crime in fear of retaliation.

And etc.. til firearms.

I'm using an argument from analogy. It's not perfect, but its quite suitable.

Though, if we take a step back and look, its quite sad that a person would want to bring a weapon of any sort and hurt someone on an educational institution. Even punches over something silly.

That'd be a poor argument. Rather, Everyone should be allowed to purchase / and own a firearm, with the given conditions (Not a felon, ever been checked into a asylum, and the ones currently set/etc). So, one should be able to walk into a gun shop and purchase a firearm given that they're not insane/felon/other. And should not be excluded based on social rank/ authority.

Now, the two big arguments (Everyone should be allowed/Nobody should be allowed...) is another thread in itself.

[Benjamin]

Hmm, yeah. They could just have a crazy person detector when people walk in.

But seriously, you seem to think that every crazy person out there is in an asylum. It's the complete opposite. Besides, you don't go in an asylum until you do something crazy...felons aren't felons until they commit a crime. Was the person who tried to kill Congresswoman Giffords checked into an asylum? No.

[Theazninvasion68]

No, I don't. Yes, I know.

But is it reasonable to say and conclude "Well, I don't know how many crazy people there are out there. Since we can't tell how many or who will be crazy people, it is best to assume that everyone is crazy then." ?
(Crazy/felons, etc)

If so, why?

If I'm mistaken, clarify please :)

[Benjamin]

What I'm saying is that it's impossible to just say "Allright, everyone can have a gun except for the crazy people" because it's impossible to know if someone is crazy or not.

The only way to prevent crazy people from having guns is to have strict gun control laws.

I'm not assuming that everyone in the world is crazy, I'm saying that there are too many idiots to just let everyone have guns. In a perfect world, everyone that has a gun would just keep it in their house for people that break in. That, obviously, isn't the case.

[ThaHandyman]

Are we missing yet again what was posted 10x in this thread? There would be strict guidelines to even obtain a gun. Yall thinkin they're just bein handed out to students and pedestrians. There are rules and guidelines set in place, and for a reason.

[Dean]

Are we missing yet again what was posted 10x in this thread? There would be strict guidelines to even obtain a gun. Yall thinkin they're just bein handed out to students and pedestrians. There are rules and guidelines set in place, and for a reason.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5046/5323763167_2e52f6336c.jpg
You say the same thing over and over and people have posted the same counterpoint pretty much every time. Personally, I give up.

[Ryo Hazuki]

Well, circular arguments usually (i.e always) end up going around in circles, especially when circular logic is used.

[Benjamin]

Are we missing yet again what was posted 10x in this thread? There would be strict guidelines to even obtain a gun. Yall thinkin they're just bein handed out to students and pedestrians. There are rules and guidelines set in place, and for a reason.

Unlike Dean, I'm going to try one last time. Strict gun laws aren't going to prevent crazy people from getting guns. Because, as we have said 10x already, you can't look at somebody or even look at their paperwork and just somehow know that they can't be trusted. Hell, forget "crazy people." Even normal people, given certain circumstances, can slip up.

Also, nobody in this thread has made any logical argument regarding why having more guns makes us safer. And really, there isn't one.

[Theazninvasion68]

Is this to say that the few people must ruin it for everyone else then?

continually, it sounds like a general distaste for people, so rather trust them to do the right thing, you take that responsibility out of them and ask another person to do so (aka police officer.)

And why does it seem that I'm not making a logical argument when I am? And Jesse, well no. The arguments are not circular so much as they're being repeated. :)

Guns can and have the potential to make us safer in that it disuades people from commiting violence. The same argument can be applied to those who know martial arts, or anything self-defense.

In-fact, I'd make the same argument for anything regarding self-defense.
--------
If self-defense is a thing everyone has a right to, then it ought to be available to everyone.
Self-defense is a thing that everyone has a right to.
Therefore, it ought to be available to everyone.
A Firearm is an item that can be used for self-defense.
Therefore, a firearm should be available to everyone for self-defense.
--------
I don't know how much more logical I can get. That's essentially pure logic.

One could replace [firearm] for knife, martial arts, etc.

Yes, I understand firearm regulation.
Yes, I know and understand that we can't know for sure about everyone.

But no, we shouldn't disallow many people based on the few people that make the exception to being good.

And "few"? Well..

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp#crime (primary source)


As of 2009, the United States has a population of 307 million people. (Census.gov)

Roughly 16,272 murders were committed in the United States during 2008. Of these, about 10,886 or 67% were committed with firearms. (fbi.gov)

That equates to around 0.00354% of all firearm murders to population.

A 1982 survey of male felons in 11 state prisons dispersed across the U.S. found

• 34% had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"

• 40% had decided not to commit a crime because they "knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun"

• 69% personally knew other criminals who had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"

(Book:, please refer to website for source.)

This only furthers my argument. I'm aware of the the vulnerability, and criminal justice system part, but one of them is another debate in itself, and another is..well, more facts (Actually predictions, if you check the source: Report: Lifetime likelihood...)

But think of that. 69% of felons knew other criminals had been scared off, and 40% had stopped (again, my argument in other posts...) because of the belief of possession of firearms.

And these are not prediction statistics as stated before, these are data-collected statistics. (said in another term, These are what is reported, not likely to happen reported.)

firearm Accidents happening in home that are non-fatal account for a very small percentage, relative to all other accidents. (0.05%) Fatal firearm accidents only account for a very small percentage again. (0.5%). Actually, there were only 613 total. Comparatively, this is a very VERY rare occurring thing.

If you refute this, then all, if not most, pro-firearm arguments are out, and all pro-control arguments are out, since those can be logically determined to their conclusion. In essence: This has to be the end, nothing more can be debated that I can see.(Unless someone brings something up, which I'm starting to doubt now)

NOW: this isn't to say everyone should get one, or has to obtain one. I'm saying that it should be available at the gun shop. I'm not also saying that violence doesn't happen, because I know people can abuse things, and a firearm is no exception. But to let a small amount of people (Again, 0.00354% of the population. In fact, my college has more people than that.) make the exception to many people is an erroneous judgement.


Oh, also.


Even normal people, given certain circumstances, can slip up.

However.

A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 3.5% of households had members who had used a gun "for self-protection or for the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere." Applied to the U.S. population, this amounts to 1,029,615 such incidents per year

So 1 million people have slipped up? Nope.

[Benjamin]

I'm done as well. You are making claims that in my humble opinion are far from true.

[Theazninvasion68]

Well thats that then. We agree to disagree.

Now, Super Mario Kart anyone? :awesome:

[ThaHandyman]

Now, Super Mario Kart anyone? :awesome:

Well we better only let the police get power ups, wouldn't want all those crazy people firing those koopa shells around!

[Theazninvasion68]

Well we better only let the police get power ups, wouldn't want all those crazy people firing those koopa shells around!

...

...Dibs on golden mushrooms!