US Politician is Shot, In Critical Condition

[Benjamin]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/08/arizona.shooting/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

My condolences go out to U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords's family and the families of the other 5 people that have been killed. :( I hope this bastard is locked away for a long, long time. How can politics motivate someone to commit murder (assuming that's the motivation)?

Edit: It appears there's conflicting reports whether she's actually dead or not.

Edit2: Now Doctors are "optimistic" that she will NOT die. Although a full recovery may not be possible. I guess the original reports were based on assumptions.

[Derek The Infamous]

Rest in peace. My condolences go out to her family, and the families of the others who died.

Also I hate to make this political: http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/comment/7/2011/01/c66b788987c541b760ee97e6ce14835c/340x.jpg

Look who's on the list, and look at the ad. Gun targets, and a tagline telling people to take a stand. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a crazy Palin supporter. As it stands, that ad is reprehensible and morally irresponsible.

[F-ck Casey]

Let's wait a little bit before we start throwing out accusations about whether this person was a "crazy Republican" or whatever. That's kind of disgusting, especially right after someone has been murdered. That's not the important issue here, someone is dead and a family is destroyed.

[Dean]

Rest in peace. My condolences go out to her family, and the families of the others who died.

Also I hate to make this political: http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/comment/7/2011/01/c66b788987c541b760ee97e6ce14835c/340x.jpg

Look who's on the list, and look at the ad. Gun targets, and a tagline telling people to take a stand. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a crazy Palin supporter. As it stands, that ad is reprehensible and morally irresponsible.
What the hell.

[Derek The Infamous]

I'll agree that it may be morally irresponsible of me to jump to such a conclusion without concrete detail on the shooter, and I'll be the first to admit that. It just seems a little coincidental given the ad and the nature of it.

Let me be one to say that no matter what the motivation, it's still a completely abominable act. No reason is ever good to kill another human being, and I am disgusted as you are. I can only hope the others that are wounded pull through. I pray for the families of the victims, both dead and alive.

[Vriska]

That is the most depressing, undemocratic thing I've seen.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/nationworld/os-congresswoman-shot-in-arizona-20110108,0,6020181.story
This article says that she was Jewish, though the recent anti-health reform (particularly from Sarah Palin) seems like a bigger influence for death threats against this person. If this is a right wing terrorist act- that would make it pretty high on the hypocritical scale.

I also see conflicting sources, some of them admit that her condition is uncertain. It's easier for me to think that she was mislabeled as dead by someone and that news spread around.

[Benjamin]

For all we know, it was some crazy guy who just wanted his 15 minutes of fame. There's a lot of mental people out there.

[Derek The Infamous]

@Kathyxx, if I'm not mistaken...it was officially confirmed by police in the town it happened that she has died. It's very unfortunate and completely senseless :(.

[Todd]

Let's wait a little bit before we start throwing out accusations about whether this person was a "crazy Republican" or whatever. That's kind of disgusting, especially right after someone has been murdered. That's not the important issue here, someone is dead and a family is destroyed.

People don't shoot politicians they agree with.

[Benjamin]

@Kathyxx, if I'm not mistaken...it was officially confirmed by police in the town it happened that she has died. It's very unfortunate and completely senseless :(.

I'm getting most of the info from CNN, and they originally said the same thing, but now they're backing off saying there's conflicting reports. Some reports say she's in surgery as we speak. Also, there's an apparent press conference from the hospital within the hour. But if she was really shot point blank in the head, her odds aren't looking good.

[F-ck Casey]

Way to miss my point, Todd. This person very well could have been a crazy Palin mark, but really, who gives a fuck right now? Someone was killed and others are injured, and all you guys can do is point fingers and focus on the agenda of the shooter. Why don't you take a step back from your liberal soapbox and think about the families that are affected by this? It's virtually the same as wondering if a celebrity or a sports icon died of a drug overdose or committed suicide right as the news breaks. There is a time and place for speculation and whatnot, right after the aforementioned murder is definitely not the time.

Have a little respect.

[Derek The Infamous]

Let's just drop this for right now. Me and Todd aren't the only one thinking this is politically motivated (a large number of news outlets are actually referring to the image I posted above as well) but it's not the time to have a political argument. Like you said, now is a time for respect and mourning.

[Benjamin]

Way to miss my point, Todd. This person very well could have been a crazy Palin mark, but really, who gives a fuck right now? Someone was killed and others are injured, and all you guys can do is point fingers and focus on the agenda of the shooter. Why don't you take a step back from your liberal soapbox and think about the families that are affected by this? It's virtually the same as wondering if a celebrity or a sports icon died of a drug overdose or committed suicide right as the news breaks. There is a time and place for speculation and whatnot, right after the aforementioned murder is definitely not the time.

Have a little respect.

Well, it's not like it JUST happened. It happened 1 or 2 hours ago. As a very distant outsider, there's only so much mourning you can do before you start asking questions. This will be the talk at some point or another, I don't see the big deal in discussing it now.

[Derek The Infamous]

As I said, above your post...let's agree to drop this for now until more information becomes available (including confirmation of death). Right now it's appropriate to give the families both your thoughts and prayers.

[Todd]

Way to miss my point, Todd. This person very well could have been a crazy Palin mark, but really, who gives a fuck right now? Someone was killed and others are injured, and all you guys can do is point fingers and focus on the agenda of the shooter. Why don't you take a step back from your liberal soapbox and think about the families that are affected by this? It's virtually the same as wondering if a celebrity or a sports icon died of a drug overdose or committed suicide right as the news breaks. There is a time and place for speculation and whatnot, right after the aforementioned murder is definitely not the time.

Have a little respect.

It matters because as far as I can tell, they have not yet caught the suspect and if the shooter is going off of that cunt Sarah Palin's "target list" then there are more lives in danger.

[F-ck Casey]

Alright, yeah, whatever, 1 or 2 hours ago means it didn't JUST happen. I'm not even going to argue about any of that, because my point is, yeah, Palin had a banner and told her supporters to take a stand. I'm almost 100% sure she meant for everyone to go out and try to assassinate these people. Palin isn't the problem here, the problem is dumb, passionate political supports that will do anything for the cause. This will all get spun to make Palin look bad (especially on here), when that shouldn't be the issue.

This isn't even political to me, it obviously runs deeper than that. But haters gonna hate, and of course the most logical scapegoat will be Sarah Palin because, rawr, she's evil and a stupid bitch.

[Derek The Infamous]

The suspect was caught and arrested, Todd. He's been apprehended for a while. As for her status, I'm not sure when this was updated last but http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/rep-gabrielle-giffords-shot-grocery-store-event/story?id=12571452 says she's alive, and this comes straight from her husband.

[Benjamin]

Now it looks like a Federal Judge was also among the victims shot, at least according to CNN. They change what's apparently happened every 5 minutes...it also says she is indeed in surgery.

[Xero21]

Yeah, it's been confirmed by the hospital that Giffords is alive, in critical condition, and in surgery.

[Derek The Infamous]

Yeah, it's been confirmed by the hospital that Giffords is alive, in critical condition, and in surgery.

Thank god. I know the wound is usually fatal but I am hoping she makes it through.

[Dean]

This will all get spun to make Palin look bad (especially on here)
Like anyone else has to try to make her look bad.

I hope Glifford pulls through if she actually is still alive.

[Derek The Infamous]

As far as I know it was her aide who has died, which lead to some confusion. She's still alive, but in very critical condition. This came from the hospital, and the President. We can only hope that she makes it.

[Vriska]

Im not for so much as stopping for so much as following all the leads.
She might have been shot by right wingers,
she could have been also shot by a anti-semetic bigot.
Or by a Muslim terrorist, like what happened at that Texas camp.


Thank goodness she's alive so far. Here's hoping that she can pull through.


Alright, yeah, whatever, 1 or 2 hours ago means it didn't JUST happen. I'm not even going to argue about any of that, because my point is, yeah, Palin had a banner and told her supporters to take a stand. I'm almost 100% sure she meant for everyone to go out and try to assassinate these people. Palin isn't the problem here, the problem is dumb, passionate political supports that will do anything for the cause. This will all get spun to make Palin look bad (especially on here), when that shouldn't be the issue.

This isn't even political to me, it obviously runs deeper than that. But haters gonna hate, and of course the most logical scapegoat will be Sarah Palin because, rawr, she's evil and a stupid bitch.



At least for the time being, yes.

Here's the thing, if you have a very large audience that you have a large influence over, you need to watch what you say, even if it may be counterintuitive for you to do so. Because your supporters may take your rhetoric as gospel. Sarah Palin will get fingers pointed at for the time being not just having a little picture with crosshairs on it, but for her entire rhetoric style of fear mongering and whipping up a base of supporters who have high running emotions and no emphasis on keeping a cool head at the same time.

It's like the scenario that people ask "If you could go back in time, would you kill Hitler?" Hitler was just one dictator that arose from the social conditions of his time. Kill him, and just another dictator might as well have taken his place. If this killer was caught before he shot anyone, there may be more killers out there with this mentality, and hencefourth she may have been shot by another person. It is reasonable then to look for the source of these emotions and nip it in the bud, and in this case it's people like Sarah Palin and right wing media personalities like Glenn Beck who like to dress up paranoia and such without regard for the rules of logical argument. Pointing the finger at these people sounds justified to me. They need to be held accountable for their rhetoric.

[Todd]

She might have been shot by right wingers,
she could have been also shot by a anti-semetic bigot.

As a liberal Jew who's had experience with both, I can tell you that there isn't a difference between the two. Not all right wingers are anti-Semitic bigots, but I have not come across an anti-Semitic bigot who wasn't a right wing nutjob.

[F-ck Casey]

Let's blame the politicians for not saying outright, "We don't mean take a stand as in kill these people.", and completely ignore the fact that, maybe, the blame lies in these idiots that think Sarah Palin or Glenn Beck want these members of the opposing party murdered and lynched. It takes a special kind of moron to come to that conclusion.

No one is at fault here but the gunman himself.

[Derek The Infamous]

I really didn't want to continue this as evidenced a page back, but while we're at it...it takes a special type of politician and media personality to take advantage of the fears and ideologies of these "special kinds of morons" and manipulate them to follow their lopsided political agendas. Whatever way you spin it, it's been clear for ages that these type of people exist out there (they're referred to as the 'lunatic fringe') and yet these people keep pandering to them, and feeding into the deep seated paranoia that these loons have about their country.

Sarah Palin told people to "take a stand" and later named the same people in an ad calling them "the prescription" and asking their supporters to provide "the cure". Whatever way you spin it, the constant fear-mongering and lies that these people spread to their constituents...along with the negative imagery of gun sights in ads (naming one of the recently attacked as a target) is irresponsibly guiding people towards illogical conclusions and is to blame for this sort of behavior. Even if it didn't create this situation, it very well could down the road. It's reprehensible and unacceptable in today's society.

[Benjamin]

Doctors are optimistic of some form of recovery at the moment. Thank god.

[Derek The Infamous]

Doctors are optimistic of some form of recovery at the moment. Thank god.

Considering the wound and force of the shot (point blank), that's absolutely incredible. She's an inspiration.

[Blackee Dammet]

I am a terrible person.

Staff edit: Deleted. NOT funny or appropriate.

[Benjamin]

It goes to show you that you can't believe anything the media says until someone directly involved (in this case the doctor) speaks out. I wish I could change the thread title, haha.

But regardless, it's still a horrendous crime and in the coming days, there will be all sorts of rumors/conspiracies getting out there, I'm sure.

[Derek The Infamous]

Edited for you.

[Xero21]

Having viewed this guy's YouTube account and videos, all discussion of political motivation should stop right now. This man is mentally ill, as a Psychology major I'm very sure he's manic, and needs to be on medication.

He talks about mind control and one of his videos depicts a new letter he is adding to the alphabet because we are in control of grammar, if we are literate. He is not sane.

How people like this can get their hands on guns is beyond me.

[Vriska]

Having viewed this guy's YouTube account and videos, all discussion of political motivation should stop right now. This man is mentally ill, as a Psychology major I'm very sure he's manic, and needs to be on medication.

He talks about mind control and one of his videos depicts a new letter he is adding to the alphabet because we are in control of grammar, if we are literate. He is not sane.

How people like this can get their hands on guns is beyond me.

Is it this guy? http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10#p/u/2/PnNx0WThoF0

Got that from a rumor. Confirmation would help a lot.

And this guy is a nut. Not the nuttiest I've seen on youtube though, which scares me.

[Derek The Infamous]

That in no way rules out political motivation. A guy can be a crazy person and still act based on political beliefs.

[Xero21]

Is it this guy? http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10#p/u/2/PnNx0WThoF0

Got that from a rumor. Confirmation would help a lot.

And this guy is a nut. Not the nuttiest I've seen on youtube though, which scares me.

That's him, yes. He's either manic or schizophrenic.

[Xero21]

That in no way rules out political motivation. A guy can be a crazy person and still act based on political beliefs.

In the videos, he spouts off on some general anti-government non-sense. So I guess what I mean't to say is that it has nothing to do with political parties.

Though I still kind of disagree. If someone is crazy, their illness is their prime motivation.

[Vriska]

That in no way rules out political motivation. A guy can be a crazy person and still act based on political beliefs.

At that point, however, they would be really skewed versions of those political beliefs that aren't held by even a significant minority.

The clarify: his line of reasoning isn't consistent with the normal right wing fringe. If you call that reasoning.

[Derek The Infamous]

In fairness though, don't you have to be crazy to commit an act like this though? I hate certain people, and certain things...but I'd never kill someone over it. You have to be a mentally ill person to do this.

[Xero21]

In fairness though, don't you have to be crazy to commit an act like this though? I hate certain people, and certain things...but I'd never kill someone over it. You have to be a mentally ill person to do this.

True enough, but again just by viewing the way this man writes, the disjointed rambling and grandiose delusions going through his mind, I almost guarantee he has a particular kind of mental illness that is treatable.

And had he been being treated, this tragedy may not have had to happen.

[Vriska]

In fairness though, don't you have to be crazy to commit an act like this though? I hate certain people, and certain things...but I'd never kill someone over it. You have to be a mentally ill person to do this.

Unfortunately, no.

Abortion Dr. George Tiller, one of the only doctors performing late term abortions on women whose lives were in danger, and then mocked by O'Rielly in over 20 episodes on Fox News... was eventually murdered by an activist while he was in church. Some 'pro-life' activists went as far as celebrating this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Tiller

[Todd]

http://f.cl.ly/items/2H103i3i231m000d3u0q/original.png

I hope Sarah Palin is proud of herself. She created this.

I'm a liberal, a Jew, a supporter of health care reform, an enemy of the NRA and supporter of gun control, pro-choice and pro-gay rights. Her rabid supporters want people like me dead.

[Derek The Infamous]

That's fucking despicable.

[Benjamin]

I see that all of his videos have been disabled to comment on.

Something has to change in terms of gun possession. How the fuck did this mental guy get a gun? And I second what Derek said^^

[Derek The Infamous]

Todd, you should add that guy on Facebook and say. "Hi! My name is Todd. I am a liberal, believe in a woman's right to choose, think gay rights are acceptable and supported Obama's healthcare plan. I also think people who hold their gun more then their own penis are idiots. Want to be friends? :D"

[Benjamin]

Todd, you should add that guy on Facebook and say. "Hi! My name is Todd. I am a liberal, believe in a woman's right to choose, think gay rights are acceptable and supported Obama's healthcare plan. I also think people who hold their gun more then their own penis are idiots. Want to be friends? :D"

Don't forget to give him your address and where you work and where you like to hang out. :awesome:

[F-ck Casey]

http://f.cl.ly/items/2H103i3i231m000d3u0q/original.png

I hope Sarah Palin is proud of herself. She created this.

I'm a liberal, a Jew, a supporter of health care reform, an enemy of the NRA and supporter of gun control, pro-choice and pro-gay rights. Her rabid supporters want people like me dead.

And you hate them for all of the reverse reasons. They're conservatitve, Christians, anti-Obamacare, pro-NRA and anti-gun control, pro-life, and anti-homosexual. You want these people dead too. Or just Sarah Palin. One way or another.

You can't hate them for hating you because of your ideals, and then turn around and hate them for their ideals (however wrong they might be). You're no better than the rest of her supporters, minus the fact that you won't go out and shoot Palin (just yet).

Like I said earlier, I'm just SURE her agenda was to get someone shot in the face. I'm almost positive. There is a time where your hate for a particular politician has to be pushed aside and the blame has to go on those actually responsible for the action, not the one you think caused it because of some stupid propaganda piece.

[Vriska]

You want these people dead too. Or just Sarah Palin. One way or another.

WOW. just WOW.

Oversimplification and Stereotypical CITY! You think you're some sort of armchair psychologist? There are many people who do want to treat others as they would want people to treat them. Some nutjobs can cope with the cognitive dissonance of being an absolute hypocrite, but a lot of people can't resolve that, or pride themselves on not stooping to their enemy's behavior.

[Dean]

And you hate them for all of the reverse reasons. They're conservatitve, Christians, anti-Obamacare, pro-NRA and anti-gun control, pro-life, and anti-homosexual. You want these people dead too. Or just Sarah Palin. One way or another.

You can't hate them for hating you because of your ideals, and then turn around and hate them for their ideals (however wrong they might be). You're no better than the rest of her supporters, minus the fact that you won't go out and shoot Palin (just yet).
Pure drivel.

[Todd]

I never said I wanted anybody dead. Don't put words in my mouth.

[travz21]

When is some change going to happen? The US is turning into a steaming pile. The system needs to disappear. Let's take some notes from China and Canada.

[Derek The Infamous]

I'm going to stay out of this thread and refrain from commenting before I say something I regret. You are out of line Casey. Not only are you putting words in everybody's mouth, but you're also totally out of line.

[.Amanda.]

And you hate them for all of the reverse reasons. They're conservatitve, Christians, anti-Obamacare, pro-NRA and anti-gun control, pro-life, and anti-homosexual. You want these people dead too. Or just Sarah Palin. One way or another.

You can't hate them for hating you because of your ideals, and then turn around and hate them for their ideals (however wrong they might be). You're no better than the rest of her supporters, minus the fact that you won't go out and shoot Palin (just yet).

Like I said earlier, I'm just SURE her agenda was to get someone shot in the face. I'm almost positive. There is a time where your hate for a particular politician has to be pushed aside and the blame has to go on those actually responsible for the action, not the one you think caused it because of some stupid propaganda piece.

/thread

There's no reason for me to post here because Casey's just been saying everything I've wanted to anyway.

[Dean]

I would not kill someone or seriously wish death on them purely because I disagree with them, and I'd like to think a majority of people would say the same. If you would, cool. Don't try to bring other people down to your level though. There's a difference between having strong convictions and this, assuming this is politically motivated.

[Derek The Infamous]

Exactly. Sorry Amanda/Casey but I don't agree with either of you. I've never wished anybody dead, and I don't think I'm going to start now, even with the creep Todd posted a pic of above.

To assume we want somebody dead just because your outrageously off-base opinions suggest so is asinine. Sorry. Its wrong and entirely incorrect.

[Louis]

No one deserves to die. I don't care what they believe in.

[Vriska]

and now it's time for tragically sad irony
http://studentactivism.net/2011/01/08/gabrielle-giffords/

regardless of whether or not it was motivated politically (the nutjob's youtube channel certainly is, he has some influence from politics, i think i will take back what i said earlier about influences). Using rhetoric like "Don't retreat, RELOAD" had killed people in the past and this is not where the country needs to be.

People identified problems with Palin last September. She has had plenty of time to remove these pieces of propaganda.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/26/elizabeth-hasselbeck-sara_n_514561.html
http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2010/09/palinpac-site-puts-cross-hairs-on-dems.html

These people knew that what was going on was wrong. They know what sorts of things the rhetoric can lead to.

And even if this case isn't Palin's fault, maybe she can take a lesson from this before anyone else has to die from some mentally ill person who would take rhetoric as literal truth. And it only takes one unstable person to do what her imagery suggests to do. These are supposed to be the leaders of our nation. They are supposed to think of the consequences of their actions. They are supposed to consider the worst case scenario of their actions. Palin didn't. It is evident, even if this is not her fault, that Sarah Palin is a fucking idiot. There is no excuse for this behavior for someone with this much responsibility.

Maybe the silver lining is that this sort of dirty politics will die down and bit. But then again maybe i'm being a little too hopeful. But now is a good time to denounce behavior like this.



I would not kill someone or seriously wish death on them purely because I disagree with them, and I'd like to think a majority of people would say the same. If you would, cool. Don't try to bring other people down to your level though. There's a difference between having strong convictions and this, assuming this is politically motivated.

QFT. The extreme polarization of the USA is a more recent development. Talk like that implies we've always been in an eternal, bloody civil war. Really, the only people i truly hate are people who utilize violence. The thought of me killing someone because of their violence makes no sense to me. I don't function like Neanderthals do. I don't even support the death penalty.

[esaul17]

Outside of Casey being completely off point by insisting disagreeing with someone's ideals is the same as wanting to kill them, the pure moral relativism inherent in his post I find disgusting. People who hate gays, for instance, are just wrong. It is not a justifiable belief, and it hurts people severely who do not deserve it. It is ridiculous to say, "You hate homophobes, and homophobes hate you" as if they are in any way equatable.

[Gloomy Mushroom]

Rest in peace. My condolences go out to her family, and the families of the others who died.

Also I hate to make this political: http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/comment/7/2011/01/c66b788987c541b760ee97e6ce14835c/340x.jpg

Look who's on the list, and look at the ad. Gun targets, and a tagline telling people to take a stand. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a crazy Palin supporter. As it stands, that ad is reprehensible and morally irresponsible.

I don't understand this picture. Was this about the health care reform that Obama tried to get the lower house (or whatever house of representatives you Americans have, and yes I don't understand how laws are passed in the US) to pass but something along the lines of the insurance companies would lose big time on cashing in people's ill health? By my understanding of this thread, Sarah Palin (I have heard of her but not her policies) was against the health reform to provide a better medicare system to America?

If it was a mental health issue of the shooter, I say and I assume, not much funding has gone into mental health funding for Americans on the "benefits scheme" (if you have one?). By any means, anyone can correct me anytime on my little knowledge of the American health system, but what I know of it, is that the insurance companies run everything and there's no such thing as free health care (unlike here) by assumption to what I've been told by friends in the US and their experiences.

But nonetheless, any innocent death is always tragic and may their family find solitude and justice when this guy is caught.

Edit. And as for wanting this guy dead, sorry, that's like saying I believe in capital punishment, I don't believe in it. Revenge never solved anything and if you want an eye for an eye, you would end up blind, as my father once put it.

[Dean]

Outside of Casey being completely off point by insisting disagreeing with someone's ideals is the same as wanting to kill them, the pure moral relativism inherent in his post I find disgusting. People who hate gays, for instance, are just wrong. It is not a justifiable belief, and it hurts people severely who do not deserve it. It is ridiculous to say, "You hate homophobes, and homophobes hate you" as if they are in any way equatable.
That too.

[Rocky]

Outside of Casey being completely off point by insisting disagreeing with someone's ideals is the same as wanting to kill them, the pure moral relativism inherent in his post I find disgusting. People who hate gays, for instance, are just wrong. It is not a justifiable belief, and it hurts people severely who do not deserve it. It is ridiculous to say, "You hate homophobes, and homophobes hate you" as if they are in any way equatable.
I'm pretty sure that isn't what Casey meant. Even though his post has rubbed almost everybody the wrong way, there are plenty of people are like that...I guess they aren't on this board though lol...so he really jumped the gun.

And to be really honest...it's easy to justify anything. There are plenty of religious folks that hate gays because of the belief that God hates homosexuals. Now, if you worship any god(s) that take that stance, you absolutely would also!

[esaul17]

Yes, if you accept a false premise you reach a false conclusion. That has nothing to do with real justification.

[Dean]

I'm pretty sure that isn't what Casey meant. Even though his post has rubbed almost everybody the wrong way, there are plenty of people are like that...I guess they aren't on this board though lol...so he really jumped the gun.
The impression I get is that he essentially said that Todd and, based on what I'm assuming are his grounds for saying that about Todd, anyone else who expresses strong convictions is likely to kill someone just for disagreeing. That is so off the mark it boggles my mind.

[Xero21]

Again, you guys keep talking about political motivations, I said earlier this guy has a mental disorder. I am 99.9% sure that what political party the congresswoman associates with was the last thing on the shooter's mind.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/08/arizona.shooting/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

"All I can tell you is there's reason to believe this individual may have a mental issue," Dupnik said.

Anyone who studies neuropsychology could look at the guy's YouTube videos and tell right away the guy has an illness. He's suffering from grandiose delusions that he can control people's minds (he has a "how to: mind control video, and he refers to the people watching his videos as the "listener", he thinks he's controlling people.) and that he's going to add his own symbols to the alphabet. His sentences also tend to ramble on and not be completely coherent.

These are both clear signs of some sort of manic disorder, whether it's severe bi-polar disorder or manic depression. He also says he's a "conscious dreamer" or whatever that means. Maybe he's hallucinating and he's an untreated schizophrenic?

The point here, is that Sarah Palin, conservatives, democrats, elections, all of that stuff is the least of our worries in regards to what happened today. No use in arguing about it.

[Benjamin]

Again, you guys keep talking about political motivations, I said earlier this guy has a mental disorder. I am 99.9% sure that what political party the congresswoman associates with was the last thing on the shooter's mind.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/08/arizona.shooting/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

"All I can tell you is there's reason to believe this individual may have a mental issue," Dupnik said.

Anyone who studies neuropsychology could look at the guy's YouTube videos and tell right away the guy has an illness. He's suffering from grandiose delusions that he can control people's minds (he has a "how to: mind control video, and he refers to the people watching his videos as the "listener", he thinks he's controlling people.) and that he's going to add his own symbols to the alphabet. His sentences also tend to ramble on and not be completely coherent.

These are both clear signs of some sort of manic disorder, whether it's severe bi-polar disorder or manic depression. He also says he's a "conscious dreamer" or whatever that means. Maybe he's hallucinating and he's an untreated schizophrenic?

The point here, is that Sarah Palin, conservatives, democrats, elections, all of that stuff is the least of our worries in regards to what happened today. No use in arguing about it.

In my opinion, the mental part was what made him go through with actually attempting to KILL somebody. But mental people can still have political views. He didn't just randomly go into a grocery store and shoot people. He knew that the congresswomen would be there and went in there with intentions to kill her.

For me, the unknown is why the hell he shot 12 other people including a little boy. I'm no expert, but he may have decided that anyone in the same area as her had the same political views/supported her since she announced that she was going to be there.

[Derek The Infamous]

There have been reports that he was calling out the names of the people he was targeting. Police haven't confirmed this but this is reported.

[Dean]

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_91db5db4-1b74-11e0-ba23-001cc4c002e0.html

He lists among his favorite books "Mein Kampf" and "The Communist Manifesto".
Oh boy. People are going to have a field day with that.

[Blackee Dammet]

I'm pro gay and gun who wants to give everyone free healthcare for everything but abortions. Who do I wanna kill?

I'm getting antsy and need an answer.

[Gloomy Mushroom]

I'm pro gay and gun who wants to give everyone free healthcare for everything but abortions. Who do I wanna kill?

I'm getting antsy and need an answer.

Abortion is very different from healthcare. Having known a guy being refused admittance to a hospital after suffering a mild heart attack in the US, because he didn't have insurance. That's healthcare. Not a girl got accidentally pregnant and wants an abortion as a form of contraceptive, that is not healthcare.

And coming from a country where we aren't refused treatment regardless of insurance coverage or not, whatever politician encourages such a notion of no free health care disgusts me.

edit. I was thinking, isn't it ironic that a Sarah Palin supporter has an illness she refuses to fund? If only she had looked the other way, the man with the mental illness would have gotten help if she didn't put her hand up and objected to Obama's (?) proposal.

[esaul17]

Abortions are still part of healthcare. A different type, sure, but it is a medical procedure which drastically alters the physical and psychological outcome for the patient.

[Xero21]

In my opinion, the mental part was what made him go through with actually attempting to KILL somebody. But mental people can still have political views.

Exactly. So why are the political views relevant? People are allowed to have opinions, but this man clearly has an illness.

And the man is probably not a republican or a democrat. His videos seemed to suggest anti-government/anarchy if anything.

[Vriska]

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_91db5db4-1b74-11e0-ba23-001cc4c002e0.html

Oh boy. People are going to have a field day with that.

but also Animal Farm. It just sounds like a bunch of books he read and found interesting, not necessarily ones that influenced his viewpoint.

I saw news coments under these articles and found some idioic argument between people trying to pideonhole him as a left wing , and others as a right wing, using those books and "omg he looks liburrl" as justification :/ Oftentimes nutjobs aren't in either category, and there's more than two kinds of categories (Totalitarianism is neither left or right). He even has shades of libertarianism.

So basically, no field day, OR I SHUSH YOU.

[Jen]

I read something earlier, not sure of the link now, but one of the victims was a nine year old little girl, she was born on September 11, 2001. How sad :(

[Andrea]

I read something earlier, not sure of the link now, but one of the victims was a nine year old little girl, she was born on September 11, 2001. How sad :(

Her name was Christina-Taylor Green, daughter of John Green, who is a scout for the L.A. Dodgers, and granddaughter of Dallas Green, Phillies baseball legend.

Phillies baseball is my life so I was stunned to hear of who the little girl was. Absolutely devastating.

Here's an article about Christina-Taylor Green:

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/article_28c8e686-1ca6-5b3e-ab85-965bd22c68c0.html

That article got to me so hard. I feel sick. May she rest in peace. <3

[Dean]

but also Animal Farm. It just sounds like a bunch of books he read and found interesting, not necessarily ones that influenced his viewpoint.

I saw news coments under these articles and found some idioic argument between people trying to pideonhole him as a left wing , and others as a right wing, using those books and "omg he looks liburrl" as justification :/ Oftentimes nutjobs aren't in either category, and there's more than two kinds of categories (Totalitarianism is neither left or right). He even has shades of libertarianism.

So basically, no field day, OR I SHUSH YOU.
That's it. You just know people are going to try to paint him as a communist or a neo-nazi or something, even though the reality probably isn't as simple as that. That and, as you said, just because someone's read those books it doesn't necessarily mean that they agreed with them anyway.

[Derek The Infamous]

Honestly this is looking more like a hate crime/politically motivated crime by the hour. Yes you guys call him mentally ill, but read this:


Jared Lee Loughner, the alleged shooter of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and others on Saturday, may have ties to anti-Semitic, anti-immigration hate group American Renaissance, according to a leaked memo from the Department of Homeland Security.

Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/09/jared-loughner-youtube-videos-_n_806370.html

[F-ck Casey]

WOW. just WOW.

Oversimplification and Stereotypical CITY! You think you're some sort of armchair psychologist? There are many people who do want to treat others as they would want people to treat them. Some nutjobs can cope with the cognitive dissonance of being an absolute hypocrite, but a lot of people can't resolve that, or pride themselves on not stooping to their enemy's behavior.

I could ask you the same question: do you fancy yourself some sort of armchair psychologist?


Pure drivel.

Not really, no. Just because my opinion is an unpopular opinion, doesn't make it wrong.


I never said I wanted anybody dead. Don't put words in my mouth.

I'm pretty sure I've seen you wish death on Sarah Palin. Probably the Westboro Church as well. But, I'm sorry, I don't feel like going through the entire history of this board dating back to 2008 just to look for definitive proof that you've said it. The way they look at life might not resonate with you, but to them, it's all they know and it makes sense. Who are you to tell them any different? On the flipside, who are they to tell you any different? Being homosexual, pro/anti guns, etc. might be okay to one side of the coin, but on the other it's completely wrong and offensive. Who cares?

We've all wished death upon someone.. what separates us from people like this guy, is that we don't act on it because we aren't mentally unstable. Well, some of us aren't anyway. I'm not trying to "flame" you or anything, but it's getting kind of old, to blame everything and anything on Sarah Palin or any politician you don't like.

If Obama had a propaganda poster like the one Derek posted on the first page of this thread, and someone killed a representative on that list, would you blame Obama? Stop before you answer that, because I know immediately you'll say, "YES! Of course." But I don't think anyone would. They'd rip the gunman's life and mental stability to shreds and then shit and piss on his grave before blaming Obama. Come on, guys. Don't let your personal gripes with a politician's stance on things/idiocy to blind yourself on how you're seeing this news story.

It's no one's fault but the gunman. That's it. End of story.


I'm going to stay out of this thread and refrain from commenting before I say something I regret. You are out of line Casey. Not only are you putting words in everybody's mouth, but you're also totally out of line.

I mean no disrespect when I ask you, how am I out of line? Because I flipped what Todd said on it's back, and called him out for hating "those" people for the exact opposite reasons? I clearly said that they're wrong to think that way (in my mind) about certain issues (anti-homosexual being the largest), but it's true. We all hate them because they don't think the way we do. They hate "us" because we don't think the way they do. And I'm sure Todd, and many others, including myself probably, have wished death on Sarah Palin or any number of politicians/anyone else in the world. Like I said earlier, not a big deal, because we don't act on it. Let's not get all high and mighty and say that we aren't allowed to wish death on someone, even if we're exaggerating our hatred of someone, because it's morally wrong. Because we've all done it, whether you want to admit it or not.

Obviously I'm speaking some sort of truth, since at least Amanda agreed with me, and Rocky kind of understands what I'm trying to say.

I know it may seem like I'm "fighting the power" or whatever for no particular reason, but my reasons are justified within myself. I can take you disagreeing with me, but when you say I'm out of line and then don't even bother to explain why (in your mind) and let me counter-act with an explanation of my own, that's when I get a little offended. I don't expect one now (I expect a warning, really, because... well, i don't really know. because i'm mean and rawr i'm standing up for Palin, bad boy!)

[Derek The Infamous]

I called you out of line because you insinuated/assumed that just because certain racists want people like Todd dead, that Todd would secretly want them dead as well. That's idiotic, and a really crazy statement to make.

Case in point: I disagree with a lot of your points of view at times and even have been offended by some of the things you've done in the past. Does that mean that I'd want you dead or wish someone would shoot you in the head like what happened with Giffords? No. So you were wrong, and you were welcome to counteract with your explanation. We don't think you're "fighting the power", nor will we warn you for sticking up for Palin. We will however, confront you when you make a statement that is wrong, out of line and categorically false...and that's what we did here.

People don't wish tragedies like this on anyone. Not even on those who wish others dead.

Oh and FYI: Just because someone agrees with you doesn't make it truth. If that was the case then Glenn Beck is the most honest journalist in today's media. And we all know that's a load of bull.

[F-ck Casey]

With all due respect, you're welcome to think that what I say is wrong, but I don't believe it is. I'm not even being a smart ass when I say that. I guess I have the most unpopular opinions on things most of the time, and that's okay, I suppose. As long as I'm not totally alone in my opinions, then I'd really feel like an outcast

[Derek The Infamous]

And I respect that. Obviously you feel what you say is truth, otherwise you wouldn't defend it so vigorously. However; just like with you, we are entitled to be offended by your insinuations and call you out on them even if you feel them to be the truth. You said something that felt like an attack on Todd, and he and others responded to it. And that's the long and short of it.

[F-ck Casey]

Hey, as long as everyone knows I'm not trying to destroy their character or anything, I'm good. I came into this thread yesterday expecting it to be full of well wishes towards the families and others, but it turned into a 4 page debate about politics, which should be the last thing on anyone's mind right when something like this happens.

I think I'm done with this thread, I've said all I've wanted to. This very same debate is going on at like, 4 other forums I'm at and it's most going in the way this one has. I think I might take a much needed break from the internet to avoid my face blowing up in anger. :P

[Louis]

I wouldn't be surprised if this event were politically motivated, but from what it appears, this guy in general was anti-government. However, I can't say I'm not concerned when there was that image of "targeted" representatives who voted for Healthcare Reform or whatever. Whether or not that was an influence, I do not know, and won't go as far to say whether or not it was. It does concern me, though, and presents itself as a potential factor in the shootings.

[Todd]

With all due respect, you're welcome to think that what I say is wrong, but I don't believe it is. I'm not even being a smart ass when I say that. I guess I have the most unpopular opinions on things most of the time, and that's okay, I suppose. As long as I'm not totally alone in my opinions, then I'd really feel like an outcast

Well, I can tell you that Derek is right. I should know my own beliefs better than anyone else, and I do not want to see those people dead. If they were killed, it would only make them a martyr for their cause. The best thing to do with assholes like that is just ignore them. Don't give them the attention that they desire. That's what I want to see happen to them. I want to see them ignored by mainstream America and made irrelevant.

[Derek The Infamous]

Going back to the topic on hand, she's still hanging on and able to communicate. The bullet grazed the left side of her brain instead of going right through which would've surely been fatal:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/09/arizona-shooting-news_n_806397.html

She got lucky, and by lucky I mean....a few inches over and she would've been dead likely immediately.

[Louis]

Going back to the topic on hand, she's still hanging on and able to communicate. The bullet grazed the left side of her brain instead of going right through which would've surely been fatal:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/09/arizona-shooting-news_n_806397.html

She got lucky, and by lucky I mean....a few inches over and she would've been dead likely immediately.

Well, if not dead, she would have been in at least a vegetative state. And actually, they're not even sure at this point how it will be, but considering she's responsive (not vocally, though), she can hopefully make as much of a full recovery as possible.

At this point they're keeping here in an induced coma. They removed part of her skull so that the brain has room to swell up. I'm no medical expert but I'm sure whatever the doctors are doing at this point is working to keep her alive and help her recover. That's what's important.

[Rocky]

Yes, if you accept a false premise you reach a false conclusion. That has nothing to do with real justification.

You can't prove or disprove anything God-related, or prove that something is justified/unjustified. Those are personal beliefs and not facts

[esaul17]

You can't prove or disprove anything God-related, or prove that something is justified/unjustified. Those are personal beliefs and not facts

It is a fact whether he exists or not. Something doesn't have to be provable for it to not be a matter of opinion. Reality doesn't stop at our epistemological limits.

[Dean]

You can't prove or disprove anything God-related, or prove that something is justified/unjustified. Those are personal beliefs and not facts
Even when you can't say something is 100% objective, and even if you are religious, you can probably think your reasoning through more than "just because God says so".

[Rocky]

It is a fact whether he exists or not. Something doesn't have to be provable for it to not be a matter of opinion. Reality doesn't stop at our epistemological limits.

No, it is a fact that God exists TO YOU (I assume since you said "he") no matter how much you cannot really prove that there is a god. You would have your "justifiable" reasons to believe in God. Atheist would say that they have "justifiable" reasons to NOT believe you if you told them that God exists. It's really not black and white. It's very personal. If Jesus Christ were punched in the face, he would not retaliate no matter how many people would say that it would be justifiable. If one were a follower of Christ, there's a great possibility that retaliation would be unjustifiable to them. What reality is happens to differ from person to person. Knowing that, anyone can call anything logical, good, bad, or whatever.

[Vriska]

Going back to the topic on hand, she's still hanging on and able to communicate. The bullet grazed the left side of her brain instead of going right through which would've surely been fatal:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/09/arizona-shooting-news_n_806397.html

She got lucky, and by lucky I mean....a few inches over and she would've been dead likely immediately.

Thank you for the update. And holy hell that is amazing that she is alive.


No, it is a fact that God exists TO YOU (I assume since you said "he") no matter how much you cannot really prove that there is a god. You would have your "justifiable" reasons to believe in God. Atheist would say that they have "justifiable" reasons to NOT believe you if you told them that God exists. It's really not black and white. It's very personal. If Jesus Christ were punched in the face, he would not retaliate no matter how many people would say that it would be justifiable. If one were a follower of Christ, there's a great possibility that retaliation would be unjustifiable to them. What reality is happens to differ from person to person. Knowing that, anyone can call anything logical, good, bad, or whatever.

This is SO off topic. But you are misunderstanding what he is saying

http://www.jaredrbyer.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/800px-classical-definition-of-knosvg.png

You can have beliefs that differ between people, and each can justify them as appropriately. But hee is talking about truths. God either does or does not exist. We all live in the same universe. If god exists in the universe for one person, He exists for all people in the same universe, regardless of what they believe. So you are talking about apples. He is talking about oranges. So lets just save this for a different discussion then.

(otherwise, i'd go farther, but im just gonna leave it at "you're wrong").

[Gloomy Mushroom]

You can't prove or disprove anything God-related, or prove that something is justified/unjustified. Those are personal beliefs and not facts


It is a fact whether he exists or not. Something doesn't have to be provable for it to not be a matter of opinion. Reality doesn't stop at our epistemological limits.


No, it is a fact that God exists TO YOU (I assume since you said "he") no matter how much you cannot really prove that there is a god. You would have your "justifiable" reasons to believe in God. Atheist would say that they have "justifiable" reasons to NOT believe you if you told them that God exists. It's really not black and white. It's very personal. If Jesus Christ were punched in the face, he would not retaliate no matter how many people would say that it would be justifiable. If one were a follower of Christ, there's a great possibility that retaliation would be unjustifiable to them. What reality is happens to differ from person to person. Knowing that, anyone can call anything logical, good, bad, or whatever.

We do have a God thread.

Believe it or not, a majority of the politicians in the US are highly religious and believe He does exist therefore introducing laws like No Abortions and No Homosexual Marriages because God said otherwise to what other people might think. God exists in politics. That's all they care about and not what the rest of the population thinks of God.

And I'm with Kathy.

[Louis]

Since when did this become a conversation about God? Back on-topic, please. And play nice. Thank you.

[Gloomy Mushroom]

And what I was meant to say also, is that this news even made it to the ABC News last night and I do hope she does improve.

[Louis]

And what I was meant to say also, is that this news even made it to the ABC News last night and I do hope she does improve.

Even made it to ABC News? This was on CNN almost instantly. Why is it such a surprise?

[Todd]

Even made it to ABC News? This was on CNN almost instantly. Why is it such a surprise?

Australian Broadcasting Channel would be my guess. Not our ABC News.

[Gloomy Mushroom]

Even made it to ABC News? This was on CNN almost instantly. Why is it such a surprise?

Because our Reuters are slow bastards.

What Todd said.

[Derek The Infamous]

So it's all but proven this was politically motivated:

http://tvnz.co.nz/world-news/assassination-charge-arizona-shooter-planned-ahead-3995511

In his house they found notes with the words "I planned ahead" as well as a thank you note from Giffords for attending a similar event about two years ago. So not only was this pre-planned, but it was in the works for a long time. The problem is figuring out why he wanted her dead, which is something we might have to wait on...but this was definitely politically motivated.

Oh and this too: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/09/arizona-shooting-news_n_806397.html#127_suspect-aggravated-by-previous-meeting-with-giffords

[Dean]

http://twitter.com/#!/LauraDawnMoveOn/status/23850193094967297
http://obamalondon.blogspot.com/2011/01/inexplicable-edits-on-sarah-palins.html

Stay classy, Palin.

[Luke]

I think the real tragedy in this case is that a nine year-old girl was killed in the midst of it all. Political motive or not, this girl didn't deserve to die. No one did.

That said, it's worrying how much support that bitch Palin is getting. But that's niether here nor there in this discussion imo.

[Derek The Infamous]

I hate the fact a little girl died, that breaks my heart. So young, and so ambitious. It just aint right :(.

[Xero21]

So it's all but proven this was politically motivated:

http://tvnz.co.nz/world-news/assassination-charge-arizona-shooter-planned-ahead-3995511

In his house they found notes with the words "I planned ahead" as well as a thank you note from Giffords for attending a similar event about two years ago. So not only was this pre-planned, but it was in the works for a long time. The problem is figuring out why he wanted her dead, which is something we might have to wait on...but this was definitely politically motivated.

Oh and this too: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/09/arizona-shooting-news_n_806397.html#127_suspect-aggravated-by-previous-meeting-with-giffords

Derek, why are you intent on labeling this as politically motivated? The guy is mentally unstable. Any opinions he has on politics, or anything else for that matter, holds absolutely no weight as a motivating factor due to the fact that he is not in his right mind.

Quoted from the first article you posted: According to his classmates, his grip on reality seems to have come undone in the past year.

He was asked to leave his community college in Tucson and was asked by campus police not to return because of several outbursts until he received clearance from a mental health counsellor, but he never did that.

Instead, he went to a sporting goods store in November and got the 9mm Glock handgun that authorities say he used in the mass shooting yesterday.

[Derek The Infamous]

Because it seems people (not you, but others) want to give this guy an excuse by saying he was mentally unstable and incapable of having rational thought. It's like someone doing the insanity plea, when they're clearly not 100% insane. I'm sorry, I know I'm not the psychology major here, but planning something months if not years in advance, and knowing who your target is...to me shows he is capable of rational thought and is not as 'mentally unstable' as people are trying to label him. Sure he wasn't all right in the head, and of course his behavior was irratic, but there are signs and proof that this was in the works for a long time...and that Giffords was a target for a while. Perhaps I'm wrong, but would a completely mentally unstable person be able to plot something this thorough? Maybe I'm wrong, but I just have a problem with people instantly labeling people as mentally ill. I feel it's a scapegoat for that person's crime, even if that's obviously not your intent.

[Gloomy Mushroom]

So this article was brought up on the 7pm Project last night and what I find interesting is that they were talking about how it's sparked new controversy about the loose gun laws the States have.

[Derek The Infamous]

Yeah, if anything...forgetting about motivations/mental state, this (as tragic as it might be) may lead to better gun laws. It's sad it took this for it to happen, but as Keith Olbermann put it...there is no room for violence in our democracy.

[Mark]

Yeah, if anything...forgetting about motivations/mental state, this (as tragic as it might be) may lead to better gun laws. It's sad it took this for it to happen, but as Keith Olbermann put it...there is no room for violence in our democracy.

Doubtful. If that didn't happen after Columbine/Virginia Tech/other school shootings, it's not going to happen now, sadly.

[Gloomy Mushroom]

Apparently the guy's been refused bail and Obama has declared a minute of silence for the massacre.

[F-ck Casey]

Yeah, if anything...forgetting about motivations/mental state, this (as tragic as it might be) may lead to better gun laws. It's sad it took this for it to happen, but as Keith Olbermann put it...there is no room for violence in our democracy.

that's a pipe dream at best.

[Theazninvasion68]

Imo. As a psych major..

Having a mental illness can't and does not mean you cannot rationalize things, or have rational thought.

This person clearly had issues that lead up to this event. Murder doesn't mean you have a mental illness, though it might be without pretty damn good justification, but one who is mentally ill can murder.

Rational thoughts and mental illness aren't mutually exclusive. It doesn't mean they are sound rational thoughts to others, though, but they are capable of rational thoughts and rationalization.

Imo, I'd set aside his political motives, and just say he's just crazy.

[Xero21]

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/01/10/could-jared-loughner-escape-a-prison-sentence/?icid=maing%7Caim%7Cdl1%7Csec2_lnk2%7C35773

According to Dr. Park Dietz, a forensics psychiatrist, the shooting has nothing to do with a heated political debate and has everything to do with the distorted thinking that accompanies mental illness.

"The real issue here has to do with the fact that serious mental illness can transform any political or religious thought into a justification for murder, assassination, mass murder and genocide," Dietz, president of Park Dietz & Associates, told AOL News.

Mental illness does not necessarily make rational thought impossible, it changes the rationale. It distorts thinking. What's logical to this guy is clearly not logical to a healthy person.

[Derek The Infamous]

I really hope he doesn't escape a prison sentence.

[Gloomy Mushroom]

If he does escape a jail sentence, he'll probably go to a mental institution if he pleads mentally insane.

[Derek The Infamous]

She's now breathing on her own and has an "101% chance of survival". It's also now been made illegal to protest at a funeral in AZ, meaning those westboro baptist assholes will all get thrown in jail if they even try it:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/11/jared-loughner-family-statement_n_807703.html

[Mark]

Jon Stewart had some riveting things to say about this tragedy. Think of him not as a comedian, but as one of the last remaining articulate and intelligent people on television:

http://tv.gawker.com/5730178/watch-jon-stewarts-poignant-speech-on-the-arizona-shooting

[minuteforce]

She's now breathing on her own and has an "101% chance of survival". It's also now been made illegal to protest at a funeral in AZ, meaning those westboro baptist assholes will all get thrown in jail if they even try it:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/11/jared-loughner-family-statement_n_807703.html
All good news. :D

[Louis]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/13/arizona.shooting/index.html

She's made a lot of progress. She's opened her eyes, can respond to commands, move body parts...this is incredible.

[Dean]

The thing is, there being nuts like this out there is exactly why Palin and others should probably drop that sort of rhetoric. When they scaremonger they play their part in creating a climate where fear and paranoia on that level are going to seem more legitimate and, whether or not it's their intent, in light of that something along these lines is probably the next logical step for someone with the right kind of mental problems.

[travz21]

It's not anyone's fault but the murderer. But when you have such power and your words reach everyone in the country who's listening, you should still realize there are people out there who aren't stable and can take your words too literally. Why can't politicians just give us a resume and what they stand for? There would be no negativity for crazies to feed off of and stuff like this wouldn't happen.

We don't want you to bash your opponents to make yourself seem better. You all look foolish together.

[Dean]

I hate all the scaremongering and tribalism in politics, but it's probably never going to go away. Not in our lifetimes at least.