Death...

[Hawk]

Hopefully it is okay to post this, after all this is the serious thread.
Please, respect peoples opinions and religious views.

What are your views on death? Do you think there is an afterlife? Do you think everyones after death will be different?

[Andrea]

I grew up on strict religious beliefs and was taught that once you die, you go to Heaven. As I got older, I got wiser and strayed from all of that and now I believe that once you die, that's it. Nothing. No afterlife.

Unless people I've known that are dead give me some sort of sign from above, I'm sticking to my current opinion.

[Joe]

Hmm. I'm don't really have an opinion on it to be honest. Sure it crosses my mind sometimes, but I figure I'm not going to waste my time whilst I am alive, thinking about something I can't change and probably will never understand.

[Jesse]

I grew up on strict religious beliefs and was taught that once you die, you go to Heaven. As I got older, I got wiser and strayed from all of that and now I believe that once you die, that's it. Nothing. No afterlife.

This. I also got taught to be fearful of hell. Fright tatics, you know..

[Rahat]

I grew up with Islamic values but my family isn't all that religious when I think about it. I still do believe that there is an afterlife, and I believe everything I was taught according to Islam. I don't think not believing in an afterlife is fear of hell, some people just honestly don't believe there is anything beyond death.

[Louis]

I'm starting to believe that we are all born as somebody / something else after we die, that in each life we are a different being. I don't really have any sort of fundamental basis for that belief, only my own thoughts.

[OkamiSensei]

Hmm. I'm don't really have an opinion on it to be honest. Sure it crosses my mind sometimes, but I figure I'm not going to waste my time whilst I am alive, thinking about something I can't change and probably will never understand.
This.
My parents were never believers, but I was sent to a Christian school as a child. Eventually, I decided that it was silly, and that I was an atheist (and still am) so I pretty much believe that there's no afterlife. I mean, I don't think we'll know until we die and whatnot, but I'm trying to enjoy life as it is without having to worry about being perfect in order to achieve a perfect afterlife. Just my own belief, though. :)

[esaul17]

There is no evidence for afterlives, reincarnation, etc..

They are just myths with various levels of comfort (I think hell is profoundly UNCOMFORTABLE, especially when I am apparently going there because I disagree with you on the existence of God). I also dislike the idea that, under a worldview of Christianity, it logically follows that if you torture someone until they accept Jesus as their lord and saviour, it would actually be a good thing because no matter how much you made them suffer on earth, it is minuscule compared to the hell you saved them from.

Reincarnation tends to make very little sense as it can't really account for the fact that the population of the planet (and one would imagine, of the universe) is not static. Where did all the new souls come from when the population increases? Where do they go when it decreases? The fact that we even have to ask these questions seems to show that the whole prospect is pretty silly. Notably, if we have no reason to believe it is true, then we really have no reason to try to work out the details of it.

We can't 100% rule out the idea of an afterlife, but (like the toothfairy or santa claus) we have no reason at all to think it actually exists. Changes to the physical brain have notable changes on the personality of an individual, so it appears unlikely that any sort of a "soul" or anything else immaterial is necessary to speculate. I think the only reasonably conclusion right now is to admit we don't know 100%, but that there is no more reason to believe in any sort of life after death than there is to believe in the toothfairy.

Most else strikes me as a misguided form of wishful thinking- and not a harmless one.

EDIT: Also, I don't mean to call out Joe in particular, but I do think that when one says they don't find this issue important to think about, they on a deeper level clearly see no reason to believe in standard Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. mythology. Because, if you thought there was a decent chance that say, Christianity was true, you would think there is a decent chance that you would be going to hell to suffer for all eternity for not believing in it. I think when one says the issue is unimportant, they have discounted these hypotheses as if they were true, the issue would be about the most important thing you could tackle correctly in your entire life. It would decide the fate of your eternal soul.

[11:54]

I can see this turning into a 'This is what I believe in...' thread, which is fine, but anywho...

I was raised Catholic, and was baptized when I was a baby and all that hoopla. Like Andrea, as I got older I started believing in pretty much what I felt like believing in. With that said, I think once you die then that's it. Supernatural Activities (ghost/spirits) aren't 100% proven at all, so I think once you die you just...die. You don't go to heaven, you don't go to hell, nothing. Your body just decays like everything else on Earth does.

I respect people's opinions and I don't think this is really about religion or anything like that. I'm actually interested in reading what everyone has to say about what happens to us after you die. But when it comes down to it, none of us will know until you actually die.

[Hawk]

I respect people's opinions and I don't think this is really about religion or anything like that. I'm actually interested in reading what everyone has to say about what happens to us after you die. But when it comes down to it, none of us will know until you actually die.

I agree with you.

I friend of mine is an atheist and he thinks that the Bible (no offense, and none intended) is a way that is telling people to live their lives.

The odd thing is, I can't image not being here..... not being alive, not breathing.....not....anything....

[11:54]

I agree with you.

I friend of mine is an atheist and he thinks that the Bible (no offense, and none intended) is a way that is telling people to live their lives.

The odd thing is, I can't image not being here..... not being alive, not breathing.....not....anything....

I believe that too. I didn't like the whole idea of the Bible, but just because I don't like it doesn't mean I disrespect it or any of it's believers in any way. What grinds my gears is when people tell me I'll go to Hell for not following or believing in what they believe in, let alone anything at all. I just want to live my life to the fullest. As cliche' as that sounds, it's the truth. Why should I worry about how I'm going to die, or worry about how I should live? I should be able to do whatever I want and o what makes me happy without anyone jumping on my back.

Aye, it's really hard to talk about death and stuff without dragging everything else that comes along with it. Though, I think if we keep it healthy and respect one another, then this thread could live a while. No pun intended...

[Hawk]

Aye, it's really hard to talk about death and stuff without dragging everything else that comes along with it. Though, I think if we keep it healthy and respect one another, then this thread could live a while. No pun intended...

Yep. I think if we are all mature about this and respect everyones opinions this thread can last a while.

I also don't think that once you die you walk the Earth either.
I don't really know what happens....

[Theazninvasion68]

Since I'm sure we all know we have souls..

I believe that there is something. I'm not to sure what that is, and I do want to know oh so badly.

I know we all have souls too. A soul is a feature of a person. I read somewhere, that a souls is like.. "A sailor to a ship". Similarly, A soul is to a body. Thus, we all have souls. A body can be generated through...well, i'm sure you know how babies are made. A soul goes with every new person. Thus, a soul exists before we are born.

So if souls exist before life..
So if souls exists while we are alive..
So if a soul exists and continues to exists after we die..
I conclude that our souls go on. ("The spirit carries on")

But where do our souls go? I don't know. But it has to be something... That is precisely what I'm curious about.

Of course, this is my view of life/death.

[esaul17]

Since I'm sure we all know we have souls..

I believe that there is something. I'm not to sure what that is, and I do want to know oh so badly.

I know we all have souls too. A soul is a feature of a person. I read somewhere, that a souls is like.. "A sailor to a ship". Similarly, A soul is to a body. Thus, we all have souls. A body can be generated through...well, i'm sure you know how babies are made. A soul goes with every new person. Thus, a soul exists before we are born.

So if souls exist before life..
So if souls exists while we are alive..
So if a soul exists and continues to exists after we die..
I conclude that our souls go on. ("The spirit carries on")

But where do our souls go? I don't know. But it has to be something... That is precisely what I'm curious about.

I am sorry, but we do not all "know" we have souls, and nor should we. I gave an argument as to why in my past post, and additionally must note the burden of proof is on whoever claims we have souls.

There is no evidence for a soul existing before, during, or after life. We have no reason to believe in anything immaterial at all. Before speculating where our souls go, I think it important to show why we should believe we have souls in the first place. Otherwise, it is like arguing over the nature of vampires. May be fun, but has no bearing on reality (as vampires and souls aren't anything beyond fiction).

[Jesse]

I really just believe that once we're gone, we're gone. Which is why if I ever get into a situation where I'm a vegetable and there is no chance for recovery, for heavens sake, pull the plug. I don't believe in spirits or souls. At least not in any traditional sense. I don't think any thing passes/moves on. Basically what I think of as as soul is our consciousness and our subconscious. I believe that when we die our brains stop working and we lose consciousness and thus our soul dies when we die because without a conscious we basically can not be.

[esaul17]

I really just believe that once we're gone, we're gone. Which is why if I ever get into a situation where I'm a vegetable and there is no chance for recovery, for heavens sake, pull the plug. I don't believe in spirits or souls. At least not in any traditional sense. I don't think any thing passes/moves on. Basically what I think of as as soul is our consciousness and our subconscious. I believe that when we die our brains stop working and we lose consciousness and thus our soul dies when we die because without a conscious we basically can not be.

Philosopher of science Daniel Dennett has said that we must come to terms with the fact that "the mind is what the brain does". I would agree with this, and it seems like you use the idea of the soul in the same way. I stay away from using that terminology as people can be eager to misinterpret you and think you believe in things you don't (similar to Einstein being championed as a believer in a personal God when he was explicitly clear that he didn't) but I agree with your position.

[Agent O]

I really just believe that once we're gone, we're gone. Which is why if I ever get into a situation where I'm a vegetable and there is no chance for recovery, for heavens sake, pull the plug. I don't believe in spirits or souls. At least not in any traditional sense. I don't think any thing passes/moves on. Basically what I think of as as soul is our consciousness and our subconscious. I believe that when we die our brains stop working and we lose consciousness and thus our soul dies when we die because without a conscious we basically can not be.

Where do we come from then? This cycle of life and death that has been going on for ages now... how did it start, or more importantly why did it start? Just so that we can live up to 60 years on average and then go POOF?

When I think about these questions, I can't help but believe that there is SOMETHING in the afterlife. What it is.. I don't know. I believe in God (Allah) and I think we just weren't wired to wrap our heads around this issue of life/death. It's simply beyond our comprehension.

[Jesse]

Philosopher of science Daniel Dennett has said that we must come to terms with the fact that "the mind is what the brain does". I would agree with this, and it seems like you use the idea of the soul in the same way. I stay away from using that terminology as people can be eager to misinterpret you and think you believe in things you don't (similar to Einstein being championed as a believer in a personal God when he was explicitly clear that he didn't) but I agree with your position.

Yeah that pretty much sums up how I interpret it. Also I've read a bit about the Einstien thing (Dawkins goes into it a bit in one of his books) But really, I make it pretty clear when people genuinely want to know what I believe.

[esaul17]

Where do we come from then? This cycle of life and death that has been going on for ages now... how did it start, or more importantly why did it start? Just so that we can live up to 60 years on average and then go POOF?

When I think about these questions, I can't help but believe that there is SOMETHING in the afterlife. What it is.. I don't know. I believe in God (Allah) and I think we just weren't wired to wrap our heads around this issue of life/death. It's simply beyond our comprehension.

We don't know where we came from. Postulating God doesn't help any though. You can't just make up answers. Also, asking "why" is improperly framing the question- there is no reason to believe there is an overarching purpose in the universe. Lastly, if the issue is "beyond our comprehension" then you shouldn't believe in any religion as religions take the opposite approach by claiming that we DO know the mind of God, we DO know what He wants, we DO know what happens after you die, etc..

Not knowing something is not a valid reason to start filling in the blanks with whatever fairytale one sees fit. The null hypothesis is that nothing happens, and we have no evidence for anything happening. When you don't know, you can't reject the null.


Yeah that pretty much sums up how I interpret it. Also I've read a bit about the Einstien thing (Dawkins goes into it a bit in one of his books) But really, I make it pretty clear when people genuinely want to know what I believe.

I know what you mean. And we are just regular people so no one has any real interest in claiming us for their "side". I guess I just try to be cautious as I wouldn't want to be misinterpreted.

[Jesse]

Where do we come from then? This cycle of life and death that has been going on for ages now... how did it start, or more importantly why did it start? Just so that we can live up to 60 years on average and then go POOF?

When I think about these questions, I can't help but believe that there is SOMETHING in the afterlife. What it is.. I don't know. I believe in God (Allah) and I think we just weren't wired to wrap our heads around this issue of life/death. It's simply beyond our comprehension.

I pretty much agree with esaul17 here.

Without trying to be offensive.

I don't believe that just because we don't know an answer that we should automatically attribute it to X.
In this case God.

As for how we are here I take the evolution approach. As for why, I don't believe that why is any much different from how. Or that they should be mutually exclusive from one another. But if it's the meaning of life you're pondering about I believe that we make our own meanings. We do what makes us happy without hurting others and we set goals to try to achieve them and once we do we'll find an inner peace in ourselves.

[esaul17]

I pretty much agree with esaul17 here.

I don't believe that just because we don't know an answer that we could automatically attribute it to X.
In this case God.

As for how we are here I take the evolution approach. As for why, I don't believe that why is any much different from how. Or that they should be mutually exclusive from one another. But if it's the meaning of life you're pondering about I believe that we make our own meanings. We do what makes us happy without hurting others and we set goals to try to achieve them and once we do we'll find an inner peace in ourselves.

Yeah, going further, I would agree with Sartre's existentialism notion that, even if there was a God, He would have no more right to assign a purpose to you than your parents have (just because they "made" you). Whether or not God exists, we have to choose a purpose for ourselves in life.

[Jesse]

Yeah, going further, I would agree with Sartre's existentialism notion that, even if there was a God, He would have no more right to assign a purpose to you than your parents have (just because they "made" you). Whether or not God exists, we have to choose a purpose for ourselves in life.

I agree. I've actually been trying to find a few existentialist books to read... The Plague by Albert Camus is a really good novel in case you're ever interested. :lol:

[esaul17]

I agree. I've actually been trying to find a few existentialist books to read... The Plague by Albert Camus is a really good novel in case you're ever interested. :lol:

Haha, I took existentialism as part of a first year elective. I think it has some good ideas, but it seems to be a bit too pro-subjectivism/relativism. More notably, emotivism, the dominant ethical theory, which states that there is no real right or wrong, just how we feel about it (meaning we basically go "Ew!" when thinking of murder, and that is all that it means to think that murder is evil) bothers me quite a bit. That said, I do not know the details of it very well.

Also, I hardly ever actually read books. It's terrible I know, but I tend to skim a wiki on a position. I've gotten 80%+ in the 3 philosophy electives I've taken in university with hardly ever opening the texts. I didn't even buy my philosophy of physics book. I remember my Knowledge and Reality TA suggesting me additional books I should read and allowing me to do a little looser a final essay due to my "strong understanding of the course material" when I hadn't even read 90% of it :lol:!

[Theazninvasion68]

I am sorry, but we do not all "know" we have souls, and nor should we. I gave an argument as to why in my past post, and additionally must note the burden of proof is on whoever claims we have souls.

:lol: Just the activity of thinking and responding and living.. isn't that admitting an activity of a soul?

I think i used the word "know" improperly. Perhaps, we all admit of having a soul?

I would think so.

If there is no reason to believe anything immaterial, is it useful to ever use psychology? If there is no reason to believe anything immaterial, what's the point of having a branch of philosophy dedicated to the soul?

Sartre's existentialism is pretty true. :lol: Not gonna lie. I remember reading it, and thus, trying listen to people as they go about.. The more I think about it, the more I think Sartre is correct.

Existentialism, i think, is pretty much bottom-line Atheist, in my opinion. If there really is no God, then I guess anything goes. (Hence.. possbily leading to the feeling of subjectivism/relativism.)

His work "Existienialism is humanism" is really interesting, imo.

I'm just a starting college student. :lol: I'm still needing to educate myself more.

Anyone interested in Existenialism should read up on sartre's entire works. It's really quite interesting. :) I would also recommend Nietzsche. Nietzsche is most likely well enjoyed by people in politics. So if you're looking for a Political position.. I suggest reading up that guy, and applying it. :lol:

WHOA LOL.

Sorry to change subject thread.

Lets get back on track.

[Firefly]

Philosopher of science Daniel Dennett has said that we must come to terms with the fact that "the mind is what the brain does". I would agree with this, and it seems like you use the idea of the soul in the same way. I stay away from using that terminology as people can be eager to misinterpret you and think you believe in things you don't (similar to Einstein being championed as a believer in a personal God when he was explicitly clear that he didn't) but I agree with your position.

same here.
I think when a living being (not just humans, also animals, plants...) dies, that's the end of it's life.
Maybe I will feed some maggots or help plants to grow, but thats it. For me, that's the circle of life.
Someone dies and he/she/it HAS a reason, but doesn't feel it anymore and there is no 'soul' kind of thing.
I also don't believe in god or allah or someone like that, I'm atheist.
I don't think that religion is basically bad. Because it teaches people some moral basics. But I stopped believing in god (my parents aren't that much religious, but I grew up evangelic) when I discovered (in school, books,...) how many people suffer because of religion, like religious wars, forced marriage and millions of other things. What doesn't mean that I disrespect religious people, some of my friends are religious, too.

[Hawk]

I think we overlook life.
A lot of people think that our lives have meaning, why live for 80 years and then just die, whats the point?
Maybe there is no point to life?
If there is a point in life, why did the Dinosaurs just die? In the end, I think all living creatures will share the same fate, death.

[esaul17]

:lol: Just the activity of thinking and responding and living.. isn't that admitting an activity of a soul?

I think i used the word "know" improperly. Perhaps, we all admit of having a soul?

I would think so.

If there is no reason to believe anything immaterial, is it useful to ever use psychology? If there is no reason to believe anything immaterial, what's the point of having a branch of philosophy dedicated to the soul?

Sartre's existentialism is pretty true. :lol: Not gonna lie. I remember reading it, and thus, trying listen to people as they go about.. The more I think about it, the more I think Sartre is correct.

Existentialism, i think, is pretty much bottom-line Atheist, in my opinion. If there really is no God, then I guess anything goes. (Hence.. possbily leading to the feeling of subjectivism/relativism.)

His work "Existienialism is humanism" is really interesting, imo.

I'm just a starting college student. :lol: I'm still needing to educate myself more.

Anyone interested in Existenialism should read up on sartre's entire works. It's really quite interesting. :) I would also recommend Nietzsche. Nietzsche is most likely well enjoyed by people in politics. So if you're looking for a Political position.. I suggest reading up that guy, and applying it. :lol:

WHOA LOL.

Sorry to change subject thread.

Lets get back on track.

Psychology is not presupposing something immaterial. As I said above, the mind is what the brain does. Psychology is concerned with consciousness, but does not pre-suppose it is anything beyond the activities of the brain.

And we have a whole branch of philosophy dedicated to God- that isn't proof that God exists. Just because lots of people talk about something seriously doesn't make it real.

I think perhaps you are just defining the "soul" in a similar way to Jesse now? As everything you mentioned seems to be in line with the idea of the soul being our consciousness, and a product of our physical brain, and not in line with it being a supernatural eternal entity which will live on and be judged following our death.

Lastly, I must say that, as an atheist, atheism does not logically implicate emotivism. I think whether morality is objective or subjective is an issue unrelated to the existence of God. For example, the Kantian notion of the Categorical Imperative (paraphrased as: do not do an action unless you can will that that action became a universal law of nature) is notably atheistic (even if Kant claimed to be Christian, it is hard to take his word for it due to the repercussions at the time for admitting to being an atheist). Either way, an objective moral system is in the least possible without a God, so it is unfair to equate atheism with relativism.

[Jen]

In terms of people not having souls, what about out of body experiences when people are dying? Wouldn't that be considered as our soul or spirit leaving our body?

I have pretty strong religious beliefs, but I'm not going to bother defending them or anything, because I'm clearly in the minority, and I really don't need to explain myself or my thoughts on it anyway.

[esaul17]

In terms of people not having souls, what about out of body experiences when people are dying? Wouldn't that be considered as our soul or spirit leaving our body?

I have pretty strong religious beliefs, but I'm not going to bother defending them or anything, because I'm clearly in the minority, and I really don't need to explain myself or my thoughts on it anyway.

When the brain is shutting down, many hallucinations can happen. This has been shown pretty conclusively.

And it up to you whether you want to discuss and debate your beliefs or not. I personally think refusing to argue your position is missing out on the chance to be shown why you could be wrong though. I think it important to have one's beliefs challenged.

[Jen]

When the brain is shutting down, many hallucinations can happen. This has been shown pretty conclusively.

And it up to you whether you want to discuss and debate your beliefs or not. I personally think refusing to argue your position is missing out on the chance to be shown why you could be wrong though. I think it important to have one's beliefs challenged.

Nothing anyone can say would be enough to sway me, so whats the point? You have a right to believe whatever you want, just as I do. I'm not the person to be trying to convince you that I could be right.

[esaul17]

Nothing anyone can say would be enough to sway me, so whats the point? You have a right to believe whatever you want, just as I do. I'm not the person to be trying to convince you that I could be right.

Okay then. I find being open to evidence is vitally important.

[Jen]

Okay then. I find being open to evidence is vitally important.

I find it curious that you claim to be a atheist but yet I recall seeing pictures of you wearing a cross in the pyp thread.

[esaul17]

I find it curious that you claim to be a atheist but yet I recall seeing pictures of you wearing a cross in the pyp thread.

Wow, I like your memory, but you didn't look close enough.

I own two necklaces which contain a crucifix- but both are inverted. Furthermore, to differentiate them from a Peterine cross, one has a snake wrapped around it (while I'm not a satanist, I always liked the idea of pride before humility and eating the apple to gain knowledge of good and evil) and the other is a rosary and has Jesus hung inverted on it.

Both are meant as just symbolism for my anti-theistic beliefs. It also may tempt someone to confront me on my beliefs and, since I don't at all mind this form of conversation and debate, I do not mind putting what I believe out there and encouraging others to challenge it. Lastly, it also can act to filter out those who wouldn't be comfortable with my beliefs.

I really can promise you that I am indeed an atheist, and have been for as long as I can remember.

[Theazninvasion68]

Psychology is not presupposing something immaterial. As I said above, the mind is what the brain does. Psychology is concerned with consciousness, but does not pre-suppose it is anything beyond the activities of the brain.

And we have a whole branch of philosophy dedicated to God- that isn't proof that God exists. Just because lots of people talk about something seriously doesn't make it real.

I think perhaps you are just defining the "soul" in a similar way to Jesse now? As everything you mentioned seems to be in line with the idea of the soul being our consciousness, and a product of our physical brain, and not in line with it being a supernatural eternal entity which will live on and be judged following our death.

Lastly, I must say that, as an atheist, atheism does not logically implicate emotivism. I think whether morality is objective or subjective is an issue unrelated to the existence of God. For example, the Kantian notion of the Categorical Imperative (paraphrased as: do not do an action unless you can will that that action became a universal law of nature) is notably atheistic (even if Kant claimed to be Christian, it is hard to take his word for it due to the repercussions at the time for admitting to being an atheist). Either way, an objective moral system is in the least possible without a God, so it is unfair to equate atheism with relativism.

We cannot take the consciousness out of the body and say "that there is somebody's consciousness". We can point out that a brain is thinking, but we cannot
I'm probably not clear enough. Perhaps you should take up on what many philosophers discuss about a soul? I know I need to as well. As for not studying inmmaterial.. That is not always true. Why, then, would Theoretical physics be used ever? Sure, one might claim Math is related to Reality, but Theoretical Physics is all theory until a Practical Physicist (For the love of my life, I cannot remember what they're called :lol:) puts it into action. Similarly, Truth is something Immaterial, yet we study this. Truth only becomes real when it is related to reality. But Truth itself has no base, but we study Truth.

And indeed,There is a whole branch of philosophy dedicated to God. I'm looking forward to taking a class about it because I want to know more about what other philosophers had to say about it. Whether or not something is judged following our death is mysterious. But I do believe that there is a soul.

Lastly, I never said anything about Emotivism. I will say though, that an Atheist can logically implicate Existentialism. Everything about it lines up fairly well With Atheism. To deny Existentialism to Atheism... I would suppose you would require to change the definition of Atheism then? :P

[esaul17]

We cannot take the consciousness out of the body and say "that there is somebody's consciousness". We can point out that a brain is thinking, but we cannot
I'm probably not clear enough. Perhaps you should take up on what many philosophers discuss about a soul? I know I need to as well. As for not studying inmmaterial.. That is not always true. Why, then, would Theoretical physics be used ever? Sure, one might claim Math is related to Reality, but Theoretical Physics is all theory until a Practical Physicist (For the love of my life, I cannot remember what they're called :lol:) puts it into action. Similarly, Truth is something Immaterial, yet we study this. Truth only becomes real when it is related to reality. But Truth itself has no base, but we study Truth.

And indeed,There is a whole branch of philosophy dedicated to God. I'm looking forward to taking a class about it because I want to know more about what other philosophers had to say about it. Whether or not something is judged following our death is mysterious. But I do believe that there is a soul.

Lastly, I never said anything about Emotivism. I will say though, that an Atheist can logically implicate Existentialism. Everything about it lines up fairly well With Atheism. To deny Existentialism to Atheism... I would suppose you would require to change the definition of Atheism then? :P

Okay, a few points.

1. My mistake on emotivism! It appears to be more of a theory of the logical positivists than the existentialists. Existentialism tends to be morally subjective too though- and my point was that atheism does not have to be.

2. Atheism doesn't necessitate existentialism. I am not sure why you think it does.

3. There are things such as concepts and ideas, which you may call immaterial. But they do not exist BEYOND being an idea. There is a difference between the idea of spiderman, and spiderman himself. The former actually exists, the latter does not. This is the same with souls, God, etc.. Saying that the idea of these things exists is different from saying the things themselves exist. And these concepts can be useful and relate to reality- but the existence of these concepts does not in and of themselves say anything about reality.

4. Atheism solely means a lack of a belief in a God or Gods. I can deny existentialism all I want and still be an atheist.


What you have not done is provide any actual evidence as to why we should believe a soul exists. You speak a lot about how some things are immaterial, but the soul is a specific type of immaterial thing with specific properties, and you haven't given any argument as to why we should believe it. The burden of proof is on you to provide evidence for the soul's existence.

[Jen]

Wow, I like your memory, but you didn't look close enough.

I own two necklaces which contain a crucifix- but both are inverted. Furthermore, to differentiate them from a Peterine cross, one has a snake wrapped around it (while I'm not a satanist, I always liked the idea of pride before humility and eating the apple to gain knowledge of good and evil) and the other is a rosary and has Jesus hung inverted on it.

Both are meant as just symbolism for my anti-theistic beliefs. It also may tempt someone to confront me on my beliefs and, since I don't at all mind this form of conversation and debate, I do not mind putting what I believe out there and encouraging others to challenge it. Lastly, it also can act to filter out those who wouldn't be comfortable with my beliefs.

I really can promise you that I am indeed an atheist, and have been for as long as I can remember.

Ok, I can accept that, but the whole thing about eating the apple to gain knowledge of good and evil, and the fact that you believe it? That's a very Christian/Judicism based principle, about defying the word of God. I don't see how you can accept one idea and not the other. I also get the impression that while you are not a Satanist, you do believe that he does exist. How can there be an ultimate evil and not its counterpart?

[esaul17]

Ok, I can accept that, but the whole thing about eating the apple to gain knowledge of good and evil, and the fact that you believe it? That's a very Christian/Judicism based principle, about defying the word of God. I don't see how you can accept one idea and not the other. I also get the impression that while you are not a Satanist, you do believe that he does exist. How can there be an ultimate evil and not its counterpart?

No, no, no! The story is fictional. It is like I could like the hobbits in The Lord of the Rings because of their laid back lifestyle. It doesn't mean I have to think they are REAL.

I don't believe the story of the Garden of Eden actually happened (that is ludicrous) nor do I believe it is a divinely inspired parable. I think it is a man-made work of fiction. In that work of fiction, Satan seems to represent pride and seeking knowledge, whereas God represents servitude and dependence. I side more with Satan in this particular work of fiction. None of it is actually real though. Just a story.

I don't believe God or Satan exist.

[Jen]

No, no, no! The story is fictional. It is like I could like the hobbits in The Lord of the Rings because of their laid back lifestyle. It doesn't mean I have to think they are REAL.

I don't believe the story of the Garden of Eden actually happened (that is ludicrous) nor do I believe it is a divinely inspired parable. I think it is a man-made work of fiction. In that work of fiction, Satan seems to represent pride and seeking knowledge, whereas God represents servitude and dependence. I side more with Satan in this particular work of fiction. None of it is actually real though. Just a story.

I don't believe God or Satan exist.

I don't believe I mentioned anything about the Garden of Eden. The whole principle of eating the apple is a metaphor for the balance between having a pure life and a life tainted by sin.

[esaul17]

I don't believe I mentioned anything about the Garden of Eden. The whole principle of eating the apple is a metaphor for the balance between having a pure life and a life tainted by sin.

Well, the Garden of Eden is where the apple is eaten. It is somewhat hard to mention one and not the other.

The apple itself (and it isn't actually an apple in the Bible I know, just a fruit) was from the Tree of Knowledge. God did not want them to eat from the Tree of Knowledge because if they did, they would be like Gods and know of Good and Evil.

The fact that knowledge of Good and Evil is considered a sin in The Bible (and pretty much the worst sin too) is why I am saying I sided with Satan in that parable. I support seeking such knowledge, not remaining in ignorance. God called the former a sin, Satan encouraged it. Hence, siding with Satan.

It is not the difference between a "pure life" and a life "tainted by sin" as much as it is a difference between what the Bible seems to consider a pure life, and what I consider a pure life.

[Theazninvasion68]

Okay, a few points.

1. My mistake on emotivism! It appears to be more of a theory of the logical positivists than the existentialists. Existentialism tends to be morally subjective too though- and my point was that atheism does not have to be.

2. Atheism doesn't necessitate existentialism. I am not sure why you think it does.

3. There are things such as concepts and ideas, which you may call immaterial. But they do not exist BEYOND being an idea. There is a difference between the idea of spiderman, and spiderman himself. The former actually exists, the latter does not. This is the same with souls, God, etc.. Saying that the idea of these things exists is different from saying the things themselves exist. And these concepts can be useful and relate to reality- but the existence of these concepts does not in and of themselves say anything about reality.

4. Atheism solely means a lack of a belief in a God or Gods. I can deny existentialism all I want and still be an atheist.


What you have not done is provide any actual evidence as to why we should believe a soul exists. You speak a lot about how some things are immaterial, but the soul is a specific type of immaterial thing with specific properties, and you haven't given any argument as to why we should believe it. The burden of proof is on you to provide evidence for the soul's existence.

1) Existentialism does tend ot be morally subjective - because without any moral basis aside yourself.. it is thus, you to decide what is right and wrong. Am I correct on that?
2) Atheism does lead towards Existentialism, because if you deny it, it leads to an inconsistent life. For example: If there is no higher/external authority to lay down the laws, but it is then only you to provide it then.

3) :lol: Capito.

4) As I said, to deny would mean to be living an inconsistent life. Who is anyone to decide whether or not rape is bad? Or if Racism is wrong? Or that abuse is bad? If there is no God to lay at least a guideline, then it is up to you to provide a guideline.

While I accept your challenge for empirical evidence, I know I don't know enough to provide it. The best thing I know and can think of is.. The living within a person. When a person is living and doing this thing, it is his soul that is keeping his living going. It's sounds awkward, I know. His will to life and Survival is his soul within his mind. It is his essence of living.

It isn't Numerical, empirical evidence you so dearly desire, but it's the best I can give. :lol:

I'm sticking with my beliefs as well as you are sticking to your beliefs, Good sir. :)

[esaul17]

1) Refer to the Categorical Imperative by Immanuel Kant again. It is an objective moral theory, but never references a deity. It is fully possible to be an atheist and believe in objective morality. Moral objectivism or relativism and theism/atheism are separate discussions entirely.

2) Existentialism is not JUST "you choose your own purpose in life". It is a full philosophy which speaks of many different areas of life. Look it up on wiki to get a taste. But even on that point, you could be an atheist but think you derive your purpose from the state. You don't choose it yourself, you do what the government tells you, as is common in more communist states. Just because you deny God doesn't mean you can't turn to some other outside source for purpose. I mean, the government has no right to give you such a purpose, but according to existentialism, neither does God. The point is existentialism says you must choose your own purpose, regardless of what God (if He exists), the government, your parents, or anyone else tells you you should do. An atheist or a theist can reject this premise and seek an external source for their purpose. I disagree with that choice, but it is doable by atheists and theists alike.

3) Good :lol:

4) I must again refer you to Kant's system. It is an example of how objective morality is possible in an atheistic worldview. Yes, you would have to choose whether or not you wish to follow it, but a Christian has to choose whether or not they wish to follow the Bible as well. Just because it is possible to ignore the imperatives of an objective moral system doesn't mean the system itself isn't obective.



Lastly, you must be able to see that the naturalistic account I have given is fully capable of describing a person living, and wanting to do so. There is no need for an eternal supernatural soul, to have a person who has a will to live. The two are just entirely unrelated.

Why does having a will to live at all imply that life after death exists?

[Colonel Sanders]

I don't like to wear my heart on my hand nowadays but here we go for a post. My beliefs are almost 100% based on science and I firmly believe in finding the truth. If the truth lies in various beliefs, ideas, and values from cultures and religions than I must accept it. I like to believe certain things, I choose to not believe certain things, I am not niave, and don't believe everything I read or hear or see. There are conflicts with beliefs all over the planet, and a handful of individuals respect that others have their views, beliefs, disagreements, and we can co-exist and cooperate together. We are all entitled to our own preferences and from that we find what we want to believe from what we don't want. What I say below is not all fact, but mainly opinion and belief.

I believe, along with many others, that we are all connected on many levels. We learn early in our lives that all things are made up of forces of energy and energy can take many forms.


The law of conservation of mass or of matter, also known as the Lomonosov-Lavoisier law, states that the mass of substances in a closed system will remain constant, no matter what processes are acting inside the system. It is a different way of stating that though matter may change form, it can be neither created nor destroyed. The mass of the reactants must always equal the mass of the products. http://www.iscid.org/encyclopedia/Law_of_Conservation_of_Mass

There is a mind-body connection. The soul is the all encompassing system inside the personal boundary around the human body. The features of the soul are our character. When the body dies; so does the mind/consciousness and soul. What happens when you die? It is true that we are only going to be aware of what death is like when we experience it. Everything contained within the boundaries of our soul, or the energy that allowed us to exist, could disperse to join the rest of the energy that exists in the universe. It is the cycle of life and death that is partly responsible to the expansion of what is in our universe. We will come full circle and our energy will be transfered into another form.

We come to learn that death will one day come for everyone. The busdriver who helped meet your needs by giving you a lift to your destination, and the old woman who looked as frail as ever as she struggled to walk what appeared to be one step every 10 seconds. Everyone you know is going to die. Death is a fact of life that we must accept, respect, and not fear. The future is inherently uncertain and unknown, while we can plan and figure out probabilities and possibilities using our brain power, death is too an unknown. We must move into the unknown with courage 24/7.

And so we know we will all cease to exist in one weay or another, but as...cheesy as it sounds, we must live to reach durable fulfillment in what is our "snap of a finger" existence in the universe. If science can explain, one day, how we came to be or what was the most mysterious cause to the most obvious effect in the creation of our universe, then hopefully it can explain how we cease to be.

[Harlz]

I haven't got a clue what I believe.
Externally I'm a Christian... But that's a very lose definition for me...

[the enigma]

Um...there are far too many people to quote for it to be efficient, so I'm gonna just say what's on my mind.

There is no evidence that a higher power exists. You can show me various religious texts from all sorts of religions, and they will all just be words on paper. The only way we can no for certain if there is a higher power is by interacting with it somehow. Some people believe that they have interacted with a higher power, others believe that no one has. So be it.

Wiccans have it right. "Do as you will, as long as no harm comes to others." I've paraphrased this, so I'm sorry if a Wiccan happens to be reading this and I butchered the quote. Essentially, as long as one does not cause harm to others, they should/can live their lives as they see fit. I am not Wiccan, but I can support this.

I believe in immortality, or rather, life after death, in the form of a legacy. In religion you are taught to fear death (at least I was) because there you will face the consequences for your actions throughout your life. Too many people concentrate on doing the right thing so they can please their deity, rather than doing the right thing simply because it is the right thing. I've been told that atheists and agnostics, since they don't believe in a deity, must all be miscreants and terrible people in general, because they don't have the thought of almighty punishment hanging over their heads keeping them on the straight and narrow. But I am agnostic, and I live my life knowing that when I die, I will leave behind a legacy. Perhaps no one will know of this legacy, or perhaps the entire world will. Regardless, it is my duty to do what I can to leave a positive and lasting impression on the world.

This notion is something that anyone can stand behind, regardless of religious preference and dis/belief in an afterlife.

[kidOhri]

I wouldn't say I believe in one theory... but somehow I'm pretty sure there is "something".
Because my family isn't religious it's always interesting to talk about things like that. My mom once said this: everytime one is dying his/her "soul" or whatever you wanna call it goes to the person that's born in exactly that moment. I like that idea. even though it's hard for me to believe in any of the theories... for me it's like thinking about where the universe ends. it just drives me crazy^^

[Hawk]

I bring this thread up again because I have more to add to the discussion.
I was threading through THIS (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070525035207AAKdsDy) and they surprised me, and I'm honestly not sure what to think anymore. What do you guys think about that?

[travz21]

Hahaha. Those are hilarious to read. When you're on the brink of dying or already dead, your brain is going through tons of trauma, causing hallucinations and that "white light".

There is nothing after you die. You just no longer exist.

[Hawk]

There is nothing after you die. You just no longer exist.

I honestly cannot think of not existing...

[travz21]

I can't either. None of us know how to not exist or what it feels like. So we can't relate. Which is why people created heaven and hell. They are afraid of the unknown. They want to believe that there is something familiar once you leave this world. Early humanity's desire to know everything made them create things when there was no logical reasoning behind something they couldn't figure out. e.g., God, religion in general, the universe, evolution, etc.

[Hawk]

I can't either. None of us know how to not exist or what it feels like. So we can't relate. Which is why people created heaven and hell. They are afraid of the unknown. They want to believe that there is something familiar once you leave this world. Early humanity's desire to know everything made them create things when there was no logical reasoning behind something they couldn't figure out. e.g., God, religion in general, the universe, evolution, etc.

I want there to be a afterlife honestly, even though its hard to believe, as I've said before because I can't imagine not existing in anyway.

[SuperDude526]

Death: the only thing in life that scares the bejeezes out of me.

As you can imagine, no religious beliefs attached.

[[TDWP] Jacob]

I believe in God and in an afterlife. If I'm wrong. What would I care? I'm dead :lol:

[Benjamin]

What has me thinking about this is how we have no idea how life started. What happened BEFORE the "Big Bang"? Something had to start it....idk. I don't spend my life worrying about it.

[Jeff]

Jacob;1005119']I believe in God and in an afterlife. If I'm wrong. What would I care? I'm dead :lol:

This.

[Dean]

What has me thinking about this is how we have no idea how life started. What happened BEFORE the "Big Bang"? Something had to start it....idk. I don't spend my life worrying about it.
Science started it, obviously.

[Benjamin]

Science started it, obviously.

Haha of course.

[Polychromatic]

I could never believe in a magical afterlife.

[Hawk]

I want to be a ghost, then I scare people. :P

[Polychromatic]

I want to be a ghost, then I scare people. :P

Haha that would be creepy, i'm eating pizza and then the cheese slides off and flys across the room.

[Jeff]

Haha that would be creepy, i'm eating pizza and then the cheese slides off and flys across the room.

THE CHEESE LANDED ON ME DAMMIT! *wipes off burning molted cheese off of face* loljk

[travz21]

I guess a way to think about death is comparing it to pre-birth. Before we were born, we had no recollection of what was going on. We weren't in pain or joy. We weren't anything. The same will happen when we die. We will just no longer be.

It's much more interesting to think about the Big Bang and what happened before it.

[Hawk]

I guess a way to think about death is comparing it to pre-birth. Before we were born, we had no recollection of what was going on. We weren't in pain or joy. We weren't anything. The same will happen when we die. We will just no longer be.

It's much more interesting to think about the Big Bang and what happened before it.

Big. Fucking. Bang.

[MKH]

I switch back and forth between believing in an afterlife and simply not existing anymore. With the afterlife, I feel like it'd be all dream like...blurry and distant like you're hearing everything muffled. That'd suck forever, wouldn't it? So I end up back to not existing anymore where everything just goes black, yet somehow, you're aware there's nothing. Well that sucks, too. So back to afterlife and so on.

[travz21]

You'd have no brain. There'd be nothing to be aware of.

[Sarah]

After watching a few seasons of Supernatural, I see nothing but a few things when it comes to death.

1) Dealing with the Devil - To avoid having to die at all.
2) The Yellow Eyed Demon - Scary as fuck and probably would kill me if it was real.
3) Highway to Hell - Being played at my funeral.
4) Ghosts/some other whacked up lore - I swore after one episode I didn't want to be in the dark alone anymore.

But after dealing with death for 4 minutes, after child birth, I think I appreciate life so much better.

[RavingRaver]

I see no point in dwelling on a discussion about something I'll never know or understand until I'm dead....and even then, I probably won't know or understand it.

[Hawk]

The thing is, what happens if there is heaven and hell? Like, seriously.
The way Christians describe hell, scares the shit out of me.

[Arashi]

The thing is, what happens if there is heaven and hell? Like, seriously.
The way Christians describe hell, scares the shit out of me.

It'd be interesting that everyone has a different heaven or hell, according to what they believed in.

[Hawk]

It'd be interesting that everyone has a different heaven or hell, according to what they believed in.

I USED to think that you'd go into a state of mind and you would imagine this "heaven", then I found out your brain can't live after you die.

[Switchback]

Your soul is returned to you in the grave. You'll be made to sit up and answer three/four questions.

A believer will be approached by two Angels with white faces, like the sun.
A disbeliever will be approached by two Angels with dark faces.
The Angels will sit as far as the eye can see.

You're then asked the questions:
Who is your Lord?
What is your religion?
Who was the man sent amongst you (Prophet)?
What did you do?

If you answer correctly, your place in Paradise will be readied. As you wait, your grave will be widened and filled with light.
Then you'll be shown Hell, with the knowledge that you will not be going there.
Then, every morning and evening you'll be shown Paradise. In anticipation, you'll continually ask when will the Hour come?


If you answer incorrectly, you'll be struck on the head with iron with the force that could shatter a mountain. Hell will then be readied for you. Your grave will be constricted and floor of it will be set alight with some of the fire from hell.
A being (your evil deeds) will approach you and tell you that this is the place you have been promised.
You'll then be shown Paradise, so that you'll feel bitter remorse. Then you'll be shown Hell and know that's where you will be when the Hour comes. And you will constantly plead for the Hour not to be established.


That's what takes place in the grave until Resurrection.

[travz21]

Your soul is returned to you in the grave. You'll be made to sit up and answer three/four questions.

A believer will be approached by two Angels with white faces, like the sun.
A disbeliever will be approached by two Angels with dark faces.
The Angels will sit as far as the eye can see.

You're then asked the questions:
Who is your Lord?
What is your religion?
Who was the man sent amongst you (Prophet)?
What did you do?

If you answer correctly, your place in Paradise will be readied. As you wait, your grave will be widened and filled with light.
Then you'll be shown Hell, with the knowledge that you will not be going there.
Then, every morning and evening you'll be shown Paradise. In anticipation, you'll continually ask when will the Hour come?


If you answer incorrectly, you'll be struck on the head with iron with the force that could shatter a mountain. Hell will then be readied for you. Your grave will be constricted and floor of it will be set alight with some of the fire from hell.
A being (your evil deeds) will approach you and tell you that this is the place you have been promised.
You'll then be shown Paradise, so that you'll feel bitter remorse. Then you'll be shown Hell and know that's where you will be when the Hour comes. And you will constantly plead for the Hour not to be established.


That's what takes place in the grave until Resurrection.

Are you serious?



The thing is, what happens if there is heaven and hell? Like, seriously.
The way Christians describe hell, scares the shit out of me.

Christians scare the shit out of me. Like 99% of religious people do. I just don't understand how people can be that insecure that they have to follow something so illogical as a god that has never existed and will never exist. There's no difference between believing in God or believing in Zeus. Or believing in some mythical creature like a dragon that rules the universe. The fact that more people believe in God (which has equal proof of existence to the other options I gave; no proof), doesn't make it any more likely that it's real.

[Switchback]

Are you serious?


Yes.



Christians scare the shit out of me. Like 99% of religious people do. I just don't understand how people can be that insecure that they have to follow something so illogical as a god that has never existed and will never exist. There's no difference between believing in God or believing in Zeus. Or believing in some mythical creature like a dragon that rules the universe. The fact that more people believe in God (which has equal proof of existence to the other options I gave; no proof), doesn't make it any more likely that it's real.

So, you're saying from nothing to everything is more logical than a creator to everything?

[travz21]

We don't know if there was nothing before the big bang. It's very possible something has always existed in which our universe spawned from. But yes. Since a creator isn't logical at all, the former option is more logical.

[Switchback]

We don't know if there was nothing before the big bang. But yes. Since a creator isn't logical at all, the former option is more logical.

A creator isn't logical to you? Why so?

[Sarah]

You know what I saw when I was dead for four minutes? I was sitting in a field of wheat, cross legged, bright light above me, listening to my dad who was sitting on a chair reading me a fairytale book.

That intrigued me. To all the things I could've seen.

[Switchback]

You know what I saw when I was dead for four minutes? I was sitting in a field of wheat, cross legged, bright light above me, listening to my dad who was sitting on a chair reading me a fairytale book.

That intrigued me. To all the things I could've seen.

Is that a particular fond memory of yours?

[Sarah]

Is that a particular fond memory of yours?

No, but it's not something I would forget either. Dying after childbirth doesn't really sit well with me given the technology we have, but the vision I had, has always been there in the back of mind. I remember it because I woke up, and I freaked out completely only to be told a few days later that I had actually died for a four minutes.

[Switchback]

No, but it's not something I would forget either. Dying after childbirth doesn't really sit well with me given the technology we have, but the vision I had, has always been there in the back of mind. I remember it because I woke up, and I freaked out completely only to be told a few days later that I had actually died for a four minutes.

Hmm. Well, since you're (thankfully) still alive, the "death" that you experienced wasn't a true death. It wasn't your time. However, the experience allowed you to value your life more. Perhaps you were in a state of limbo, of some sort.

What do you believe will happen beyond that? Or are you not sure?

[Sarah]

Hmm. Well, since you're (thankfully) still alive, the "death" that you experienced wasn't a true death. It wasn't your time. However, the experience allowed you to value your life more. Perhaps you were in a state of limbo, of some sort.

What do you believe will happen beyond that? Or are you not sure?

I just remember being told from my sister, that I was officially pronounced dead for four minutes. And I'm still wondering what the fuck this vision meant, I mean, I'm not a Daddy's girl, I've always had problems getting along with my dad. I think, and I repeat, I THINK, I might've 'stayed' because I wanted to be alive for my daughter who I had only seen for five minutes before blacking out (due to excessive blood loss).

If I had died, I would've not been able to move on to the 'other-side' given the circumstances.

[Switchback]

I just remember being told from my sister, that I was officially pronounced dead for four minutes. And I'm still wondering what the fuck this vision meant, I mean, I'm not a Daddy's girl, I've always had problems getting along with my dad. I think, and I repeat, I THINK, I might've 'stayed' because I wanted to be alive for my daughter who I had only seen for five minutes before blacking out (due to excessive blood loss).

If I had died, I would've not been able to move on to the 'other-side' given the circumstances.

Our death is written before we're born.
I can't really say what your visions meant, I can only speculate. But, I feel that the experience gave you the strength and understanding to be a wonderful mother to your daughter and appreciate your life.

[travz21]

A creator isn't logical to you? Why so?

Because it has absolutely nothing to do with logic. It's based solely on beliefs, which humans are known to be ridiculous about.

[Switchback]

Because it has absolutely nothing to do with logic. It's based solely on beliefs, which humans are known to be ridiculous about.

Hmm. Well, I'd say it's illogical to say there was nothing, and then now everything. And logical to believe there is a creator.

[travz21]

You can't base logic off of something that isn't proven to be real.

[Dean]

Hmm. Well, I'd say it's illogical to say there was nothing, and then now everything. And logical to believe there is a creator.
But if you think it makes more sense to believe in a creator, who created the creator? Who created the creator's creator? In that respect it's no more logical than thinking things just happened.

[Switchback]

You can't base logic off of something that isn't proven to be real.

God hasn't been disproven, however. There is strong evidence to say there is a creator.


But if you think it makes more sense to believe in a creator, who created the creator? Who created the creator's creator? In that respect it's no more logical than thinking things just happened.

God, by definition, is uncreated. When you ask the question "who created God?" You're not longer referring to God.

[Dean]

God hasn't been disproven, however. There is strong evidence to say there is a creator.
There isn't. And God doesn't need to be disproven because there's no evidence in the first place.



God, by definition, is uncreated. When you ask the question "who created God?" You're not longer referring to God.
So how is that more logical than something that's actually tangible? If you believe in God fine, but I don't see how that is more logical.

[Switchback]

There isn't.

So how is that more logical than something that's actually tangible?

Just from the balance of nature and existence, it would be reasonable to believe in a creator. Everything has unique properties (the earth being a set distance away from the sun, etc), if even one minor thing was different, our existence would not be.

I don't understand what you mean from your second comment.
Every created thing has a creator.

[.Amanda.]

I can't honestly say because I seem to change my mind and ideas so often.

I believe the universe is a circle of energy and that when we die, our engery is converted into something somewhere else on the planet. In some sense, I believe in reincarnation but it's a little more scientific than that to me.

I'm pagan so I do believe in an "afterlife" but I've put my own spin on things, I suppose.

Like I said, I don't know. No one does. No reason to waste time that should be spent living thinking about dying. It is what it is and whatever happens happens. I can't stop it either way.

[travz21]

God hasn't been disproven, however. There is strong evidence to say there is a creator.

You can't disprove a negative. You can use that argument for anything. You can't prove that I can't crap gold after I eat a fairy from Venus. See?

[Switchback]

If you believe in God fine, but I don't see how that is more logical.

Well, in simple terms, a Creator, to all of this is more logical than nothing, to all of this.


You can't disprove a negative. You can use that argument for anything. You can't prove that I can't crap gold after I eat a fairy from Venus. See?

Yes, true. Although, if the materials you mentioned were provided and you were asked to carry the act out, that may be a test for it.
But, I mean, science is eliminating false models of God, not God.

Oh, and I'm not here to persuade, or force anyone. Merely putting my input. I don't mind the discussion/s, however.

[Todd]

Saying that god exists because it's yet to be disproven is like saying bigfoot exists because it's yet to be disproven. You can't prove a negative.

[Switchback]

Saying that god exists because it's yet to be disproven is like saying bigfoot exists because it's yet to be disproven. You can't prove a negative.

Oh. I didn't mean that was my sole reason for belief. I guess I worded things incorrectly.

[travz21]

Yes, true. Although, if the materials you mentioned were provided and you were asked to carry the act out, that may be a test for it.
But, I mean, science is eliminating false models of God, not God.

And if God was provided to us, I'm sure there may a couple tests for him/her/it. The incredible likelihood is that we are never going to be provided with either, making both situations equal in the eyes of science.

And I don't think anybody is here to persuade anybody. Discussion is great.

[Switchback]

And if God was provided to us, I'm sure there may a couple tests for him/her/it. The incredible likelihood is that we are never going to be provided with either, making both situations equal in the eyes of science.

And I don't think anybody is here to persuade anybody. Discussion is great.

Not earthly ones. God is above His creation, after all.

There's strong evidence in religious scriptures, though.

[Dean]

Just from the balance of nature and existence, it would be reasonable to believe in a creator. Everything has unique properties (the earth being a set distance away from the sun, etc), if even one minor thing was different, our existence would not be.
That's just your interpretation, though.
The universe is... big. And random. Enough so that we could just as well exist by coincidence and that the conditions that facilitate that do as well, and that the same goes on other planets out there. There's nothing that inherently implies a creator.


created thing[/i] has a creator.
Well, that's it. We weren't necessarily created. Whether or not you believe in God really does come down to faith - there's no evidence against but there's no scientific evidence for in the first place, and there are plenty of philosophical and logical arguments against as well... whereas there is tangible evidence that the universe exists. Believing in God isn't necessarily wrong but it isn't more logical either.

[Switchback]

That's just your interpretation, though.
The universe is... big. And random. Enough so that we could just as well exist by coincidence and that the conditions that facilitate that do as well, and that the same goes on other planets out there. There's nothing that inherently implies a creator.


Well, that's it. We weren't necessarily created. Whether or not you believe in God really does come down to faith - there's no evidence against but there's no scientific evidence for in the first place, and there are plenty of philosophical and logical arguments against as well... whereas there is tangible evidence that the universe exists. Believing in God isn't necessarily wrong but it isn't more logical either.

So, you're saying your life is an accident?

What's your definition of God, by the way?
To say there isn't a God, you should have a meaning of what you're rejecting.

[travz21]

To say there isn't a God, you should have a meaning of what you're rejecting.

As a person who is atheist, I almost feel insulted when people ask me this. To even have to describe myself as atheist makes me mad. Like if you believers hadn't gone out of your way to try and create something that isn't there, the rest of us could just live life like it actually is (a coincidence) without having to be subjected to religious nonsense. There is nothing to believe in, well, because there just isn't a need to. You guys created this genre for humans that is totally unnecessary. The only reason it came into existence is because humans are curious beings and want everything to be clear cut. When it couldn't be, they needed to do something to fill the void. What would have happened if people had just kept on living their lives without making up a higher power?

To be asked why we don't believe is like asking why we never gave thought to something that has no bearing on real life. We can't see it, smell it, taste it, hear it, or feel it. Nothing. How would normal people answer a question like that? They'd be like, "What are you talking about? How did you even think of that?"

Which brings me back to my point of going out of your way. It's not possible to think of something like that unless you go out of your way to do so. Whether it be ghosts, monsters, or God. So that's what I feel like I have to do when people talk about religion. I feel like I'm going totally out of my way. It shouldn't even be a topic to talk about. It's just a thing that corrupts humans and has really brought no benefit to the world. Humans making up ghosts and monsters has been far less damaging.

[Switchback]

As a person who is atheist, I almost feel insulted when people ask me this. To even have to describe myself as atheist makes me mad. Like if you believers hadn't gone out of your way to try and create something that isn't there, the rest of us could just live life like it actually is (a coincidence) without having to be subjected to religious nonsense. There is nothing to believe in, well, because there just isn't a need to. You guys created this genre for humans that is totally unnecessary. The only reason it came into existence is because humans are curious beings and want everything to be clear cut. When it couldn't be, they needed to do something to fill the void. What would have happened if people had just kept on living their lives without making up a higher power?

To be asked why we don't believe is like asking why we never gave thought to something that has no bearing on real life. We can't see it, smell it, taste it, hear it, or feel it. Nothing. How would normal people answer a question like that? They'd be like, "What are you talking about? How did you even think of that?"

Which brings me back to my point of going out of your way. It's not possible to think of something like that unless you go out of your way to do so. Whether it be ghosts, monsters, or God. So that's what I feel like I have to do when people talk about religion. I feel like I'm going totally out of my way. It shouldn't even be a topic to talk about. It's just a thing that corrupts humans and has really brought no benefit to the world. Humans making up ghosts and monsters has been far less damaging.

Why? It's a genuine question. Perhaps you're rejecting a false view of God, anyway.
And, you sound a little bitter in your post. You don't have to discuss, if you don't wish to. I thought you wanted to, as you were responding.

As for your final paragraph, you seem to have issues with people, not faith.

[travz21]

I'm not bitter. Religion just annoys me when I get on a rant lol.

I don't really know what else you're asking me.

[Switchback]

I'm not bitter. Religion just annoys me when I get on a rant lol.

I don't really know what else you're asking me.

Well, you didn't really answer, but what is your concept of God?
Although, if you don't want to, that's fine.

[travz21]

I don't have a concept of God. I think it's a creation of man. And it has kept on going throughout the years because people are afraid of what will happen to them when they die, as well as not being able to explain their existence on Earth. It's human nature, so I shouldn't be blaming anybody. I just think it's pretty ridiculous that in this day and age that people still believe in fairy tales. Science is very clearly the driving force in the universe.

[Switchback]

Science correlates with religion.

And, it seems as though you're rejecting the false information of God that you've come across.

[Sarah]

Our death is written before we're born.
I can't really say what your visions meant, I can only speculate. But, I feel that the experience gave you the strength and understanding to be a wonderful mother to your daughter and appreciate your life.

I totally see where you're coming from. Maybe it did. I'm not highly religious (or else I wouldn't have conceived out of wedlock) but I do think there is a force out there. Because like you said before, it wasn't my time to go and maybe that force might've been God wanting me to stay for the remainder of my life.

But after facing death, I do think there is someone looking at me. I don't know who or what, but something wanted me stay on Earth. Even if religion causes all this crap around the world, after facing death, it's made me stop and appreciate life so much more.

[Switchback]

I totally see where you're coming from. Maybe it did. I'm not highly religious (or else I wouldn't have conceived out of wedlock) but I do think there is a force out there. Because like you said before, it wasn't my time to go and maybe that force might've been God wanting me to stay for the remainder of my life.

Well, the event could serve as a wake up call to go out and learn more. You already mentioned you appreciate your life a whole lot more. And, even though you're not highly religious, you could look to learn more about the Creator and creation. (Although, I don't mean to sound as though I'm pushing anything on you.)

[Sarah]

Well, the event could serve as a wake up call to go out and learn more. You already mentioned you appreciate your life a whole lot more. And, even though you're not highly religious, you could look to learn more about the Creator and creation. (Although, I don't mean to sound as though I'm pushing anything on you.)

I have always believed that something created us all, even if it comes from Heaven or Hell. I mean, science is science and religion is religion, but both have connections. I chose to believe what I believe through experience, not through what some altered book dictates to me. I also believe that death is not an ending of something, but yet, it could be the beginning of something, like a journey. But I've learnt that through out my cultural travels and day to day experience. I wasn't brought up to believe in just one religion, but in a number of them combined. I don't know how old everyone else is, or how far they've travelled, but I'm 21, and been through a number of countries when young and those beliefs hold with me. So who created the creator? No one, really. It was a little bit of this and a little bit of that. No one created 'God'. I believe he was created by heaven and hell because he is a little bit of good and a little bit of bullshit at the same time.

[Switchback]

I have always believed that something created us all, even if it comes from Heaven or Hell. I mean, science is science and religion is religion, but both have connections. I chose to believe what I believe through experience, not through what some altered book dictates to me. I also believe that death is not an ending of something, but yet, it could be the beginning of something, like a journey. But I've learnt that through out my cultural travels and day to day experience. I wasn't brought up to believe in just one religion, but in a number of them combined. I don't know how old everyone else is, or how far they've travelled, but I'm 21, and been through a number of countries when young and those beliefs hold with me. So who created the creator? No one, really. It was a little bit of this and a little bit of that. No one created 'God'. I believe he was created by heaven and hell because he is a little bit of good and a little bit of bullshit at the same time.

Science and religion do correlate, as well.
And, there is one religious scripture that hasn't been altered by man. And never will be.
As for believing in various religions; rivers, oceans, seas, puddles all contain water, just as all religions contain truths.

And, as I said in an earlier post, God, by definition, is uncreated.

[Dean]

So, you're saying your life is an accident?

What's your definition of God, by the way?
To say there isn't a God, you should have a meaning of what you're rejecting.
In the grand scheme of things, maybe it is. It doesn't mean I can't aim to make the best of it though. I just try to be the best person I can be.

And when I talk about God I guess I mean an omnipotent, benevolent force.

[Sarah]

Science and religion do correlate, as well.
And, there is one religious scripture that hasn't been altered by man. And never will be.
As for believing in various religions; rivers, oceans, seas, puddles all contain water, just as all religions contain truths.

And, as I said in an earlier post, God, by definition, is uncreated.

By definition, God was created by the heavens (Christian/Catholic belief) or some sort of Heavenly power. But that's not what I choose to believe because I think he cannot because he's not entirely good.

[Switchback]

In the grand scheme of things, maybe it is. It doesn't mean I can't aim to make the best of it though. I just try to be the best person I can be.

And when I talk about God I guess I mean an omnipotent, benevolent force.

If it's an accident and nothing will come if, why bother? Why have morals, etc?




By definition, God was created by the heavens (Christian/Catholic belief) or some sort of Heavenly power. But that's not what I choose to believe because I think he cannot because he's not entirely good.

Oh? Do you have the verses of the Bible for that? I hadn't read that.

[Dean]

If it's an accident and nothing will come if, why bother? Why have morals, etc?
Because I'm here and I want to.

[Switchback]

Because I'm here and I want to.

How would you convince an evil-doer to stop doing their evil deeds?
The concept of peace and humanity is useless without the belief of the hereafter.

[Dean]

How would you convince an evil-doer to stop doing their evil deeds?
The concept of peace and humanity is useless without the belief of the hereafter.
Peace and humanity doesn't stop being beneficial just because it lies in our hands and not God's. What difference does it make? I don't see how his existence is necessary for that, and I live my life now and not in preparation for the off-chance that there might be an afterlife, so it stands to reason that I should try my best in the here and now.

[travz21]

How would you convince an evil-doer to stop doing their evil deeds?
The concept of peace and humanity is useless without the belief of the hereafter.

So the main reason you do good things is because of afterlife? Shouldn't you do them because you feel it's the right thing to do and because you want to be a better person? Wouldn't God frown upon people who do things just because they are told by the Bible? Those people shouldn't go to heaven. It should be reserved for people who truly are good people. If I made the Bible, things would be way better.

Myself, I don't need a fiction book to tell me what's right and wrong. I'm perfectly able to deduce those things on my own. The point of living isn't to do the right things so you make it to heaven. That's the most pathetic reason to be a good person I've ever heard.

And science and religion have nothing to do with one another. They are opposing forces that will never give way to the other because one isn't real and will never be able to be disproved.

[Switchback]

Peace and humanity doesn't stop being beneficial just because it lies in our hands and not God's. What difference does it make? I don't see how his existence is necessary for that, and I live my life now and not in preparation for the off-chance that there might be an afterlife, so it stands to reason that I should try my best in the here and now.

Alright. Let's use this example. Robbing is an evil act, I'm sure you'll agree. How would a person who does not believe in the afterlife convince a powerful criminal that robbing is evil and not to do it?


So the main reason you do good things is because of afterlife? Shouldn't you do them because you feel it's the right thing to do and because you want to be a better person? Wouldn't God frown upon people who do things just because they are told by the Bible? Those people shouldn't go to heaven. It should be reserved for people who truly are good people. If I made the Bible, things would be way better.

Myself, I don't need a fiction book to tell me what's right and wrong. I'm perfectly able to deduce those things on my own. The point of living isn't to do the right things so you make it to heaven. That's the most pathetic reason to be a good person I've ever heard.

And science and religion have nothing to do with one another. They are opposing forces that will never give way to the other because one isn't real and will never be able to be disproved.

It's not my main reason. I'm using it as an example.
Religious scriptures are used for guidance. A parent will tell his/her young child not to do a certain thing, and will be pleased if their child listens. Does a child always know why he/she should/shouldn't do things?

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." And, "a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God."
Religious scriptures has paved way for many scientific discoveries.

[Todd]

How would you convince an evil-doer to stop doing their evil deeds?
The concept of peace and humanity is useless without the belief of the hereafter.

There are plenty of things to convince me to not do anything evil that have nothing to do with religion. I don't kill people I don't like because I'm worried about hell, I don't kill people because I don't want to go to jail for the rest of my life. The notion that people need to be scared of something to be good is bullshit, especially when you consider all of the atrocities committed in the name of religion throughout history.

[travz21]

Religious scriptures has paved way for many scientific discoveries.

Like how when we finally discovered that the Earth wasn't the center of the universe the church tried to cover it up for a really long time? And after it finally got out, how they tried to spew some nonsense to try to make sense of it to other Christians?


This discussion has finally hit the point of no return. Here are some good vids

glRAN_8CkvQ

bkhQLt1vbWU

Edit: a few more videos

pkCuc34hvD4

fnjfxCp92pc

P591Yt6dIHY

[Switchback]

There are plenty of things to convince me to not do anything evil that have nothing to do with religion. I don't kill people I don't like because I'm worried about hell, I don't kill people because I don't want to go to jail for the rest of my life. The notion that people need to be scared of something to be good is bullshit, especially when you consider all of the atrocities committed in the name of religion throughout history.

How about a super criminal? How do you convince him/her not to do those things?

Atrocities have been committed in the name of many things. The underlying cause/reason? Man's failings.

[Switchback]

Like how when we finally discovered that the Earth wasn't the center of the universe the church tried to cover it up for a really long time? And after it finally got out, how they tried to spew some nonsense to try to make sense of it to other Christians?
This discussion has finally hit the point of no return. Here are some good vids


You're assuming I'm a Christian.

If a new object, machine, (or whatever) that no one has ever seen of or heard of before is brought in front of you, and you're asked who is the first person that can provide the mechanisms of the object, what will the viable answer be? The creator, producer, manufacturer. I.e, the person who made it.

Theory of probability (quick overview, I'm sure you understand it):
You roll a six sided dice, you have 1/6 chance of guessing the outcome correctly. Roll again, you have 1/36 (1/6 x 1/6) of guessing both outcomes correctly.

Let's apply this to The Qur'an, and assume that the information it reveals was guessed (which was unknown at the time).

At the time when The Qur'an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur'an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

Further, The Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur'an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about 0.0017%.

After only three fully established scientific facts, the chance of guessing is equal to about 0.0017%. It would further decrease with the many more scientific facts that are stated. Could they all have been guessed? It's beyond human capacity to guess all of these things, without a single mistake. 80% of The Qur'an has proven to be true. The other 20% is unambiguous, not yet proved.
The logical answer is that the creator provided this information.

The Qur'an is a book of guidance and signs. It has over 6,000 verses and more than 1,000 speak of science.

[travz21]

Who would have thought that people who observe the world around them would understand some of it?

[Switchback]

Who would have thought that people who observe the world around them would understand some of it?

Sure. For some things, you could say that. However, if you read, there are countless things in there. Many of which were only recently discovered, with technology.
And, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was illiterate.

[Switchback]

If you're interesting, I have an eBook on The Qur'an and Modern Science.

[travz21]

I'm not interested. Thanks, though.

In other news, did anybody see a couple months back when people thought they found Noah's ark? What ever happened with that?

[Dean]

How about a super criminal? How do you convince him/her not to do those things?

Atrocities have been committed in the name of many things. The underlying cause/reason? Man's failings.
You're kind of having it both ways there. Let's say I did try to convince a criminal that they were wrong, and I couldn't. I could just chalk it up to his failings as a human, not because I couldn't scare him straight. Just like if I went your way it wouldn't exactly be a given that he'd be bothered.

[.Amanda.]

I really dislike the argument of "if there's no God then what's stopping everyone from being evil?"

Somewhat because I'd like to think that human beings have a little more sense than that. Partially because science tells me that we are social animals by nature and therefore our instincts do not program us to kill one another but to (if anything) facilitate and encourage each others' survival. MOSTLY because it scares me to think that if we were to ever disprove God that all these people who use that argument would go on huge homicidal killing sprees...

[Switchback]

You're kind of having it both ways there. Let's say I did try to convince a criminal that they were wrong, and I couldn't. I could just chalk it up to his failings as a human, not because I couldn't scare him straight. Just like if I went your way it wouldn't exactly be a given that he'd be bothered.

So, without an end reason, many people won't want to.

You tell this super criminal that it's against humanity, and he'd just ask who wrote the rules of humanity? Why should they care?

[travz21]

He doesn't need to care. Some people have problems. Not everybody has a moral compass. That's part of the reason some people commit crimes. Which is a reason they go to jail and are kept away from society.

[Switchback]

He doesn't need to care. Some people have problems. Not everybody has a moral compass. That's part of the reason some people commit crimes. Which is a reason they go to jail and are kept away from society.

Right. If you were wronged, wouldn't you want some sort of justice?

Also, you were saying about logic, science and religion. Is it logical that 1,400 years ago, an illiterate shepherd was able to correctly guess that animals miles underwater have light? Or about the big bang? And more.

[travz21]

I'm sure there were many people who guessed many things. Just like there are today. And you don't need to know how to read to understand those two things. Again, how are you going to source something that is 1,400 years old? Everything has been doctored by now to religion's benefit.

[Hawk]

God created the Heavens and the Earth, and Humans.....where do the dinosaurs fit in? Thats a pretty big hole.
Also, people who say that there must be a creator because of the position of the Earth and stuff, well, think of it in scientific way.

[Sarah]

God created the Heavens and the Earth, and Humans.....where do the dinosaurs fit in? Thats a pretty big hole.
Also, people who say that there must be a creator because of the position of the Earth and stuff, well, think of it in scientific way.

He created the creatures apparently. But I believe Evolution created creatures.

[Hawk]

He created the creatures apparently. But I believe Evolution created creatures.

Hmm....but there is still a gap. God created Man at the same time he created Earth, if the dinosaurs were created at the same time, how come we don't date back to living that long, and how came we don't remember anything? It would have been passed down, wouldn't it?

I believe in Karma though.

[Dean]

So, without an end reason, many people won't want to.

You tell this super criminal that it's against humanity, and he'd just ask who wrote the rules of humanity? Why should they care?
Not necessarily. I honestly don't see how whether it comes from God or humanity itself is automatically going to make a difference. And as I've already said my "end reason" is in this life, not an afterlife that could just as well not exist.

[Jesse]

To think that ones moral compass should be provided by religion scares the shit out of me. Sure, there are some good things that might have come out of religion but the majority of it that I can see is just complete and utter insanity. Death, Prejudice, Hatred, Fear, etc. Some types of religion exclude this, as Zen Buddhism, and mostly humanism-humanist etc, and atheism I say could be categorized as a religion once it goes into anti-theism, as it would be a dogmatic mission to try to deconvert people.

Anyway back to my point on the moral compass. I use to be religious, quite a bit actually and I'm going to tell you right now, religion in my very own personal opinion made me a worse person, it made me somewhat intolerant and just a big asshole, until one day I got this itching feeling in the back of my head and I was like, this doesn't really make any sense. No, I did not become an atheist in a day, nor in a week, in fact, I struggled with my beliefs for years going through different religions as if they were crisps. Finally, I accepted I didn't believe in any type of God and labeled myself as Zen Buddhist, as I really felt comfortable with a lot of that religion and I liked the fact that I didn't need to be dogmatic or believe in any type of deity. Now I just label myself as an atheist because well, it clarify my beliefs for people who want to know. My only concept of God is that there is none. It's not rejecting, it's not a belief, it's a lack of belief.

So, thinking I was a pretty good person while I was religious actually helped me to realize how stupid I was being about some things after I became an atheist. I'm a very open-minded person today, who bases his morals on what is right, and that is derived from "Does it hurt anyone?", it also allowed me to accept that I was Bi-sexual after being told again and again how wrong it was to be anything other than heterosexual.

This rant is getting pretty long so I'll try to summarize now. 1. Life is bullshit. 2. Death is bullshit also. But you make the best out of life, and you just keep the memories of the dead. 3. You don't need religion to have ethics or morals. 4. People who are good people mostly due to their religion are scary to me. 5. I rather they have their religion because as they point out, they confess they'd have no reason to be moral and that is very frightening to me.

And in conclusion, I'd like to apologize if I had offended anyone. If I were to give myself a religion as of today it'd be "Science" and my soul would be my "Conscious" and my "afterlife" would be my body decaying and giving life to other things. and my sense of "forever" would be past, because past is infinite. Even if there is a time when Nothing exist, there would still be a point when there was Time, and that will never go away. Sure it will be totally and utmost irrelevant since there would be nothing to remember it, but the fact is that it would still be because it is, and it is. So Past is Infinite and the only thing that doesn't have a death.

[iNuBBiN]

I think everyone has there own religion. Something that they belief in. 2 people can be christian but are going to have agrees and disagrees. I believe what i believe and im not one to say you are wrong. I dont think anyone should be forced onto a religion but find "god" on there own. I think everyone has there own personal relationship with what they believe.
I think if i could pick a religion i like it would be the religion they created in the tv show SUPERNATURAL on how they twist it up. How not everything is what the bible says.

[travz21]

urlTBBKTO68

[Sarah]

So I was thinking about the question, who created God if He was the ultimate creator (Christian/Catholic Wise) and going back to a Psalm statement I got jumbled up.

http://carm.org/if-everything-needs-creator-then-who-or-what-created-god

In a long story cut short:


By definition, the Christian God never came into existence; that is, He is the uncaused cause (Psalm 90:2). He was always in existence and He is the one who created space, time, and matter. This means that the Christian God is the uncaused cause, and is the ultimate creator. This eliminates the infinite regression problem.

Some may ask, "But who created God?" The answer is that by definition He is not created; He is eternal. He is the One who brought time, space, and matter into existence. Since the concept of causality deals with space, time, and matter, and since God is the one who brought space, time, and matter into existence, the concept of causality does not apply to God since it is something related to the reality of space, time, and matter. Since God is before space, time, and matter, the issue of causality does not apply to Him.

[travz21]

Checkmate, Atheists!

[Theazninvasion68]

I thought this was about death, not the questioning of God. :lol:

The main points so far is that if a thing does not physically exist, then one cannot use the tools of science to prove it. Since we cannot deductively prove, we must inference as a way to reason.

I'm not going to say science will prove it all, we're discovering new things and all. However, one thing I know for sure about is that Truth will never change. (Logic! Subjectivity.)

I've yet to change my belief about death.

We do have a soul, it does exist without the body, while we have our body, and after the body.

Sure, a soul might be an immaterial thing. But some immaterial things are important. Sight is important. Is it not true that sight will exist, regardless whether the eye is there, or if it went blind? Isn't it also the same for a boat? What is a boat without it's sailors? Quite obviously, A "lifeless" boat, and uncontrolled. Is it not the same for humans then? A soul will exist, whether or not the body is there, or if it were to be injured. A body without a soul would be quite frankly, "lifeless."

Not lifeless in the literal-sense though. It'd still live, and go with the flow, however, it wouldn't have its own strong sense of self.

As for all this debate that got us side-tracked plenty of pages? I take a stand near switchback/Sarah as a believer. Are we wrong to do so? Absolutely not. For it does not make us better than you, nor you than us.

And honestly, the debate will never end, no matter what. It's not going to end now, nor will it end soon (unless 2012 comes around and...yeah.. What year is it again? :lol:)

So therefore: No. Not checkmate, Atheist! Stalemate.

[avo1216]

We do have a soul, it does exist without the body, while we have our body, and after the body.

Sure, a soul might be an immaterial thing. But some immaterial things are important. Sight is important. Is it not true that sight will exist, regardless whether the eye is there, or if it went blind? Isn't it also the same for a boat? What is a boat without it's sailors? Quite obviously, A "lifeless" boat, and uncontrolled. Is it not the same for humans then? A soul will exist, whether or not the body is there, or if it were to be injured. A body without a soul would be quite frankly, "lifeless."

There is no real evidence of an actual soul though - electrical impulses? yes. But not for a "soul." As you have stated, "if a thing does not physically exist, then one cannot use the tools of science to prove it." And also, sight has to do with seeing, which one cannot do without the use of an eye; so if you are blind, then sight does not exist for you.

[Sarah]

There is no real evidence of an actual soul though - electrical impulses? yes. But not for a "soul." As you have stated, "if a thing does not physically exist, then one cannot use the tools of science to prove it." And also, sight has to do with seeing, which one cannot do without the use of an eye; so if you are blind, then sight does not exist for you.

You prefer science over moral beliefs?

Ever heard the saying "The Eyes Are The Gateway to Your Soul"? You don't have to see to see into someone's soul. It's a literal meaning. It's like saying you need to be able to talk to talk, when there are other forms of speaking like sign language. There's other literal ways of seeing other with your eyes.

[travz21]

You prefer science over moral beliefs?

Ever heard the saying "The Eyes Are The Gateway to Your Soul"? You don't have to see to see into someone's soul. It's a literal meaning. It's like saying you need to be able to talk to talk, when there are other forms of speaking like sign language. There's other literal ways of seeing other with your eyes.

Except none of those things have anything to do with moral beliefs. They are all still scientific.

[Theazninvasion68]

There is no real evidence of an actual soul though - electrical impulses? yes. But not for a "soul." As you have stated, "if a thing does not physically exist, then one cannot use the tools of science to prove it." And also, sight has to do with seeing, which one cannot do without the use of an eye; so if you are blind, then sight does not exist for you.

Is it not true that Sight does exist independent of us? That even if I was blind, or born without eyes, that sight and seeing would still exist?

As said, I haven't changed my stance. I did a poorly-done argument earlier in this thread, I know. Indeed, because science will only prove what is demonstrate-able. A soul isn't a material thing. Any argument I can form will only be by inference, and which by you will say "The lack of evidence is astounding."

Again, I'm not in this for the science of things, just the truth of things.

If you're speaking about things such as "eletrical impulses" They're called Synapses. If you're curious about more sciencey-psychology part, please read up on the "Dualism/monoism" debate. Quite interesting I might say :D

[avo1216]

Is it not true that Sight does exist independent of us? That even if I was blind, or born without eyes, that sight and seeing would still exist?

As said, I haven't changed my stance. I did a poorly-done argument earlier in this thread, I know. Indeed, because science will only prove what is demonstrate-able. A soul isn't a material thing. Any argument I can form will only be by inference, and which by you will say "The lack of evidence is astounding."

Again, I'm not in this for the science of things, just the truth of things.

If you're speaking about things such as "eletrical impulses" They're called Synapses. If you're curious about more sciencey-psychology part, please read up on the "Dualism/monoism" debate. Quite interesting I might say :D

Sight –noun
1. the power or faculty of seeing; perception of objects by use of the eyes; vision.
2. an act, fact, or instance of seeing.
3. one's range of vision on some specific occasion: Land is in sight.

There are many more definitions but none of them help prove your point that sight is a "thing", for lack of a better term. And also, for me, science leads to the truth, everything else is just a deterrence. I don't wish to start an argument over beliefs here, but I just want you to understand where I'm coming from.

And also, synapses are just the area where the signals are transmitted through neurons, not the actual impulses; but I don't really care about that, it was just an example.

[Necromorph]

when you dide, you die.

[Theazninvasion68]

Sight –noun

. And also, for me, science leads to the truth, everything else is just a deterrence. I don't wish to start an argument over beliefs here, but I just want you to understand where I'm coming from.

And also, synapses are just the area where the signals are transmitted through neurons, not the actual impulses; but I don't really care about that, it was just an example.

Indeed, Science does lead to the truth. It leads by demonstration specifically. However, Everything else cannot be a deterrence. Statistics is a math that isn't deductive as it is interpretive and inferred logic (From a sample etc.) What about Social Sciences, such as Psychology (Which I love :awesome: ) And Sociology? Such truths about people and trends wouldn't ever be considered truthful, or even possible a few hundred years ago.

But alas, I agree with you. I don't wish to start an argument over beliefs (Such as this entire thread as been :lol: ) Neither have been proven to be the absolute truth yet.

Indeed, I do understand where you are coming from. :) I'll respect your stance if you'll respect mine.

[avo1216]

I guess I should have been more clear but when I said that science leads to truth, I pretty much meant everything logical (including math, psychology, etc); therefore excluding religions, superstitions, and personal beliefs based merely on what that individual wants to be true.

[Theazninvasion68]

I guess I should have been more clear but when I said that science leads to truth, I pretty much meant everything logical (including math, psychology, etc); therefore excluding religions, superstitions, and personal beliefs based merely on what that individual wants to be true.

OOH.

Derp. :lol: my bad.

[avo1216]

haha no big deal :lol:

[Jesse]

What's the question again? If we ever wish for death? if so, sometimes. But other than that, I'd have to say I do not believe in anything after death except not existing.

[Necromorph]

can someone answer this, it sort of goes into the subject or religion

what about in religion?
lets say i believe in a religion called "awesome", and that religion believes once you die you go to "good" or "bad"
then if your a christian they believe you will go to heaven or hell.
but when you die, where do you go? lol
if christians blieve you go to heaven or hell, and you believe you go to good or bad then they conflict

[esaul17]

can someone answer this, it sort of goes into the subject or religion

I am not sure what kind of answer you want. If Christians are right, you go to hell. If you are right, then you go to whichever of those your religion claims you belong in.

In reality, neither of you are right, and you in all likelihood go nowhere. But the difficulty doesn't come from people having contradicting beliefs. Truth is not concerned with your or anyone else's beliefs.

[travz21]

Truth is not concerned with your or anyone else's beliefs.

Truth is so damn selfish.

[Theazninvasion68]

can someone answer this, it sort of goes into the subject or religion

See the relationship of the way "Heaven" and "good, "hell" and "bad".

The words are connotative in-themselves

The labeling of terms is does not matter. The truth is, and that is if you're a believer, that any sort of "good / pleasant / forever / awesome / etc" and anything sort of "hurt, fire, pain, alone , torture, etc" Is a sort of renamed "heaven" and hell"

Hypothetically.

E,g When you die, you go to a place in either goodie or baddie. One being of a terrible place to be, and the other a fantastic place to live forever.
When I die, I go to a place in either heaven or hell. One being of a terrible place and the other fantastic.

(I duno, you pick.)

In essence, both have the end result of the same thing.

An analogy would be one country calling an apple 'mmaple' while another calls it "nai-nai-".

Same object, different names.
You call it mmple
I call it nai-nai.
The object still is an apple, regardless of it's name.

Whether or not you believe in an afterlife is up to you. There isn't any observable data to say "why in-fact there is a place called Good, and heres some pictures, and here are some pictures of bad. Take a look!"

This is why there's faith involved, because it is something you know to be true and you hold on to it in the absence of data.

EDIT: Travz21: Then you get into Moral relativism.. :awesome:

hahaah.

[Sarah]

Truth is so damn selfish.

Truth is unbiased.

[Todd]

can someone answer this, it sort of goes into the subject or religion

Of course religions conflict, that's why nearly every war and conflict that has taken place in the history of the world was done in the name of religion.

If Christians are right, you go to hell. If your "awesome" religion is right, you go to heaven. If Atheists are right, then you're dead, and that's it, you don't go anywhere.

[Dedicated]

What I never understood was; if the Devil is against God and is a fallen angel or whatever, then why would he punish those who were bad in the afterlife? Surely the Devil would just be like "well played."


And anyway, as far as I'm concerned, when you die, you die. And as a side note, there's far too many inaccuracies within most, if not all, religious groups for them to truly be followed based solely on blind faith.

[Todd]

That's what I don't get either. The devil would like people who've been bad. I bet hell is just one big party and the holy roller Christians just don't want us to have fun for eternity.

[El Muerto]

Well as far as I understand it, it's not the Devil who punishes them, God does.

Imagine afterlife as a big hospital with God being in charge of the whole place. So if you're good, you'll be working as a doctor with angels as your supervisors and if you're bad you'll be working in maintenance cleaning toilets with Devil as your supervisor.

[Dean]

If the devil is the embodiment of evil, he wouldn't be nice to people just because they spite the things he doesn't like. He would still be a bastard to everyone. That's how I would look at it, anyway.

[esaul17]

Some interpretation believe that Hell is simply complete absence of God, so if that is the case the Devil's "punishment" seems less purposeful. He just kind of rules over that.

The idea of a centaur with a pitchfork surrounded by flames though seems so comical that it can't be seriously believed.

[Dean]

Some interpretation believe that Hell is simply complete absence of God, so if that is the case the Devil's "punishment" seems less purposeful. He just kind of rules over that.

The idea of a centaur with a pitchfork surrounded by flames though seems so comical that it can't be seriously believed.
It's just a nitpick but centaurs are the ones that have a whole horse's body, and the upper body of a human where the head and neck would be. :P

[Sarah]

I believe that heaven and hell are an equilibrium to life. You can't have one without the other, Yin and Yang, etc.

[Rana LP Luvr]

When i was young i never wanted to believe in death or we ever going to die ..But i knew there is Heaven where good people go to ..
Hell where bad people go to... i never wanted to die cause i didn't knew how it would be like ..i kept that way never caring about death till i was 15 when my Dad died then i came to believe we are all dying and i have to care about what i do and have to be committed to Religion.. that's my belief about death now

[travz21]

When i was young i never wanted to believe in death or we ever going to die ..But i knew there is Heaven where good people go to ..
Hell where bad people go to... i never wanted to die cause i didn't knew how it would be like ..i kept that way never caring about death till i was 15 when my Dad died then i came to believe we are all dying and i have to care about what i do and have to be committed to Religion.. that's my belief about death now

So because you finally realized that people actually die, you then started to take religion seriously?

[Sarah]

So because you finally realized that people actually die, you then started to take religion seriously?

I never took religion classes seriously. I only agreed to take them because it got me out of going to assembly, And I still don't. In fact, when a bunch of Christian preachers came to our school, we bagged the hell out of them and checkmated them on several notes.

Then we got detention because we right but the teachers thought it was a version of blasphemy. >.<

The reason why I don't take religion seriously, is because I don't need a book or scripture dictate my beliefs. Sure I uphold some beliefs of many religions, and I do believe in a God but not just one. I don't go on preaching my beliefs to people. I ask, they explain, I understand (doesn't mean I always agree).

[Benjamin]

My philosophy is just not to think about it and live your life. I still don't know whether I would call my self an atheist. Just not religious...at all. I don't think I've ever been in a church on a Sunday. But by no means do I go around telling people there isn't a God.

[Jesse]

I really do NOT understand the negative connotations associated with atheists and being called one or admitting to being one. All atheism is a lack of belief.

If you do not believe in a god you are an atheist. Even people who believe in a god are atheists because there are a thousand other gods that people believe in that they don't so everyone is an atheist to one god or another. It's that simple.

Just don't understand people saying "I don't know if I can say myself atheist" no offense dumbledore but hell, if you don't believe in any god you are an atheist and if you believe that there could be a god and there is not one then you are an agnostic atheist. :lol:

Eitherway, I don't believe in heaven or hell. I use to and it damaged me very much emotionally and probably kept me from doing a lot of unharmful and innocent things.

[travz21]

He doesn't wanna label himself an atheist because they are shunned for being so damn logical.


Seriously though, atheists get a bad rap. A lot of people think we worship the devil, have no morals, and live life as evilly as possible. That just stems from the fact that the average person is moronic when it comes to anything religious. They don't discover things on their own and just believe what they are told from higher religious figures.

[Todd]

Fun fact: There are more Muslims in the US Congress than Atheists. That's how much we are hated and treated like lesser beings in this country. I can see someone being reluctant to come out as Atheist, but the more people who openly admit to being Atheist, the fewer places the bigoted religious people have to hide. The more of us there are, the stronger we become as a group. Atheists and gays have a lot in common in terms of people lying about it and being discriminated against for it.

[Jesse]

Fun fact: There are more Muslims in the US Congress than Atheists. That's how much we are hated and treated like lesser beings in this country. I can see someone being reluctant to come out as Atheist, but the more people who openly admit to being Atheist, the fewer places the bigoted religious people have to hide. The more of us there are, the stronger we become as a group. Atheists and gays have a lot in common in terms of people lying about it and being discriminated against for it.

I've felt similar to this frequently.

[travz21]

Atheists and gays have a lot in common in terms of people lying about it and being discriminated against for it.

It does feel that way. The average homosexual and atheist both seem hesitant to tell the truth on the matter. It's ridiculous how society almost forces them to do that.

It still annoys me that I have to even label myself as atheist. Why should I need to label myself for a whole system that is totally made up? Just because people thousands of years ago felt the need to make up religion, I have to also make up a fake name for something that also doesn't exist?

[Jesse]

I do find unicorns more plausible than either heaven or hell to be honest. Not that I believe in unicorns, just that it seems more likely to see a horse with a horn than there to be life after life has ended.

[Necromorph]

on the other page good points were made.
the devil doesn't like god, so if god send atheists down to hell i swear it would be one huge party with beer and stuff.
while up in heaven is all quite and calm, my friend who believes in god says you dont get thirsty or hungry or anything...no offense but hell ftw!

[Theazninvasion68]

I don't understand why being religious gets a bad rep either.

And yes, I don't understand why Atheists get a bad rep either.

Must be people's perceptions. Hmm.

[travz21]

I don't understand why being religious gets a bad rep either.

It does?

[lachina128]

I find it funny that people think atheists get a bad rep while some believe that religious people get a bad rep...I think everyone just gets a bad rep :lol: Seriously though I just think those who get a bad rep (Religious/Atheists) are just the ones that like to act holier-than-thou in their beliefs and try to shove them down peoples' throats. You're an atheist? Ok that's cool, but feel free to not act as if I'm crazy or as if I'm automatically wrong for whatever I believe in. You're religious? (And I'm not specifying any religion here) Ok that's cool, but don't condemn me and/or try to convert me to YOUR beliefs simply because I don't share your views.

As for me, I was raised Catholic but I grew away from the church because I disagree with their views. At times I felt I should identify myself as an atheist but there are times where I'm not sure if that's what I believe but I try to live by my own set of rules and try to make sure I don't get bad karma. If I (for some reason) get reincarnated, I would hope I come back as some rich person...or maybe I'll get lucky and come back as the granddaughter of Mark Zuckerberg...that would be nice.

[Sarah]

Fun fact: There are more Muslims in the US Congress than Atheists.

Proof that the American congress is a living and breathing pile of hypocrisy. Thanks for that fun fact.

[Rana LP Luvr]

So because you finally realized that people actually die, you then started to take religion seriously? I
always took religion seriously ..but death never... cared about that we will be judged for what we do in life.
I began to take it seriously about 'death' and that t can come any timr and you have to be prepared..
Wait a second , i believed that people die...but it would be expected.. much confusing ..sorry

[Dean]

I wouldn't put being an atheist on a level with being gay, whatever country you're from. I mean, I don't think either should be discriminated against, but one's generally a conscious choice and the other isn't. The same goes for discrimination against any sort of religious views... if having whatever views you have is hard, it's still probably a piece of cake compared to dealing with something you're stuck with that people still have an irrational hatred of.

I'm not saying anyone has done that, I just felt like putting out there.

[Todd]

Proof that the American congress is a living and breathing pile of hypocrisy. Thanks for that fun fact.


I'm not sure what youre getting at here. Yeah, the US congress is a pile of hypocrisy but that has nothing to do with the religion of its members. The members of congress are elected by the people. I posted that to make a point. So many people in this country have an irrational hatred of Muslims, even to go so far as to falsely label our president of one in an attempt to smear him, and yet, they still have elected more Muslims to Congress than Atheists.

Granted, its not many more. There are 2 Muslims in Congress and one Atheist. Out of 535 members.

[Todd]

Odd, I have no idea how this thread got closed, I must've accidentally clicked something. That was definitely not my intention.

[Theazninvasion68]

It does?

It's not often that it does, but there are those who oppose it vehemently.

And then there are those who claim superiority over one another.


And at that, If it were not to get any bad rep, then why could that be? Excluding familiar social groups, and excluding the statistically extreme ones (Eg, Heavens Gate, Jim Jones, etc...)

More often then not, to me at least, it seems as though it is only the ones who get bad rep on either side are not the 95% of people, nor 1% of people (Again, far extremes that are bad regardless of position) but the middle 4%.

Rough estimates.

[Sarah]

I'm not sure what youre getting at here. Yeah, the US congress is a pile of hypocrisy but that has nothing to do with the religion of its members. The members of congress are elected by the people. I posted that to make a point. So many people in this country have an irrational hatred of Muslims, even to go so far as to falsely label our president of one in an attempt to smear him, and yet, they still have elected more Muslims to Congress than Atheists.

Granted, its not many more. There are 2 Muslims in Congress and one Atheist. Out of 535 members.

Ah I was under the impression that a majority of it were Islamic. The statement was more at least were pointed at congressmen who oppose Islam and it's beliefs and are merely elected for their irrational reasoning. And as for that one Atheist, what county/state do they come from? Because in my eyes, a majority of the US congressmen are Christian or uphold strong Christian/Catholic values (i.e. no abortion no gay marriages). And a few of them uphold reasonable values (I think it's the state of California that allows gay marriages?).

Other than that, I really don't know how the American political system works (like how laws are passed) as our political stratas are completely different.

[Theazninvasion68]

(I think it's the state of California that allows gay marriages?).

.

I think it's Massachusets actually. California had a huge thing whether or not to allow homosexual marriages, and it was shotdown (i think by something like upper 40's - lower 60's )


---

edit: So I think we should get back on the topic of Death. :lol:

[ThaHandyman]

This. I also got taught to be fearful of hell. Fright tatics, you know..

I don't fear hell in the least. But yes I know theres an afterlife and i know I'm going to heaven.

[Vdalem]

Death is the final chapter in the book of our life. I believe that I may not see my parents or anyone I grew to love. So if I do good, if I don't....oh well. The end.