The burqa controversy

[Sarah]

SYDNEY - An Australian politican's call to ban the burqa "for safety" following an armed robbery by a bandit wearing the Islamic veil has triggered heated public debate following similar moves in Europe.

Senator Cory Bernardi sparked a national furore with claims that the use of a burqa in a hold-up in Sydney on Wednesday showed it had "no place in Australian society" and should be banned "for safety, and for society".

"The burqa is no longer simply the symbol of female repression and Islamic culture, it is now emerging as the preferred disguise of bandits and ne'er-do-wells," Bernardi, a conservative lawmaker, wrote on his website.

"New arrivals to this country should not come here to recreate the living environment they have just left. They should come here for a better life based on the freedoms and values that have built our great nation."

His comments ignited intense public debate, with opposition leader Tony Abbott forced to distance himself from Bernardi and declare that such a ban was not opposition policy.

"I think a lot of Australians find the wearing of the burqa quite confronting and I wish it was not widely worn," Abbott said.

"But the point is we don't have a policy to ban it and we have always respected people's rights in this area."

Prime Minister Kevin Rudd said there was no reason to introduce a ban, adding that the "worst thing we can do is actually start ganging up on particular groups within our country."

"I believe Australians pride themselves in having a diverse society, one which is characterised by tolerance, one where we don’t stand up and give people lectures about what they should be wearing," Rudd said on Friday.

"These are sensitive and important matters which have a real effect on community life."

Muslims make up about 1.7 percent of Australia's heavily Christian population of 22 million, and religious tensions have run high in recent years.

Anti-Muslim sentiment flared on Sydney's southern Cronulla Beach in December 2005 when mobs of whites attacked Lebanese Australians there in a bid to "reclaim the beach."

The race riots, the country's worst of modern times, sparked a retaliatory campaign in which churches, shops and cars were attacked.

Belgium last month became the first country to pass a national ban on the burqa, and France's national assembly is soon to debate such a move.

Italian police this week fined a woman 500 euros (630 US dollars) for wearing a full Islamic veil, the first punishment of its kind in Italy. The city of Novara adopted a decree in January banning the burqa in public.

Views?

[minuteforce]

It's former Prime Minister Kevin Rudd now. ;P

But, like ... should they ban ski masks and whatnot as well, then?

[El Muerto]

You know, I'm not a racist nor do I generally give a shit if someone is Christian, Muslim or worships a tree in his garden, but I've come to realize that Muslims can really be big hypocrites sometimes. When Europeans come to Muslim countries there's a strict dresscode, they aren't allowed to do shitload of things and get fined for banal reasons. But when burqa gets banned in Europe they act like it's the end of the world.

[Sarah]

You know, I'm not a racist nor do I generally give a shit if someone is Christian, Muslim or worships a tree in his garden, but I've come to realize that Muslims can really be big hypocrites sometimes. When Europeans come to Muslim countries there's a strict dresscode, they aren't allowed to do shitload of things and get fined for banal reasons. But when burqa gets banned in Europe they act like it's the end of the world.

Sounds like the catholic church as well.

[Theazninvasion68]

Sounds like the catholic church as well.

Odd. I didn't know the Catholic church required any practicing catholic to wear anything specifically.

Specifically for the females too.

Those that are priviledged to wear anything special are usually due to ancestry or high tradition.

It seems to an outsider that the Burqa is a religious culture clothing standard. A further inspection and abit of wondering, and one may conclude that burqa's are really weird.

In my opinion, A Burqa is a symbolic oppression thingy. Sure, it might be tradition, but really, it isn't a sign of anything wonderful, but a sign of something oppressive / repressive of females.

TL;DR?

They're lame.

[Luke]

You know, I'm not a racist nor do I generally give a shit if someone is Christian, Muslim or worships a tree in his garden, but I've come to realize that Muslims can really be big hypocrites sometimes. When Europeans come to Muslim countries there's a strict dresscode, they aren't allowed to do shitload of things and get fined for banal reasons. But when burqa gets banned in Europe they act like it's the end of the world.

Most religions are hypocritical though. It's just that because there's an overwhelming modern day fear and manufactured anxiety towards Islam, everyone has forgotten their own hypocrisy and made Islam a scapegoat.

I think this a pathetic attempt to remove something because it has ideologies that anyone who is ignorant of it's meaning can't understand what it represents. If you're going to ban Burqas because people are using them for robberies, then shouldn't you ban anything that could potentially be used in a robbery?

I'm sick of all this anti-Islamic bullshit. No one stops to say that 90% of the Muslim population are peace-loving, decent people. The media chooses to focus on the 10% that are radical extremist nutjobs and automatically the rest of the world sees all of Islam as the enemy and shows anxiety towards anything that represents it. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of Catholic priests sexually abused children...Does it mean all priests are sick, child molesting bastards? Does it mean we should ban all priests from ever coming in contact with children. Of course not.

This story is just a hidden attempt to eradicate a symbol of Islam from actively being on Australian streets and I find it a sickening, primitive way of thinking.

[El Muerto]

Sounds like the catholic church as well.

I've been to Vatican which is as Catholic as it gets and no one ever told me how to act or what to wear. There were people inside the Saint Peter's cathedral wearing short pants (which are supposedly banned) and a friend of mine was drunk as a pig and he just walked in without a problem. On the other hand, in Dubai you can go to prison for kissing your girlfriend on the beach.

[minuteforce]

In my opinion, A Burqa is a symbolic oppression thingy. Sure, it might be tradition, but really, it isn't a sign of anything wonderful, but a sign of something oppressive / repressive of females.
I kind of agree, but I'm sure there are lots of women who wear it by choice. :3

[Messy Marj]

Security goes before Religion, simply put.

Plus, in my opinion, it's oppressing women. I imagine it's like living in a prison, you could give me a 100 million euro's but never will I wear an unhuman thing like the burqa.

[Theazninvasion68]

I kind of agree, but I'm sure there are lots of women who wear it by choice. :3

:lol: Pretty sure oppression isn't by choice.

[Luke]

I've been to Vatican which is as Catholic as it gets and no one ever told me how to act or what to wear. There were people inside the Saint Peter's cathedral wearing short pants (which are supposedly banned) and a friend of mine was drunk as a pig and he just walked in without a problem. On the other hand, in Dubai you can go to prison for kissing your girlfriend on the beach.

Who are we to question their culture though?

Besides, it's not like the west don't have their weird laws (http://www.azzit.de/humor/30.html)

[Messy Marj]

:lol: Pretty sure oppression isn't by choice.

There ARE lots of women who wear it by choice, although I think it's only because they are either brainwashed or they're afraid of their husband.

[Theazninvasion68]

There ARE lots of women who wear it by choice, although I think it's only because they are either brainwashed or they're afraid of their husband.

If they are afraid, that implies not choice, but fear.

And doing so from fear does not imply choice either.

If they are brainwashed, then... hmm...

[Luke]

Might I point out that alot of Christian women or horribly opressed because of the interpreted ideals of their religion, particularly in Catholicism. So because a Burqa is a physical reflection of the opression of women, that makes it worse than the opression that isn't so evident? I don't think so.

[El Muerto]

Most religions are hypocritical though. It's just that because there's an overwhelming modern day fear and manufactured anxiety towards Islam, everyone has forgotten their own hypocrisy and made Islam a scapegoat.


Most of the religions tell only their own people what to do and what not to. But Islam constantly tries to tell non-islamic people what to do. Have you ever really heard any example of Ortodox Cristian rule preventing somebody in England from doing something?
I really don't care if Muslims are not allowed to draw pictures of Mohammed, but if a Danish non-islamic journalist want to do it, he has the right to do it. A similar thing happened here in Serbia a couple of days ago, and the Islamic community has gone absolutely mad about it. That's what I just can't understand. It's the 21st century for Christ's sake, if I don't let my of religion tell me what to do, I certainly won't let any other.



Plus, in my opinion, it's oppressing women. I imagine it's like living in a prison, you could give me a 100 million euro's but never will I wear an unhuman thing like the burqa.

Hmm.. well, for that amount of money I'd wear ANYTHING you say :lol:

[Theazninvasion68]

The oppression of women isn't so evident within Catholicism. At least, I don't know. I wouldn't know to be sure, but I haven't seen any catholic in my life be oppressed by the clothing industry.

Nor have I see them oppressed else where. In fact, Religion aside, it is usually cases of Men oppressing ladies in a not very cool way.

Otherwise, it seems clear that, with religion aside, it is sexism within particular cases that causes this oppression you speak of.

[Luke]

Most of the religions tell only their own people what to do and what not to. But Islam constantly tries to tell non-islamic people what to do. Have you ever really heard any example of Ortodox Cristian rule preventing somebody in England from doing something?
I really don't care if Muslims are not allowed to draw pictures of Mohammed, but if a Danish non-islamic journalist want to do it, he has the right to do it. A similar thing happened here in Serbia a couple of days ago, and the Islamic community has gone absolutely mad about it. That's what I just can't understand. It's the 21st century for Christ's sake, if I don't let my of religion tell me what to do, I certainly won't let any other.

It's important not to generalise though. Believe me, those types of Muslims that burnt Danish flags etc. in reaction to the whole cartoon scandal, do not represent the majority of Islam. The majority would probably have condemned it because it is a strong belief that no person, Islamic or not, should depict an image of Muhammed, but the news wouldn't focus on a peaceful protest now would it.

[minuteforce]

There ARE lots of women who wear it by choice, although I think it's only because they are either brainwashed or they're afraid of their husband.
Ah, fair go, then. :)

[Messy Marj]

The thing is, most women in burqas have families who'll throw them out (or worse) if they don't wear it. Atleast that's how some families were when I still lived in my hometown...

[Theazninvasion68]

Why shouldn't they depict an image of Muhammed?

If the news wouldn't focus on anything out of the ordinary, I'm pretty sure they would go out of business really quick :lol:

[Luke]

Why shouldn't they depict an image of Muhammed?

If the news wouldn't focus on anything out of the ordinary, I'm pretty sure they would go out of business really quick :lol:

Because that's thier religion and they care strongly about it their beliefs. You're not technically not supposed to depict an image of the Christian God either (although family guy have seen to that lol).

[El Muerto]

It's important not to generalise though. Believe me, those types of Muslims that burnt Danish flags etc. in reaction to the whole cartoon scandal, do not represent the majority of Islam. The majority would probably have condemned it because it is a strong belief that no person, Islamic or not, should depict an image of Muhammed, but the news wouldn't focus on a peaceful protest now would it.

That's what the problem is, you just cannot have a strong belief that I, as a non-Muslim, can't depict Muhhamed, It defies logic.

[minuteforce]

Because that's thier religion and they care strongly about it their beliefs. You're not technically not supposed to depict an image of the Christian God either (although family guy have seen to that lol).
People will always just pick and choose what rules to go by, however strongly they may care. :)

[Luke]

Look, when it comes down to it, I think Islam as a relgion does need to chill out a little and not act so victimised. But we in the West and more progressive and establish countries need to chill out towards them aswell by not allowing ourselves to be taken in by the fear towards them which is why it's important not to fuel any fires that are going to affect relations between Islam and the rest of the world such as this.

[Sarah]

Remember, a woman can choose to wear a Burqa in a country like Australia. And yes, I would wear a Burqa if I was a muslim woman, I wouldn't want guys checking my tits out that I didn't know. There are a lot of other things I don't agree with in the muslim lifestyle but I do believe we are not a communist/dictatorship and that everybody has a right to their own lifestyle.

The thing is, is that with every religion comes extremists. A majority should not be judged by the minority. If we can't depict Muhammad, they can't depict Jesus either, it works both ways. Even if I go to Lakemba, Sydney Muslim central, I don't get hated because I am not Muslim, if I go to Leichardt, Italian central, I'm not hated because I'm not Italian. Unlike many Islamic countries like Egypt, we're a multicultural country who by defination and lifestyle means there is no one culture to be followed.

Muslims are hard on traditions and some families are lineat, like any other family. Only 3% of Australia is made up from Muslims so I don't grasp the idea that "they are invading us" very well.

[El Muerto]

Look, when it comes down to it, I think Islam as a relgion does need to chill out a little and not act so victimised. But we in the West and more progressive and establish countries need to chill out towards them aswell by not allowing ourselves to be taken in by the fear towards them which is why it's important not to fuel any fires that are going to affect relations between Islam and the rest of the world such as this.

I completely agree with everything you've said.




The thing is, is that with every religion comes extremists. A majority should not be judged by the minority. If we can't depict Muhammad, they can't depict Jesus either, it works both ways. Even if I go to Lakemba, Sydney Muslim central, I don't get hated because I am not Muslim, if I go to Leichardt, Italian central, I'm not hated because I'm not Italian. Unlike many Islamic countries like Egypt, we're a multicultural country who by defination and lifestyle means there is no one culture to be followed.

Egypt? :lol:

[Luke]

Remember, a woman can choose to wear a Burqa in a country like Australia. And yes, I would wear a Burqa if I was a muslim woman, I wouldn't want guys checking my tits out that I didn't know. There are a lot of other things I don't agree with in the muslim lifestyle but I do believe we are not a communist/dictatorship and that everybody has a right to their own lifestyle.

The thing is, is that with every religion comes extremists. A majority should not be judged by the minority. If we can't depict Muhammad, they can't depict Jesus either, it works both ways. Even if I go to Lakemba, Sydney Muslim central, I don't get hated because I am not Muslim, if I go to Leichardt, Italian central, I'm not hated because I'm not Italian. Unlike many Islamic countries like Egypt, we're a multicultural country who by defination and lifestyle means there is no one culture to be followed.

This.

[Messy Marj]

And yes, I would wear a Burqa if I was a muslim woman, I wouldn't want guys checking my tits out that I didn't know.
All your choice babe, just one thing, I'm sure that any religious woman wouldn't like that, but that doesn't mean you need to wear a radical thing like a burqa...

[Sarah]

I completely agree with everything you've said.




Egypt? :lol:

Egypt is thriving with muslims because of their connections to Saudi Arabia.

[El Muerto]

Egypt is thriving with muslims because of their connections to Saudi Arabia.

It's obvious you don't know shit about Egypt, it's actually one of the better Islamic countries to live in.

[Sarah]

And another point I would like to point out like I said to my other half tonight, yes Muslim men are known to beat and rape women, so how is that any different to a white Christian/Catholic man beating and raping his own wife? It's suddenly ten times worse if a Muslim man does it? And it's suddenly worse if a Muslim terrorist is out there and yet no one really gives a shit on the nationals news when a white man holds up a bank, killing civilians?! The thing is in a country like Australia, we forbid stonings as it's inhumane as opposed to countries like Saudi Arabia, we're they are heavily for it. Women do get treated like second class citizens (or so that's the generalisations) in countries like this, so how is that so bad compared to China's human rights violation? I know it sounds like I'm heavily for Muslims in this argument but I was bought up as an optimistic person when it comes to other religions as I have travelled abroad this country before. I don't know any exact passage from their book of worship but I do know that this law they are trying to pass will not pass to ban the Barqa.


It's obvious you don't know shit about Egypt, it's actually one of the better Islamic countries to live in.
It's still a thriving Islamic country like France.

[El Muerto]

It's still a thriving Islamic country like France.

What? Now you're comparing Egypt where more than 95% of the population is Muslim with France where there's maybe 5-10%

[Messy Marj]

It's still a thriving Islamic country like France.
:lol:

[Dean]

I'm not sure if I'm that keen on them myself, but at the same time I don't think this story stands up very well as a case against them. It's not exactly as though it wouldn't have been easy for the person who did this to get ahold of an actual balaclava or hockey mask or whatever, instead of a veil.

[Sarah]

What? Now you're comparing Egypt where more than 95% of the population is Muslim with France where there's maybe 5-10%

Apparently enough for a call to ban to the Barqa in France as well.

[El Muerto]

I'm not sure if I'm that keen on them myself, but at the same time I don't think this story stands up very well as a case against them. It's not exactly as though it wouldn't have been easy for the person who did this to get ahold of an actual balaclava or hockey mask or whatever, instead of a veil.

I thought you said baclava :lol:

http://www.jabulela.com/files/images/Baclava-Bel-Mexarat_-3.jpg

[Messy Marj]

Apparently enough for a call to ban to the Barqa in France as well.

We don't like masked people in public. Even though it's part of a religion, it's impossible to see who's underneath it, as I said before; security goes before religion. And in my opinion, every country should ban the burqa in public places.

[Luke]

"Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve niether" - Ben Franklin

Should we ban anyone from wearing a fancy dress mask in public then? :lol:

[Sarah]

We don't like masked people in public. Even though it's part of a religion, it's impossible to see who's underneath it, as I said before; security goes before religion. And in my opinion, every country should ban the burqa in public places.

But it's their choice, not any politician's choice, and by not allowing them, takes their right to freedom away. Australia is a free country, we should keep it that way. This is me in the shoes of a muslim woman after the law has passed: I can't go outside to do the simpliest of things because I've chosen to never reveal my body to the eyes of strangers.

Out of curiousity, is anyone on LPA muslim?

[Dean]

I thought you said baclava :lol:

http://www.jabulela.com/files/images/Baclava-Bel-Mexarat_-3.jpg
I'm not sure what that is but it looks alright :lol:

[Luke]

I'm not sure what that is but it looks alright :lol:

It's a Greek desert and it tastes fucking awesome. :lol:

[El Muerto]

I'm not sure what that is but it looks alright :lol:

It's a fantastic Turkish dessert, one of the few good things we have left from the Ottoman rule haha :D

[Sarah]

FIFA bans the Hajib (http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2010/04/06/105063.html)


The Iranian girls' soccer team have been kicked out of this year's first Youth Olympics because of a FIFA ban on playing in Islamic head scarves.

Iran's National Olympic Committee (NOC) had refused to let the team play at the Aug. 14-26 Games in Singapore without the hijab and Thailand was nominated to replace the barred Iranians, the Asian Football Confederation (AFC) said on its Web site.

The hijab is worn by girls and women to observe Islamic dress code.

[Luke]

It's a fantastic Turkish dessert, one of the few good things we have left from the Ottoman rule haha :D

Oh man...that's just gonna open that "what's greek and what's turkish" debate. :lol:

@Sarah: In sport I can understand it that.

[El Muerto]

Oh man...that's just gonna open that "what's greek and what's turkish" debate. :lol:

Haha yeah, we're definitely not gonna start it, although I didn't even know some people consider it Greek haha :)

[Luke]

Haha yeah, we're definitely not gonna start it, although I didn't even know some people consider it Greek haha :)

Alot of Greek people claim it as their own but that's just typical Greek/Turkish conflict, always both rowing over who invented what lol.

[El Muerto]

Alot of Greek people claim it as their own but that's just typical Greek/Turkish conflict, always both rowing over who invented what lol.

Honestly, I don't give a shit who invented what, both of their cuisines are fucking amazing :D

[Sarah]

So it's okay to wear a cross chain around your neck but anything else that represents what religion you're from, is totally unexceptable? This also stirred controversy about how the Jews couldn't wear a kippah on his head. Political correction gone wrong.

[minuteforce]

So it's okay to wear a cross chain around your neck but anything else that represents what religion you're from, is totally unexceptable?
Yeah, that is pretty ridiculous. :x

[Messy Marj]

But it's their choice, not any politician's choice, and by not allowing them, takes their right to freedom away. Australia is a free country, we should keep it that way. This is me in the shoes of a muslim woman after the law has passed: I can't go outside to do the simpliest of things because I've chosen to never reveal my body to the eyes of strangers.


Well, I'd like to walk around naked ALL THE TIME, but would everyone appreciate that? No. Does that mean my freedom has been taken away? No. I can still walk around naked at home!!

I'm sure that if someone would wear a balaclava, no one would appreciate it, it doesn't give a positive image, it almost feels like a thread. It's important to see with who you are dealing with, and it's impossible to see through a burqa. I don't care if it's part of a religion, you might as well hide something underneath it.

[Sarah]

Well, I'd like to walk around naked ALL THE TIME, but would everyone appreciate that? No. Does that mean my freedom has been taken away? No. I can still walk around naked at home!!

I'm sure that if someone would wear a balaclava, no one would appreciate it, it doesn't give a positive image, it almost feels like a thread. It's important to see with who you are dealing with, and it's impossible to see through a burqa. I don't care if it's part of a religion, you might as well hide something underneath it.

We don't stop you from doing nudy runs like the university students do in this town, actually, yes we do, it's called indecent exposure. You shouldn't ban something that has been used for ill purposes for a minority of its lifespan as a clothing item, like how we cannot ban motorcycle helmets (you're asked to remove them when you enter a petrol station usually), it's not a 'prison' that women hide behind it's a piece of loose material. If you're going to ban any loose material that's worn, ban the whole fashion industry then. Why don't you just ban mini skirts and boob tubes while you're at it?

[Jesse]

My opinion of the burqa is that it's just plain old dirty stupid sexism.


There's actually a video here that goes into a deep thought provoking discussion about it. It's long but I say it's worth the watch. Even if you don't agree with the final message or the topic of the video.

Hj9oB4zpHww

[Sarah]

Why don't we just ban FACE PAINT while we're at it and all hooded clothing?

[Messy Marj]

We don't stop you from doing nudy runs like the university students do in this town, actually, yes we do, it's called indecent exposure. You shouldn't ban something that has been used for ill purposes for a minority of its lifespan as a clothing item, like how we cannot ban motorcycle helmets (you're asked to remove them when you enter a petrol station usually), it's not a 'prison' that women hide behind it's a piece of loose material. If you're going to ban any loose material that's worn, ban the whole fashion industry then. Why don't you just ban mini skirts and boob tubes while you're at it?

I only used the nudity example to show you that not all lifestyles are accepted outside your own home! Can't you imagine that a burqa can feel like a threat to the people?
It's all about national security!!! My brain is about to explode because you don't seem to get my point!!

And the cross chain? Cross chains do not hide your entire body like a burqa does.

[Jesse]

Why don't we just ban FACE PAINT while we're at it and all hooded clothing?

Banning something just because it may potentially be used for a robbery is quite stupid I admit. Anything can be used for a robbery. A pencil can be used as a quite efficient weapon. Ski-masks can be used for avoiding identification etc. etc.

[Sarah]

I only used the nudity example to show you that not all lifestyles are accepted outside your own home! Can't you imagine that a burqa can feel like a threat to the people?
It's all about national security!!! My brain is about to explode because you don't seem to get my point!!

And the cross chain? Cross chains do not hide your entire body like a burqa does.

A hijab doesn't - what FIFA has banned.
http://api.ning.com/files/Tn1vEVScwh9VP8wIzQMSlKRasBP-y29Oab-e7UpXsmzO270goayPUP9c1A-U3gR77dVROqhIwzXdyWQoR32E8-Yp55YSqO8m/mona_hijab_how_to_wear_2red.jpg
Should that be banned as well?
The reason we ban nudy runs is cos no one wants to see a guy's old saggy balls to begin with.
Face paint is more popular way to commit crimes why aren't there calls to ban that?!

[Messy Marj]

A hijab doesn't - what FIFA has banned.
Face paint is more popular way to commit crimes why aren't there calls to ban that?!

Because face paint does not cover up your entire body?!

I'm giving up on this thread.

[Jesse]

Because face paint does not cover up your entire body?!

I'm giving up on this thread.


Well, it's much easier to rob someone and get away with it when your whole body is excempt from identification.

Though I may be a bit biased about it all due to my views on religion in general so maybe I I should just keep quiet about it.

[Sarah]

Well, it's much easier to rob someone and get away with it when your whole body is excempt from identification.

Though I may be a bit biased about it all due to my views on religion in general so maybe I I should just keep quiet about it.

Say it that's what this thread is kinda for.

[minuteforce]

There's actually a video here that goes into a deep thought provoking discussion about it. It's long but I say it's worth the watch. Even if you don't agree with the final message or the topic of the video.
Ooh, I love watching stuff like that. I'll definitely check it out once I've got enough time to. ^_^

[Jesse]

Say it that's what this thread is kinda for.

I'm pretty sure this thread isn't for my hatred of religion and that ranting about it wouldn't be the most kind thing to do. I just think that all religions are hypocritical. And me forming my opinion of the burqa based on my opinions of religion wouldn't be quite fair.

But I have stated that for 1. I do think it oppresses woman
2. What's wrong with showing skin anyway?
3. I have no problem with sexuality or nature (I generally believe it should be people's choice what they should choose/not choose to wear because it doesn't harm anyone)
4. It is easier to get away while you're completely hidden

But I've also stated that

5. I think it's pretty stupid that banning something JUST BECAUSE it will make it easier to rob someone. There are tons of things that you can do that with. Halloween costumes, skimasks, du-rags , etc..

Also, I think it's stupid that where I live in VA that it's illegal for an adult to wear any type of mask in public.

Also, watch the video I've posted. It's really interesting. :)

[Sarah]

Doesn't #3 contradict #1 & #2?

I have no idea what VA is...

[Jesse]

Doesn't #3 contradict #1 & #2?

I have no idea what VA is...

Virginia. State in the USA

I don't think it contradicts one or two because for woman it's not just a choice it is enforced. IF it was all by choice I'd have absolutely no problem with it. I wouldn't understand why you'd wanna wear it but I wouldn't get into a fit about it either. That's the difference between choice, most women wear it out of fear, or because they're just brainwashed into thinking they want to wear it. It oppresses woman, it's plain and simple. There's a difference between wearing it because you want to, or wearing it because there's a say so.

[Luke]

The implication of a Burqa possibly being used to conceal a weapon or a bomb or hide someones face isn't a valid argument. To my knowledge, No attack on the West has been carried out by a women or anyone wearing a Burqa. September 11th was a hijack and the Madrid bombing in 2004 aswell as the 2005 London bombings were bombs hidden in backpacks. Should we then ban any Muslim person from owning a backpack in the interest of national security?

The whole idea that they could conceal a weapon or that they wear the veils to hide their face for the purpose of comitting crimes is nothing more than personal disregard of Islam. You can conceal a weapon in anything.

[Sarah]

Virginia. State in the USA

I don't think it contradicts one or two because for woman it's not just a choice it is enforced. IF it was all by choice I'd have absolutely no problem with it. I wouldn't understand why you'd wanna wear it but I wouldn't get into a fit about it either. That's the difference between choice, most women wear it out of fear, or because they're just brainwashed into thinking they want to wear it. It oppresses woman, it's plain and simple. There's a difference between wearing it because you want to, or wearing it because there's a say so.

Not in countries like Australia wear you don't HAVE to wear headgear to symbolise Islam. I have loads of friends who choose not to wear it and they don't wear anything, doesn't make them anti-Muslim.


The implication of a Burqa possibly being used to conceal a weapon or a bomb or hide someones face isn't a valid argument. To my knowledge, No attack on the West has been carried out by a women or anyone wearing a Burqa. September 11th was a hijack and the Madrid bombing in 2004 aswell as the 2005 London bombings were bombs hidden in backpacks. Should we then ban any Muslim person from owning a backpack in the interest of national security?

The whole idea that they could conceal a weapon or that they wear the veils to hide their face for the purpose of comitting crimes is nothing more than personal disregard of Islam. You can conceal a weapon in anything.

Thank you. And I hate to say it but it this whole attack is indeed an attack on Islam and it's ways, seeing that Burqa is of Islamic tradition and lifestyle. If someone wear to take a bill against my trackies and said I couldn't wear them thinking I'll conceal a weapon or use it as a means to shoplift, I would be pissed, as it was my choice to wear the trackies that don't cover up my whole body, yes I know what this original debate was about, but cover up my legs. You think of why when you enter a shop, you automatically give the right to the shop owners to inspect your bags (I get targeted a lot with a pram by staff).

[Messy Marj]

I was more talking about national security from the point of view of the french government, suicide attacks could easily happen this way, even if it didn't happen yet (here), isn't it better to prevent than to wait and see? They have a point. YES, I know that the thing exists since a loooong time and nothing happened yet, but I rather see it dissapearing, I just think the whole thing is disrespectful to humankind.

[Sarah]

I was more talking about national security from the point of view of the french government, suicide attacks could easily happen this way, even if it didn't happen yet (here), isn't it better to prevent than to wait and see? They have a point. YES, I know that the thing exists since a loooong time and nothing happened yet, but I rather see it dissapearing, I just think the whole thing is unrespectful to humankind.

You think now because of the escalated Jihad, every Burqa wearer is going to become a suicide bomber? That's judging the minority over the majority of law-abiding Muslims out there.
Muslims think you showing your legs as a woman is disrespectful to humankind, but to us it's not.
Yes I've heard of cases that in a suicide bombing a Burqa was involved, and I've also heard about how prescribed over the counter medicines can cause overdoses. Both were used the inappropiate way.

[Messy Marj]

You think now because of the escalated Jihad, every Burqa wearer is going to become a suicide bomber?
Muslims think you showing your legs as a woman is disrespectful to humankind, but to us it's not.

OMG READ!! I am talking from the point of view of the french government. -_-
I don't care if they wear burqas in a muslim country, but in other countries, my country, you need to adapt yourself. You can still practice your religion at home for all I care, it's all your own choice, but outside your home you need to respect the law, which in this case (here in france) means you are not allowed to wear it in public because it may cause panic among the people.

[Sarah]

The French government can shove it up their A hole (no offence intended). They haven't discussed the repurcussions it might have for future generations. Is this the right message we wanna teach our kids? To hate other cultures and not accept them into our country cos we're afraid that they will find ways to bomb us? Cos by suppressing women from their cultural clothing, is the sort of government suppression I really don't like. "Burqa suppresses women" so what is the government doing then if it isn't doing the same thing that the Burqa is doing? I sure as eggs don't I wanna teach my kid that. I want her to be multiculturally diverse as possible. I've been to India, I have learnt their language and still they accepted my mum and my western ways, I wore western clothes all the time, etc. Surely they don't agree with half the things we did. Australia, France, America etc are free countries, not dictatorships, not communist countries telling people what not to wear. If you want to be told What Not To Wear go on that British tv show by the same name. It's political correctness gone way too far. And the man who is going before senate to introduce this bill? Is the leader of a Christian party.

[Messy Marj]

The French government can shove it up their A hole (no offence intended). They haven't discussed the repurcussions it might have for future generations. Is this the right message we wanna teach our kids? To hate other cultures and not accept them into our country cos we're afraid that they will find ways to bomb us? Cos by suppressing women from their cultural clothing, is the sort of government suppression I really don't like. "Burqa suppresses women" so what is the government doing then if it isn't doing the same thing that the Burqa is doing? I sure as eggs don't I wanna teach my kid that. I want her to be multiculturally diverse as possible. I've been to India, I have learnt their language and still they accepted my mum and my western ways, I wore western clothes all the time, etc. Surely they don't agree with half the things we did. Australia, France, America etc are free countries, not dictatorships, not communist countries telling people what not to wear. If you want to be told What Not To Wear go on that British tv show by the same name. It's political correctness gone way too far. And the man who is going before senate to introduce this bill? Is the leader of a Christian party.
Bah bravo, I'm sure you're feeling pretty lucky not living in France. Andl the cultural experience you have!! Wow.

Give me a break. <.<

[Sarah]

Bah bravo, I'm sure you're feeling pretty lucky not living in France. Andl the cultural experience you have!! Wow.

Give me a break. <.<

I'm just saying the French President (Name? I completely forget) has been in other countries and probably lived to his own customs. And yet when a Muslim comes into a country, everything's suddenly chaotic because of their outspoken and media razzled customs and a few Burqa related crimes? It happens here to Marj so don't feel too picked on lol. i.e. the Muslim school that was built. It's okay to have an all Catholic (trust me been to one hated it) school but suddenly it's a big deal with Islamic school? Pfft. That's racial bullying. Like I said to my other half today that was whinging about Muslims this evening (this whole debate came outta that argument) why is it always the Muslims that get the bad press? Seriously. Sometimes I understand sometimes I don't.

[Timothy]

I'm not sure if I'm that keen on them myself, but at the same time I don't think this story stands up very well as a case against them. It's not exactly as though it wouldn't have been easy for the person who did this to get ahold of an actual balaclava or hockey mask or whatever, instead of a veil.

Yeah, it's certainly a valid issue, but their reasoning behind the ban is tenuous at best.

Personally, I think burqas are fucking stupid, but that's beside the point.

[Messy Marj]

I'm just saying the French President (Name? I completely forget) has been in other countries and probably lived to his own customs. And yet when a Muslim comes into a country, everything's suddenly chaotic because of their outspoken and media razzled customs and a few Burqa related crimes? It happens here to Marj so don't feel too picked on lol. i.e. the Muslim school that was built. It's okay to have an all Catholic (trust me been to one hated it) school but suddenly it's a big deal with Islamic school? Pfft. That's racial bullying. Like I said to my other half today that was whinging about Muslims this evening (this whole debate came outta that argument) why is it always the Muslims that get the bad press? Seriously. Sometimes I understand sometimes I don't.
Nicolas Sarkozy.
I understand where you're coming from Sarah, and maybe it's me who's hard-headed, but I still think that a country should protect their own culture. Careful, I'm not saying we should kick out all muslims, but it's annoing to see that other cultures are slowly taking over. Actually in France it's still okay, it's Holland that pisses me off the most. We have too many people living there, still we keep accepting more and more, and guess who has to wait for years to get an apartment and who gets one immediately? Isn't that racism towards your own people? A country can be too civil towards immigrants, that's how you get people angry and how right wing parties seem to gain popularity.

[Agent O]

The implication of a Burqa possibly being used to conceal a weapon or a bomb or hide someones face isn't a valid argument. To my knowledge, No attack on the West has been carried out by a women or anyone wearing a Burqa. September 11th was a hijack and the Madrid bombing in 2004 aswell as the 2005 London bombings were bombs hidden in backpacks. Should we then ban any Muslim person from owning a backpack in the interest of national security?

The whole idea that they could conceal a weapon or that they wear the veils to hide their face for the purpose of comitting crimes is nothing more than personal disregard of Islam. You can conceal a weapon in anything.

EXACTLY MY THOUGHTS!

This is nothing but yet another jab at Islam. One dude decides to wear a burqa and commit a crime... well let's just ban the damn thing and disregard a whole religion's beliefs and ideologies. That makes so much sense.

[Todd]

How about we just ban religion alltogether? Its never done anything good for society.

[Messy Marj]

How about we just ban religion alltogether? Its never done anything good for society.
Merciiii!

[Jesse]

How about we just ban religion alltogether? Its never done anything good for society.

My sentiments EXACTLY.

I'm so glad I got off that ship awhile ago.

I was riding a high horse and I didn't even know it.

[Agent O]

No point shifting the blame to religion. Blame the people who do sick politics in the name of religion.

[Sarah]

How about we just ban religion alltogether? Its never done anything good for society.

Sadly not the case.

[Todd]

Now that I'm on a computer and a phone, I'll type up a couple replies to posts that piqued my interest.


Most of the religions tell only their own people what to do and what not to. But Islam constantly tries to tell non-islamic people what to do. Have you ever really heard any example of Ortodox Cristian rule preventing somebody in England from doing something?
Technically, the religious texts of all the religions apply to everyone, and those that don't follow it are heathens and damned to hell and whatnot. And if you think only Islam tells non-Muslims what to do, I invite you to come to the US, where we have groups such as God Hates Fags, a Christian extremist group that goes around protesting funerals of notable gay people or gay rights activists, and protesting funerals of soldiers killed in the line of duty in Iraq and Afghanistan because they think that God killed American soldiers as punishment for America not outlawing homosexuality. And look no further than our very own House of Representatives and Senate for examples of Christians trying to turn their beliefs into law that would affect every single American regardless of their religion. That's why gay marriage isn't legal in 40-something states and more and more restrictions are being placed on abortion. Because of religious telling non-religious what to do. It's not a unique trait of Islam.



I was more talking about national security from the point of view of the french government, suicide attacks could easily happen this way, even if it didn't happen yet (here), isn't it better to prevent than to wait and see? They have a point. YES, I know that the thing exists since a loooong time and nothing happened yet, but I rather see it dissapearing, I just think the whole thing is disrespectful to humankind.

The thing is though, if a suicide bomber can't hide the bomb in the burqa, they'll hide it somewhere else. In 2001, someone tried to blow up a plane with a shoe in their bomb. So airport security started X-raying shoes. Then in 2009 someone tried to blow up a plane with a bomb taped to their nutsack. So now they're installing whole-body-imaging scanners (X-rays that basically see through your clothes). So if someone defeats that, do we just require everyone to fly naked? Then someone will just hide the bomb up their ass. If someone wants to blow something up, they'll do it, burqa or no burqa.

[Luke]

Todd wins thread.

[Gitsnik]

In most European countries these clothes are only worn by a minority of people (a figure I heard was that only 3 000 women wore a burqa/niqab in France) and the governments use fear to enforce laws that are taking even more private liberties from people.

[Theazninvasion68]

Of anything in this read, I think Jesse put it in the simpliest, most clearest way possible. Moreso than Todd, or Luke. It does so by staying on topic and doesn't dwiddle around about talking about equivocal stuff. To explain..

The talk about Islam is the universal, while the Burqa is only part of Islam.

To further blame it on Islam, and furthermore Religion is kind of confusing.



My opinion of the burqa is that it's just plain old dirty stupid sexism.

If this isn't the pin-point reason why the Burqa isn't cool, then I give up. :lol:

[deftonesfan867]

I see a whole lot of assumptions in this thread....

[Chris(tmas)]

A hijab doesn't - what FIFA has banned.
http://api.ning.com/files/Tn1vEVScwh9VP8wIzQMSlKRasBP-y29Oab-e7UpXsmzO270goayPUP9c1A-U3gR77dVROqhIwzXdyWQoR32E8-Yp55YSqO8m/mona_hijab_how_to_wear_2red.jpg
Should that be banned as well?
The reason we ban nudy runs is cos no one wants to see a guy's old saggy balls to begin with.
Face paint is more popular way to commit crimes why aren't there calls to ban that?!
Can you imagine playing a football match with that thing on your head? Seriously? What the FIFA asked has nothing to do with security or whatsoever, it's about the game.


The French government can shove it up their A hole (no offence intended). They haven't discussed the repurcussions it might have for future generations. Is this the right message we wanna teach our kids? To hate other cultures and not accept them into our country cos we're afraid that they will find ways to bomb us? Cos by suppressing women from their cultural clothing, is the sort of government suppression I really don't like. "Burqa suppresses women" so what is the government doing then if it isn't doing the same thing that the Burqa is doing? I sure as eggs don't I wanna teach my kid that. I want her to be multiculturally diverse as possible. I've been to India, I have learnt their language and still they accepted my mum and my western ways, I wore western clothes all the time, etc. Surely they don't agree with half the things we did. Australia, France, America etc are free countries, not dictatorships, not communist countries telling people what not to wear. If you want to be told What Not To Wear go on that British tv show by the same name. It's political correctness gone way too far. And the man who is going before senate to introduce this bill? Is the leader of a Christian party.

Go to Iran or Saudi Arabia and see how 'free' you'll be.

On topic: I don't know what to think about it. Everyone should be free to express themselves if it comes to religion. If you want to wear a Hijab, fine. A cross? Sure. A burqa? No. You can wear it home all you want but you can easily rob a bank. And the law which forbids women to wear a burqa is not just about the burqa. Don't wear a helmet, a balaclava or anything else that conceals your face in public.

[Harlz]

Exactly.
Hijab? Go for your life. Cross? Why not. Star of David tattoo'd on your forehead? Sure.

But everyone should be recognisable at least.

[esaul17]

I haven't had a chance to read this whole thread yet, but I'll chime in quickly.

I think that if you are in a private place, the owner has the right to dictate what you wear (assuming it doesn't conflict with the law like asking you to be naked). If you don't like it- don't go there.

Similarly, the government has the right to tell you what to wear in government-run places, including schools.

When in elementary school, I'd like the burqa to be banned as it isn't something chosen by the children, but forced on them by the parents. It can lead to social exclusion and is problematic. Once older I think they can decide for themselves if they want to be socially excluded or not, assuming there is no reason to suspect a security issue. In the same way I think I should be able to go to class wearing a balaclava, or dressed as Hitler, I think someone should be able to go to class with their face obscured, or wearing a symbol of hatred and oppression, if they so desire. And face the social consequences. But if they have to do a presentation where communication is important, they should unmask their face to improve their ability to communicate.

As for what Todd said about security, just because you can't cover all security holes doesn't mean you shouldn't try to cover as many as possible. Do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

[Rana LP Luvr]

But it's their choice, not any politician's choice, and by not allowing them, takes their right to freedom away. Australia is a free country, we should keep it that way. This is me in the shoes of a muslim woman after the law has passed: I can't go outside to do the simpliest of things because I've chosen to never reveal my body to the eyes of strangers.

Out of curiousity, is anyone on LPA muslim? i kinda liked your opinion about the bourqa...... for me.... I'm Muslim ...but i wear viels not that long bourqa !!! :)

[Sarah]

Similarly, the government has the right to tell you what to wear in government-run places, including schools.

When in elementary school, I'd like the burqa to be banned as it isn't something chosen by the children, but forced on them by the parents.
But in private schools, the government really has no say.
Technically the Burqa is introduced at puberty.

[esaul17]

But in private schools, the government really has no say.
Technically the Burqa is introduced at puberty.

To be honest, I really don't like private schools in general. There should be a government-enforced curriculum and such that every child should get, I don't think any child should have to receive an education through any religious filter.

[the enigma]

Marj, I don't think you understand what's going on here. It is NOT your right to tell me what I can and cannot do. You CANNOT order me around just to satisfy your own paranoid notions. As long as I am not hurting anyone, I should not be punished for what I do with my life.

[Sarah]

Marj, I don't think you understand what's going on here. It is NOT your right to tell me what I can and cannot do. You CANNOT order me around just to satisfy your own paranoid notions. As long as I am not hurting anyone, I should not be punished for what I do with my life.

Marj does know what's going on. She has her reasons as I have mine.

[Todd]

To be honest, I really don't like private schools in general. There should be a government-enforced curriculum and such that every child should get, I don't think any child should have to receive an education through any religious filter.

Not all private schools are bad, and some are completely non-religious, and are good alternatives for people who live in an area where public schools are sub-par (basically any inner-city area in the US) and still want their children to get a good education. Students who do attend private schools should have to take standardized testing to make sure they're learning real science like evolution, that homosexuality is not a choice but is something you're born with, and learning that the US's founding fathers were mostly agnostic and atheist and that we are not a Christian nation, and whatever other propaganda private religious schools brainwash students with. But I don't have a problem with private schools that teach facts.

And the whole Burqa controversy can be summed up by something Benjamin Franklin said a few hundred years ago: Those who would give up liberty for security deserve neither.

[esaul17]

Not all private schools are bad, and some are completely non-religious, and are good alternatives for people who live in an area where public schools are sub-par (basically any inner-city area in the US) and still want their children to get a good education. Students who do attend private schools should have to take standardized testing to make sure they're learning real science like evolution, that homosexuality is not a choice but is something you're born with, and learning that the US's founding fathers were mostly agnostic and atheist and that we are not a Christian nation, and whatever other propaganda private religious schools brainwash students with. But I don't have a problem with private schools that teach facts.

I agree, but above it was said that "...in private schools, the government really has no say". It is that conception of private schools I dislike, where your children do not get the rights that other children do because of a choice their parents made. Students of private schools, especially at young ages, should not be subject to religious or political ideology, the school should not be a place for indoctrination, but for free, rational, thought.

If private schools are government regulated to stringently assure that no child's right is being violated, by the school or by the child's parents by their choice to place them there, then I do not have an issue with it. There are times when increased funding would provide a better alternative than the public schooling and if the parents can afford their child that opportunity they should.

[Todd]

Ah OK. Yeah, I agree that there should be government regulation of private schools.

Of course, the problem could be solved by properly funding public schools so there's no need for private schools, but that might mean cutting defense spending or raising taxes to pay for it, and we can't do that in the US :rolleyes: I guess the idea is to raise them dumb so they have no choice but to join the military to have any sort of future.

[esaul17]

Ah OK. Yeah, I agree that there should be government regulation of private schools.

Of course, the problem could be solved by properly funding public schools so there's no need for private schools, but that might mean cutting defense spending or raising taxes to pay for it, and we can't do that in the US :rolleyes: I guess the idea is to raise them dumb so they have no choice but to join the military to have any sort of future.

Haha, I am not that knowledgeable on the US' situation. In Canada, I generally was happy with my public school elementary and highschooling though. Of course, such an anecdote proves nothing.


Off topic, today I saw a presumably Muslim girl in McDonalds with what may have been her boyfriend, wearing a full burqa, and having to lift it every time she wanted to take a lick of her icecream cone. It is her choice, it just seemed so sad to me.

[Theazninvasion68]

I think we need to reform education.

[the enigma]

Marj does know what's going on. She has her reasons as I have mine.

What I meant to say is, I don't think she knows why people are so against it. Punish me if I do something wrong, not if someone else does. Regardless of religion or nationality, no one should be punished for someone else's wrong doings. At least, that's what I see with the banning of the burqa, and that's my stance on it.