Mall Rampage Gunman Wanted Fame

[Luke]

I'm sure many of you heard about this at some point yesterday. Some new details have been revealed about the Gunman and his supposed motive for going on a gun rampage in a local Nebraska Mall which resulted in the death of 8 people and also himself:


Gun rampage US teen 'wanted fame'

The gunman used a balcony to aim at victims, reports say


Eyewitness account
A teenager who shot dead eight people in a US shopping centre before killing himself wrote in a suicide note that he wanted to be famous.
Robert Hawkins, 19, from Bellevue, Nebraska, opened fire at the Westroads Mall in Omaha on Wednesday.

A woman who took him in after he left home said he left a note saying he was sorry for everything and did not want to be a burden to anybody.

Police have confirmed the existence of the note, but not its contents.


Map: Westroads mall location and layout
Hawkins struck as the centre was crowded with Christmas shoppers, and witnesses spoke of people screaming and scrambling to find safe shelter.

Five people were wounded, two of them critically.

In a statement, President George W Bush - who visited Omaha earlier in the day for a fundraiser - said he was "deeply saddened" by the shootings.

The shooting took place inside the upmarket Von Maur department store at the Westroads Mall.

Police were called at about 1400 local time (2000 GMT), after receiving a call from inside, said Sgt Teresa Negron.

''He just stood there with his arm like this, his hand straight up in the air, shooting. And then I turned and ran''

Witnesses said the gunman fired down on shoppers from a balcony on the third floor of the Von Maur store, using what police said was an SKS rifle to shoot at random.

By the time police arrived at the scene six minutes later, the shooting was over, she said.

Jeff Schaffart was shot in the arm as he spent his lunch break shopping with his wife, Reuters news agency reported. He said he hid in a Von Maur women's bathroom, using his tie as a tourniquet to slow the bleeding.

"I was obviously very fortunate. Not a lot of people were so fortunate today," said Mr Schaffart.

MASS SHOOTINGS IN 2007
Oct 2007: Asa H Coon, 14, shoots four people, injuring them, at his school in Cleveland, Ohio, before killing himself.
April 2007: Cho Seung-hui , 23, shoots 32 people dead on campus of Virginia Tech university, Virginia, then kills himself.
Feb 2007: Sulejman Talovic, 18, shoots dead five people and injures four at a mall in Salt Lake City, Utah, before being killed by police.

Chuck Wright was working at the mall when he heard a "pop pop" sound.

"A lady that I work with on the same floor, she happened to walk over to the [central atrium] and she was standing there and a gentleman walked up, and the shooter reached over the top on the third floor and shot the guy in the head."

Another woman also described seeing the gunman on the attack.

"I went around and then I saw the guy in the children's department," she said.

"Big tall guy, real tall and he just stood there with his arm like this, his hand straight up in the air, shooting. And then I turned and ran."


Witnesses spoke of trying to hide as they waited for police

Seven people were found dead at the scene, and another two died after being taken to a local hospital.

In an e-mail to the BBC, one Omaha resident, called Julie, said that she had been in a restaurant next door to Von Maur department store when the shooting began.

"Someone came in to the restaurant and advised that someone was shooting in the mall and to get out. Everyone started to run out of the small doors in Panera [the restaurant], so we were able to get out very quickly.

"I heard screaming and loud shots being fired somewhere close by. I got out of the mall before the local police department arrived."

The gunman, Robert Hawkins, is said to have suffered from depression in the past, and recently lost his job at McDonald's and broke up with his girlfriend.

He was living with a friend's family in Bellevue, an Omaha suburb.

His friend's mother, Debora Maruca Kovac, told the Associated Press news agency that when he first came to live with them, "he was introverted, a troubled young man who was like a lost pound puppy that nobody wanted".

She said he phoned her about 1300 on Wednesday, telling her that he had left a note for her in his bedroom. She tried to get him to explain.

"He said, 'It's too late'," and then hung up, she told CNN.

In the note, she said, Hawkins had written that "he was sorry for everything, that he didn't want to be a burden to anybody, he loved his family, he loved all of his friends".

The note went on to say he wanted to be famous, she said.

Omaha Police Chief Thomas Warren said the shooting appeared to be "very random and without provocation".

"We do have a [suicide] note. I can't describe the contents of that note, but it does appear this incident was premeditated," he added.

The incident is the latest in a series of mass shootings in the US, which have reignited the debate in the US about gun ownership.

The Supreme Court will consider Americans' right to bear arms early next year for the first time in nearly 70 years.

Taken from BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7130504.stm)

This guy evidently had mental problems. I just hope that the supreme court carefully consider whether to revise the gun laws in America and ultimately change them before more tragedies like this can happen.

[Chris(tmas)]

Only happens in America. Great country.

[Timothy]

Only happens in America. Great country.

Now that's just not true... *looks for gun to get revenge* ...oh wait, shit! :lol:

Seriously, though, guns and drugs are far too easy to get in this country. I
have my beliefs as to why that will never change, but I don't feel like going
into a political-rant at the moment. :lol:

This is an extremely sad story, though. It's even worse that he did it just to become famous... what a fucking asshole.

[Messy Marj]

If Bush is really so 'deeply saddened' then why the fuck doesn't he change the gun laws?

[Derek The Infamous]

Only happens in America. Great country.

I'm sorry but I'm not going to allow you to bring my country into this bullshit, and throw the blame for this event on us. Why? Because your statement is incorrect. There was a college shooting in Canada or another country only a year ago, where some gothic kid came in and randomly started shooting people, so FYI: we are not the only country that has this type of violence.

Your statement set me off because I've had it with the America bashing I see all over the internet. Let me clear something up for you: THE UNITED STATES IS A GREAT COUNTRY, its the idiot we have for president and these attention seeking emo kids with guys that are the real issue in this country. The fact is our gun laws are too lax, but then Bush isn't doing anything about it (even after Virginia Tech) so once again...you can blame that on our lovely president, and not the country itself.

In all honestly I can't wait till we get a new president in office (preferably Barack Obama) so we can regain our standing in the world and this unwarranted hatred against us can stop.

Remember its not America that's the problem, its Bush. As much as I utterly despise the Clinton's we were doing just fine before Bush came in to office.

[Timothy]

I'm sorry but I'm not going to allow you to bring my country into this bullshit, and throw the blame for this event on us. Why? Because your statement is incorrect. There was a college shooting in Canada or another country only a year ago, where some gothic kid came in and randomly started shooting people, so FYI: we are not the only country that has this type of violence.

Your statement set me off because I've had it with the America bashing I see all over the internet. Let me clear something up for you: THE UNITED STATES IS A GREAT COUNTRY, its the idiot we have for president and these attention seeking emo kids with guys that are the real issue in this country. The fact is our gun laws are too lax, but then Bush isn't doing anything about it (even after Virginia Tech) so once again...you can blame that on our lovely president, and not the country itself.

In all honestly I can't wait till we get a new president in office (preferably Barack Obama) so we can regain our standing in the world and this unwarranted hatred against us can stop.

Remember its not America that's the problem, its Bush. As much as I utterly despise the Clinton's we were doing just fine before Bush came in to office.

There was also a school shooting in Finland this year, so it definitely isn't an American only thing. I've just learned to live with the American hate and not
let it get to me. Despite the fact that judging an entire country of 300 million people on the actions of their government (and a small percentage of
low-lifes who always attract the headlines) is extremely ignorant and
borderline prejudice... I've learned to cope.

[Derek The Infamous]

;735180']There was also a school shooting in Finland this year, so it definitely isn't an American only thing. I've just learned to live with the American hate and not
let it get to me. Despite the fact that judging an entire country of 300 million people on the actions of their government (and a small percentage of
low-lifes who always attract the headlines) is extremely ignorant and
borderline prejudice... I've learned to cope.

It just goes to show how a leader of a country can influence people's opinion on that particular country by their actions.

People think North Korea is a violent place, but my friend in the military was stationed there for a year and said the media's representation of it is way off.

[dragon ninja]

The mall where this shooting occurred is 10 minutes away from me, I was just there last week. The city is completely shocked, and I'm still in disgust that a person who is disgraceful enough to take his own life would take it to an even lower level to think he could choose to cut short the lives of random people.

I'm to the point where I don't even trust anyone in public anymore. It's a pathetic mindset, but you really never know.

[Christopher]

I'm sorry but I'm not going to allow you to bring my country into this bullshit, and throw the blame for this event on us. Why? Because your statement is incorrect. There was a college shooting in Canada or another country only a year ago, where some gothic kid came in and randomly started shooting people, so FYI: we are not the only country that has this type of violence.

Your statement set me off because I've had it with the America bashing I see all over the internet. Let me clear something up for you: THE UNITED STATES IS A GREAT COUNTRY, its the idiot we have for president and these attention seeking emo kids with guys that are the real issue in this country. The fact is our gun laws are too lax, but then Bush isn't doing anything about it (even after Virginia Tech) so once again...you can blame that on our lovely president, and not the country itself.

In all honestly I can't wait till we get a new president in office (preferably Barack Obama) so we can regain our standing in the world and this unwarranted hatred against us can stop.

Remember its not America that's the problem, its Bush. As much as I utterly despise the Clinton's we were doing just fine before Bush came in to office.

"Well, then there are too countries where it can happen...?"

No. That's just a stupid statement.

Ok, it happens in America, but there's violence every where. Just earlier this week a couple of people got stabbed at a children's party for Sinterklaas over here... I mean, what the hell?

Changing the gun law would be one thing, but that won't be the end of it. It'll be an endless struggle to get rid of all the violence in the world, but as long as there are people actually taking action there's a change it'll happen right?


You can't blame anyone for this besides the kid who obviously had mental problems.

[Derek The Infamous]

You can't blame anyone for this besides the kid who obviously had mental problems.

QFMFT. Thank you.

[Dedicated]

It seems to me like he didn't do it for fame but he wanted to be famous.

[Luke]

I'm not gonna bash America for this but I will and always will heavily criticise the American gun laws until they're changed. I say this simply because while incidents like this have happened in various countries around the world, the number of Gun crimes in America is absolutely absurd. Time and time again there's mass media coverage of incidents such as this in America and time and time again there are calls for Gun laws to be changed however nothing is ever done. Perhaps it's high time that the US government stop medelling in other countrie's affairs and focus on their own problems because too many innocent people are being killed in cases such as this.

[Rachel]

It seems to me like he didn't do it for fame but he wanted to be famous.

There's a quote from Marilyn Manson about this when he was interviewed by Bill O'Reilly.


"I think that [kids misinterpreting lyrics] is a very valid point, and I think that that's a reflection of not necessarily this program but of television in general. If you die and enough people are watching, you become a martyr. You become a hero, you become well known. So when you have things like Columbine and you have these kids that are angry and they have something to say and no one's listening, the media sends a message that if you do something loud enough, and it gets our attention, then you will be famous for it. Those kids ended up on the cover of Time magazine, and the media gave them exactly what they wanted. That's why I never did any interviews when that happened when I was getting blamed for it, I thought I would be contributing to what I thought would be reprehensible."

Yet again, it happened. Look at how 4chan /b/ board started the "an hero" drama with that kid that killed himself over losing an iPod.

We give people fame who don't deserve it, and then people wonder why there are copycat crimes in the world.

Control guns, talk to your children, and vote for someone who is going to turn the country in a different direction.

I not only blame the people doing the shooting, but the family for not doing anything about their emotional or mental issues sooner.

[Todd]

The "pro-gun/NRA" lobby in this country disgusts me.

On another forum I frequent, there's one member who is extremely pro-gun and anti-gun control, naturally. EVERY TIME an event like this happens, he has to post a thread saying how gun control doesn't work and how we need more guns, and he politicizes tragedies like this. He did it after the shooting in the Salt Lake City mall. He did it after Virginia Tech. He did it after this Omaha shooting. Every god damn time something like this happens, he makes a political statement. He claims that this was able to happen simply because the mall in Omaha (and SLC and VT) chose to disallow concealed weapons and he pushes his NRA bullshit. Right, so you think we can solve the problem of massacres with MORE GUNS? FUCKING IDIOT. Not to mention that I'm sure this all happened within a matter of seconds, and by the time someone with a concealed weapon figured out what the hell was going on, we already would've had 9 people dead.


While this does happen in other countries, and I'm not going to say "only in America" or anything like that, these events are due to problems in America. The pro gun lobby has enough power to prevent the government from passing the needed legislation to keep us safe, and we continue to vote for people who don't have enough balls to stand up to the pro gun lobby and actually pass some decent gun control laws.

I realize that gun control laws will not stop large groups, such as organized crime and gangs from getting guns. They can't easily be stopped. But if we ban guns, we will stop the student who gets bullied one too many times and wants to shoot up the school, and we will stop the depressed guy who wants to be famous. We'll also stop the guy who comes home from work early and finds his wife fucking someone else and gets mad, we'll stop the person who shoots their spouse for life insurance money, we'll stop the robber who shoots the convenience store employee and we'll stop the drunk guys who take a bar fight too far. And these criminals probably cause more deaths than all of the organized crime and gangs combined.

[Chris(tmas)]

I'm sorry but I'm not going to allow you to bring my country into this bullshit, and throw the blame for this event on us. Why? Because your statement is incorrect. There was a college shooting in Canada or another country only a year ago, where some gothic kid came in and randomly started shooting people, so FYI: we are not the only country that has this type of violence.

Your statement set me off because I've had it with the America bashing I see all over the internet. Let me clear something up for you: THE UNITED STATES IS A GREAT COUNTRY, its the idiot we have for president and these attention seeking emo kids with guys that are the real issue in this country. The fact is our gun laws are too lax, but then Bush isn't doing anything about it (even after Virginia Tech) so once again...you can blame that on our lovely president, and not the country itself.

In all honestly I can't wait till we get a new president in office (preferably Barack Obama) so we can regain our standing in the world and this unwarranted hatred against us can stop.

Remember its not America that's the problem, its Bush. As much as I utterly despise the Clinton's we were doing just fine before Bush came in to office.
It happens alot in the USA and thats why I think its a bull country. Bush is the one who's making America what it is today. I dont hate America, dont get me wrong but I wouldnt want to live there.

[Timothy]

The "pro-gun/NRA" lobby in this country disgusts me.

On another forum I frequent, there's one member who is extremely pro-gun and anti-gun control, naturally. EVERY TIME an event like this happens, he has to post a thread saying how gun control doesn't work and how we need more guns, and he politicizes tragedies like this. He did it after the shooting in the Salt Lake City mall. He did it after Virginia Tech. He did it after this Omaha shooting. Every god damn time something like this happens, he makes a political statement. He claims that this was able to happen simply because the mall in Omaha (and SLC and VT) chose to disallow concealed weapons and he pushes his NRA bullshit. Right, so you think we can solve the problem of massacres with MORE GUNS? FUCKING IDIOT. Not to mention that I'm sure this all happened within a matter of seconds, and by the time someone with a concealed weapon figured out what the hell was going on, we already would've had 9 people dead.


While this does happen in other countries, and I'm not going to say "only in America" or anything like that, these events are due to problems in America. The pro gun lobby has enough power to prevent the government from passing the needed legislation to keep us safe, and we continue to vote for people who don't have enough balls to stand up to the pro gun lobby and actually pass some decent gun control laws.

I realize that gun control laws will not stop large groups, such as organized crime and gangs from getting guns. They can't easily be stopped. But if we ban guns, we will stop the student who gets bullied one too many times and wants to shoot up the school, and we will stop the depressed guy who wants to be famous. We'll also stop the guy who comes home from work early and finds his wife fucking someone else and gets mad, we'll stop the person who shoots their spouse for life insurance money, we'll stop the robber who shoots the convenience store employee and we'll stop the drunk guys who take a bar fight too far. And these criminals probably cause more deaths than all of the organized crime and gangs combined.

QFT. I know a guy who went completely ape-shit years ago when Clinton enacted a ban on the sale of automatic weapons. I can understand wanting
to protect yourself (anybody who lives in a bad neighborhood can attest to
that), but do you really need a fucking AK-47 to do it?

There's too much money and corporate interest involved in American politics for anything to get done. Couple that with the aforementioned spineless politicians, who are more concerned with raising their annual salary then doing something that might help the American public, and then you have a clusterfuck.

[Derek The Infamous]

The "pro-gun/NRA" lobby in this country disgusts me.

On another forum I frequent, there's one member who is extremely pro-gun and anti-gun control, naturally. EVERY TIME an event like this happens, he has to post a thread saying how gun control doesn't work and how we need more guns, and he politicizes tragedies like this. He did it after the shooting in the Salt Lake City mall. He did it after Virginia Tech. He did it after this Omaha shooting. Every god damn time something like this happens, he makes a political statement. He claims that this was able to happen simply because the mall in Omaha (and SLC and VT) chose to disallow concealed weapons and he pushes his NRA bullshit. Right, so you think we can solve the problem of massacres with MORE GUNS? FUCKING IDIOT. Not to mention that I'm sure this all happened within a matter of seconds, and by the time someone with a concealed weapon figured out what the hell was going on, we already would've had 9 people dead.


While this does happen in other countries, and I'm not going to say "only in America" or anything like that, these events are due to problems in America. The pro gun lobby has enough power to prevent the government from passing the needed legislation to keep us safe, and we continue to vote for people who don't have enough balls to stand up to the pro gun lobby and actually pass some decent gun control laws.

I realize that gun control laws will not stop large groups, such as organized crime and gangs from getting guns. They can't easily be stopped. But if we ban guns, we will stop the student who gets bullied one too many times and wants to shoot up the school, and we will stop the depressed guy who wants to be famous. We'll also stop the guy who comes home from work early and finds his wife fucking someone else and gets mad, we'll stop the person who shoots their spouse for life insurance money, we'll stop the robber who shoots the convenience store employee and we'll stop the drunk guys who take a bar fight too far. And these criminals probably cause more deaths than all of the organized crime and gangs combined.

And this is why Todd should be president, if not Barack Obama.

Best post in these forums in a long time.

[El Muerto]

The worst thing is that I think whoever becomes your new president the things will stay the same.

[Derek The Infamous]

The worst thing is that I think whoever becomes your new president the things will stay the same.

As much as that is a possibility, I refuse to believe that it can be as bad as it has been with Bush. As much as I despise Hillary, I think that even she could run this country better than Bush has.

Bush has done nothing but to ruin our economy, allow our earth to go in peril, wage a needless war, and destroy our standing in the world. America has lost its respectable position in the world, and that is a sad thing folks.

[Arlene]

Why do people constanly blame President Bush for every tragedy that happens? I mean, yes, he's the President and controls the laws, and is very widely unliked, but you can't blame a shooting by someone who isn't mentally sane, on the President! At all! This is purely, 100% the Hawkin kid's fault. Not President Bush's. And I know, it's because it's easy to get guns in this country, but even if there was a change in the law, people would still possess guns and there would still be these tragedies. But this really shouldn't be a discussion thread, feels a little un-caring.

Anyway, I'm so sorry to hear about this, and I have all the affected families in my heart. And for the one's who died, rest in peace. <3

[Todd]

Why do people constanly blame President Bush for every tragedy that happens? I mean, yes, he's the President and controls the laws, and is very widely unliked, but you can't blame a shooting by someone who isn't mentally sane, on the President! At all! This is purely, 100% the Hawkin kid's fault. Not President Bush's. And I know, it's because it's easy to get guns in this country, but even if there was a change in the law, people would still possess guns and there would still be these tragedies. But this really shouldn't be a discussion thread, feels a little un-caring.

Anyway, I'm so sorry to hear about this, and I have all the affected families in my heart. And for the one's who died, rest in peace. <3


Not entirely true, the congress and the pres controls the laws, but you basically answered your own question. If the dumbass (with the help of congress) passed more gun control legislation, this may not have happened.

[Arlene]

Not entirely true, the congress and the pres controls the laws, but you basically answered your own question. If the dumbass (with the help of congress) passed more gun control legislation, this may not have happened.

Well yeah, I guess, but I also said that even if the law did change, people would STILL have guns, and tragedies like this would still happen. Regardless of our president.

[Rachel]

Oh fuck.

He announced his plan on the 4chan /b/ board.

[Blackee Dammet]

I hate it when people make excuses for this kind of shit. I've read several times in different places already "Oh, I don't agree with what he did, but I understand his pain", "He had problems". or my favorite, "He must've been picked on alot". So the fuck what? Who hasn't been picked on before? Why are there people always ready and willing to be there saying "Well, he had problems, blah blah blah, bullying...". It's just like, Goddammit, everyones got problems, and most of them are bigger than getting fired from McDonalds.

[Will]

Sometimes it's hard for someone to be bigger than the bickering, bigger than the petty name-calling and under-the-breath talking.

/fortminor

[Blackee Dammet]

“Why don't you climb down off the cross, take the wood to build a bridge, and get over it!”

/Christopher Titus

[Louis]

I think after a while, pointing the finger gets old. Point your finger at the government. Point your finger at Bush. Point your finger at the media. After a while, you'd run out of fingers to point.

Incidents like these happen due to a combination of things, not just because Bush doesn't pass no-gun laws, or because the media publicizes events and shows other psychologically disturbed people how to commit mass homicides. These things result from a culmination of failures to prevent. We wouldn't have to worry about guns if necessary action was taken on this guy. Everyone knew he was depressed and obviously had some serious issues. Who stopped him? You can't always depend on the law to stop the shit before it happens. I don't care if it's their responsibility. As a person, you have the responsibility to do what is right. It's up to you to accept and take it.

No one seemed to do anything about this kid, and unfortunately, people don't remark until after someone kills his or herself or until they kill a bunch of people before killing themselves that a person or group of people are disturbed, bullied, depressed, whatever.

That shouldn't happen.

You look at the world now and the depressed person bound to snap is evident and inevitable. So, why don't you stop that person? You see the kid is sad, alone, unsociable, etc. You stop him. Waiting for him to get a gun, and not only that, wait for him to get a gun, shoot it up, and then blame it on Bush isn't going to solve your problem.

Apparently, everyone seems under the impression that a society relies solely on their government and that isn't the case. Yes, you have a government to keep things civilized and set an order to things, as well as to protect you from any sort of major catastrophe like war. However, they aren't always going to stop events like this mall rampage. You can't blame them. You could stop the guns. He'll get a knife. Or he'll even steal the gun if he has to. You don't know what lengths people like these go to just to prove their point. Making a law won't stop him.

However, a person with concern and suspicion can. Time and time again, that person, or group of people, fails.

I'm no fanatic of the Bush administration and nor do I really have any support for the current gun laws in place. However, pointing the finger at the wrong person won't get you anywhere, let alone pointing the finger at all. Awareness, however, will. The media, however disgusting in some ways it may be, provides a sense of awareness. Blame them for telling everyone something they might want to be aware of in case they have someone psychologically disturbed in their vicinity. Blame them. It won't stop anything.

I think we are relying so heavily on corruption in our government that we are now forming corruption amongst ourselves.

Yeah, pointing the finger after a while gets old. Especially if it's at big-man Bush every time.

[dragon ninja]

I think after a while, pointing the finger gets old. Point your finger at the government. Point your finger at Bush. Point your finger at the media. After a while, you'd run out of fingers to point.

Incidents like these happen due to a combination of things, not just because Bush doesn't pass no-gun laws, or because the media publicizes events and shows other psychologically disturbed people how to commit mass homicides. These things result from a culmination of failures to prevent. We wouldn't have to worry about guns if necessary action was taken on this guy. Everyone knew he was depressed and obviously had some serious issues. Who stopped him? You can't always depend on the law to stop the shit before it happens. I don't care if it's their responsibility. As a person, you have the responsibility to do what is right. It's up to you to accept and take it.

No one seemed to do anything about this kid, and unfortunately, people don't remark until after someone kills his or herself or until they kill a bunch of people before killing themselves that a person or group of people are disturbed, bullied, depressed, whatever.

That shouldn't happen.

You look at the world now and the depressed person bound to snap is evident and inevitable. So, why don't you stop that person? You see the kid is sad, alone, unsociable, etc. You stop him. Waiting for him to get a gun, and not only that, wait for him to get a gun, shoot it up, and then blame it on Bush isn't going to solve your problem.

Apparently, everyone seems under the impression that a society relies solely on their government and that isn't the case. Yes, you have a government to keep things civilized and set an order to things, as well as to protect you from any sort of major catastrophe like war. However, they aren't always going to stop events like this mall rampage. You can't blame them. You could stop the guns. He'll get a knife. Or he'll even steal the gun if he has to. You don't know what lengths people like these go to just to prove their point. Making a law won't stop him.

However, a person with concern and suspicion can. Time and time again, that person, or group of people, fails.

I'm no fanatic of the Bush administration and nor do I really have any support for the current gun laws in place. However, pointing the finger at the wrong person won't get you anywhere, let alone pointing the finger at all. Awareness, however, will. The media, however disgusting in some ways it may be, provides a sense of awareness. Blame them for telling everyone something they might want to be aware of in case they have someone psychologically disturbed in their vicinity. Blame them. It won't stop anything.

I think we are relying so heavily on corruption in our government that we are now forming corruption amongst ourselves.

Yeah, pointing the finger after a while gets old. Especially if it's at big-man Bush every time.

QFT. Thank you.

[Arlene]

Louis, thank you. Pretty much what I wanted to say but in a more intelligent manner. :lol:

[Timothy]

I think after a while, pointing the finger gets old. Point your finger at the government. Point your finger at Bush. Point your finger at the media. After a while, you'd run out of fingers to point.

Incidents like these happen due to a combination of things, not just because Bush doesn't pass no-gun laws, or because the media publicizes events and shows other psychologically disturbed people how to commit mass homicides. These things result from a culmination of failures to prevent. We wouldn't have to worry about guns if necessary action was taken on this guy. Everyone knew he was depressed and obviously had some serious issues. Who stopped him? You can't always depend on the law to stop the shit before it happens. I don't care if it's their responsibility. As a person, you have the responsibility to do what is right. It's up to you to accept and take it.

No one seemed to do anything about this kid, and unfortunately, people don't remark until after someone kills his or herself or until they kill a bunch of people before killing themselves that a person or group of people are disturbed, bullied, depressed, whatever.

That shouldn't happen.

You look at the world now and the depressed person bound to snap is evident and inevitable. So, why don't you stop that person? You see the kid is sad, alone, unsociable, etc. You stop him. Waiting for him to get a gun, and not only that, wait for him to get a gun, shoot it up, and then blame it on Bush isn't going to solve your problem.

Apparently, everyone seems under the impression that a society relies solely on their government and that isn't the case. Yes, you have a government to keep things civilized and set an order to things, as well as to protect you from any sort of major catastrophe like war. However, they aren't always going to stop events like this mall rampage. You can't blame them. You could stop the guns. He'll get a knife. Or he'll even steal the gun if he has to. You don't know what lengths people like these go to just to prove their point. Making a law won't stop him.

However, a person with concern and suspicion can. Time and time again, that person, or group of people, fails.

I'm no fanatic of the Bush administration and nor do I really have any support for the current gun laws in place. However, pointing the finger at the wrong person won't get you anywhere, let alone pointing the finger at all. Awareness, however, will. The media, however disgusting in some ways it may be, provides a sense of awareness. Blame them for telling everyone something they might want to be aware of in case they have someone psychologically disturbed in their vicinity. Blame them. It won't stop anything.

I think we are relying so heavily on corruption in our government that we are now forming corruption amongst ourselves.

Yeah, pointing the finger after a while gets old. Especially if it's at big-man Bush every time.

While gun-control isn't the only problem, it's a glaring issue that can easily
be fixed and would at least decrease the amount of times these incidents happen. As far as people always getting on Bush... I say it's about damn
time. His first term as president was devoid of finger pointing. The American public followed his every word, and look where it's gotten us now. The administration said there were WMD's in Iraq, and anybody who questioned
the validity of that was called "un-American." It's about time we started
judging our leaders performance critically, and not let them get off easy.

The Bush Administration and Congress should be held liable for not enacting laws to keep us safe. The fact that this kid was easily able to obtain an AK-47 (from one of his relatives to boot), should be a tell-tale sign that something isn't right. It's not going to solve the problem, because I think the issue really has more to do with how ingrained violence is in our society, but it's at least a step in the right direction.

[Louis]

;735440']While gun-control isn't the only problem, it's a glaring issue that can easily
be fixed and would at least decrease the amount of times these incidents happen. As far as people always getting on Bush... I say it's about damn
time. His first term as president was devoid of finger pointing. The American public followed his every word, and look where it's gotten us now. The administration said there were WMD's in Iraq, and anybody who questioned
the validity of that was called "un-American." It's about time we started
judging our leaders performance critically, and not let them get off easy.

The Bush Administration and Congress should be held liable for not enacting laws to keep us safe. The fact that this kid was easily able to obtain an AK-47 (from one of his relatives to boot), should be a tell-tale sign that something isn't right. It's not going to solve the problem, because I think the issue really has more to do with how ingrained violence is in our society, but it's at least a step in the right direction.

But whose fault is it that the Bush Administration is in power? Wait, who elected him? It was the people. The people of the United States of America. He won both terms because we elected him. Yes, Bush, as president, should have been doing the right things and since 2003 a lot of things have gone, well, not as we would have liked. However, it's not only the government's duty to keep this country stable, it is also ours. As a nation united, it is part of our duty to help keep this country's stability. So we elect Bush, who did pretty well for his first couple of years. He held well during September 11. However, everyone starts saying, "Gar, I knew he'd be a bad president from the beginning" but it's complete bullshit because we still elected him, for both terms.

And all of the sudden democrats, as well as republicans, who were for the war are now saying, "Ooh, I'm against it. I've always been against it fuck Bush and I'm going to be a better president." Bullshit. You elected him. You funded him. You allowed him to make his decisions. (Not you specifically, I'm speaking in generalities). I know there are some earnest people here who have always been against Bush. However, I know of several who have taken on a liberal view simply because everyone else is, and because it's the new fad to be a Bush-hater.

I've never hated the Bush administration. I see the mistakes they've done. Yeah I think it's time for a new administration. However, we put them there, we said we'd support them, we gave him money to fund a war, and we're doing nothing to stop it. If anything, we started it. We're to blame. Society is to blame, not just the government. Don't expect anything from anyone. You know what your country needs. Make sure you find someone who will provide it next time, and stop bitching about your mistakes because that doesn't get Bush anywhere near leaving Office.

Gun laws are gun laws, and although I don't agree with them all of the time, people need to know that you can lock up your guns. There are other things out there. Materials to make bombs, sharp objects like knives and machetes, poisonous substances and your arms and fists. Deprive a man of a gun, he'll get something else. This kid was deranged. It's quite obvious that if he was deprived of a gun, he wouldn't stop there. There are so many laws to break and so many ways to break them. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Laws don't solve everything.

Like I said earlier, to stop these sort of things, they have to be stopped early on, at the first signs of a problem. Like a cold, or a cancer, or a tumor. They have to be stopped early on before they can get out of hand. People knew this kid was depressed. Who did anything to stop him? Time and time again, we wait until they kill somebody. We wait until they end their own lives. We're dumb-fucks because we continually make this mistake. That's where it has to stop. Bush won't stop it for you. The NRA won't stop it for you. You've got to stop it there. That's the only way these things are prevented.

[Christopher]

I do agree with Louis, but I think the gun law will always be a little to blame too.

If you can't get your hands on a gun, you can't go shooting people.

Still, the solution lies not in the hands of the government who could change those laws but in the people around the kid, the school and family to notice such dramatic plans and help him.

[Timothy]

But whose fault is it that the Bush Administration is in power? Wait, who elected him? It was the people. The people of the United States of America. He won both terms because we elected him. Yes, Bush, as president, should have been doing the right things and since 2003 a lot of things have gone, well, not as we would have liked. However, it's not only the government's duty to keep this country stable, it is also ours. As a nation united, it is part of our duty to help keep this country's stability. So we elect Bush, who did pretty well for his first couple of years. He held well during September 11. However, everyone starts saying, "Gar, I knew he'd be a bad president from the beginning" but it's complete bullshit because we still elected him, for both terms.

And all of the sudden democrats, as well as republicans, who were for the war are now saying, "Ooh, I'm against it. I've always been against it fuck Bush and I'm going to be a better president." Bullshit. You elected him. You funded him. You allowed him to make his decisions. (Not you specifically, I'm speaking in generalities). I know there are some earnest people here who have always been against Bush. However, I know of several who have taken on a liberal view simply because everyone else is, and because it's the new fad to be a Bush-hater.

I've never hated the Bush administration. I see the mistakes they've done. Yeah I think it's time for a new administration. However, we put them there, we said we'd support them, we gave him money to fund a war, and we're doing nothing to stop it. If anything, we started it. We're to blame. Society is to blame, not just the government. Don't expect anything from anyone. You know what your country needs. Make sure you find someone who will provide it next time, and stop bitching about your mistakes because that doesn't get Bush anywhere near leaving Office.

Gun laws are gun laws, and although I don't agree with them all of the time, people need to know that you can lock up your guns. There are other things out there. Materials to make bombs, sharp objects like knives and machetes, poisonous substances and your arms and fists. Deprive a man of a gun, he'll get something else. This kid was deranged. It's quite obvious that if he was deprived of a gun, he wouldn't stop there. There are so many laws to break and so many ways to break them. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Laws don't solve everything.

Like I said earlier, to stop these sort of things, they have to be stopped early on, at the first signs of a problem. Like a cold, or a cancer, or a tumor. They have to be stopped early on before they can get out of hand. People knew this kid was depressed. Who did anything to stop him? Time and time again, we wait until they kill somebody. We wait until they end their own lives. We're dumb-fucks because we continually make this mistake. That's where it has to stop. Bush won't stop it for you. The NRA won't stop it for you. You've got to stop it there. That's the only way these things are prevented.

Like I said in my post... I don't think stricter gun-laws are going to solve the problem outright, but its a necessary step that should have been taken long ago. The lobbying power of the gun and tobacco industries in the U.S. are far too powerful. If somebody is dead set on harming others, I agree they can be creative, but we shouldn't make it easy for them. I don't exactly disagree with what you say, but I also don't think we should discard gun-control so easily.

As far as Bush-Bashing goes, there are a lot of bandwagon jumpers, but I still think the seething anger towards him is completely rational and justified. He has done absolutely nothing of merit since he was elected and failed to fulfill the most menial of presidential prerequisites. For that, I think he deserves every ounce of bullshit he gets.

[Evan™]

It just goes to show how a leader of a country can influence people's opinion on that particular country by their actions.

People think North Korea is a violent place, but my friend in the military was stationed there for a year and said the media's representation of it is way off.

well yeah, stereotyping and what not and plus presidents are sorta the representative/face of the country so im not entirely suprised...