View Full Version : Do you Believe in God?
esaul17
02-24-2007, 09:53 PM
I know I made this poll before, but that was about a year and a half ago. I wanted to see if anything changed since then.
Edit: We managed to keep things in a civilized debate for the majority of the discussion last time. Lets be sure not to get this closed, okay?
And I am really interested in the results here, so I encourage everyone to VOTE!
Seinfeld
02-24-2007, 10:00 PM
I've never felt him/her....why should I believe in something that can't really influence my life unless I believe in it as blindly as others do?...
I don't believe in a god in a religious context.
No, I don't.
I just don't believe that I shouldn't praise someone I have no proof of knowing they're real or not. I don't believe in heaven or hell either, it just seems a bit far-fetched to me really lol.
I think there's more beyond life, than just a person who may or may not have created us.
A note to all posters: please be sure your responses are respectful. Threads like this seem always to go to hell (pun intended).
El Muerto
02-24-2007, 10:24 PM
I'm Ortodox Christian, so yeah, I do believe in God.
Andrea
02-24-2007, 10:41 PM
I believe (and I know a few people in my life think this way too) that here on earth is "heaven" or "hell", depending on how you live your life. I do not believe these so called places exist once you die, but rather they exist now right in front of you at this very moment. The good choices that you make in life represent heaven and the bad choices represent hell. Once you die, that's the end of your own personal heaven or hell and nothing happens after that. I would love to know if there is an after life and a God so I could be proved wrong, but obviously that's kind of hard to find out.
Dave+Kay
02-24-2007, 11:01 PM
Do i beleive in the god that's always refered to as god? No. Do i believe in other gods? Yes. So i'm not exactly sure what to put there. It depends if the question is 'Do you beleive in the Christian god?' or 'Do you believe in the idea of god/gods as a whole' i guess.
Dr. Octogonapus
02-24-2007, 11:13 PM
I'd say I'm agnostic. Nothing has ever happened to me that's ever made my judgement shift in either direction, and I'm not a religious guy, so I'm about as undecided as you can get. I used to claim I was an atheist because I think organized religion is a load of bull, but as for my personal belief in a higher being of any kind, there really isn't any way to prove it or disprove it, so I guess I'll find out when I die or experience some sort of divine intervention.
I'm Ortodox Christian, so yeah, I do believe in God.
I'm Orthodox Christian too, so I too believe in God.
esaul17
02-25-2007, 12:11 AM
Do i beleive in the god that's always refered to as god? No. Do i believe in other gods? Yes. So i'm not exactly sure what to put there. It depends if the question is 'Do you beleive in the Christian god?' or 'Do you believe in the idea of god/gods as a whole' i guess.
This isn't the Christian God, just God/gods in general. But nothing like "God is love" counts, it has to be a mystical, conscious deity.
Dave+Kay
02-25-2007, 12:42 AM
This isn't the Christian God, just God/gods in general. But nothing like "God is love" counts, it has to be a mystical, conscious deity.
Ahh, cheers. In that case, yes i do.
Chris(tmas)
02-25-2007, 01:00 AM
Not really.
.Amanda.
02-25-2007, 01:09 AM
It's complicated but yes, I do believe. I was raised Roman Catholic but since I hit my teens I have veered away from the church. Not as a sign of rebellion or anything of that sort. I have seen the church do some very corrupt things. They wouldn't accept my father because my mother didn't have and anullment of her previous marriage, yet if we had donated a large sum of money, they would have taken him. They tried to set their propaganda on our congregation and made a speech during a mass about how the "gays" were going to hell.
I believe in God, and I think that he would be ashamed if he saw the way people act in "His house".
I do believe in Jesus, but not the way most believe in him. I do think he and Mary Magdalen were together. No, I do not believe in a bloodline. Yes, I believe he was born of Mary the virgin and was the son of God and yes I believe he rose from the dead.
I do not believe in Genesis. I believe in the Theory of Evolution. I don't think Moses ever parted the Red Sea but I do believe that there was a rebellion and that Moses was the leader. The Bible... mostly no. You can't write something decades, in some cases centuries after it happened and expect me to believe it. Hell, I can't tell a story about something that happened in school and have it come back to me correctly in a day let along in a decade!
I have a very strange outlook on religion. It's sort of my own.
I do pray, not often but I do. But I don't go to church. Organized religion annoys me. If I have to talk to God, I want to do it by myself, not with a buch of people standing in a room with me.
That's my rant.
Chris Luke
02-25-2007, 04:10 AM
in my opinon, god is in all of us. he's hope. that's my belief.
in my opinon, god is in all of us. he's hope. that's my belief.
Interesting view :)
esaul17
02-25-2007, 06:13 AM
in my opinon, god is in all of us. he's hope. that's my belief.
Refer to my previous reply: But nothing like "God is love" counts, it has to be a mystical, conscious deity.
Not saying you're WRONG about God, just saying, for the purpose of this poll, you'd be in the 3rd category.
androidkaita
02-25-2007, 06:42 AM
I beleive there is a god, I am being raised a Catholic, so I guess thats all I have ever known. But I think even without my being a Catholic I would still beleive, because I see good things happening all the time to other people around me. Like if someone somehow survives a serious illness and the doctors have proclaimed that person will die in say 3 weeks, but they go on to live a full life, that, to me, has to be by the will of something. Because that definately dosnt happen to everyone.
Daniel
02-25-2007, 07:11 AM
Nope. But I don't have a problem with people that do :)
Nope. But I don't have a problem with people that do :)
Same....until they start trying to force their beliefs down my throat and tell me I'm going to hell because I don't accept their beliefs. A certain large, organized religion is guilty of this, however, they will remain nameless ;)
Daniel
02-25-2007, 07:32 AM
Same....until they start trying to force their beliefs down my throat and tell me I'm going to hell because I don't accept their beliefs. A certain large, organized religion is guilty of this, however, they will remain nameless ;)
Well I would've said that, but I don't have many posts, so I thought I might have gotten a warning or something :lol:
Well I would've said that, but I don't have many posts, so I thought I might have gotten a warning or something :lol:
Thats why I didn't mention any specific religion, but even someone as dumb as a rock, such as our president, could figure it out :lol:
Daniel
02-25-2007, 07:40 AM
Thats why I didn't mention any specific religion, but even someone as dumb as a rock, such as our president, could figure it out :lol:
I wouldn't go quite that far....:lol:
Janie Jones
02-25-2007, 09:01 AM
I kinda agree with what Amanda said. It's like I do believe in God, but not most religious scriptures, and practices, and priests. I don't believe in unbelievable things written in holy books, and don't follow traditions for the sake of it, but I do believe that God exists, and no one can, or even has the right to claim s/he can describe him. I don't believe too much in orthodox beliefs, especially since some very old traditions in my religion (Hinduism) are degrading towards women. But I think God exists, and the only way to reach him, or be true to him or whatever is to be kind to everyone. I think that's the most important thing in life and everyone should do it regardless of beliefs. In that respect, Abu Ben Adam is probably the poem I respect the most.
And I believe the most sacrilegious and blasphemous people are those who'd kill other people for not accepting their beliefs, or who'd treat another person as inferior because some book told him too. Those kind of people are disgutsting and deserve to be shot. The only sinners are those who'd hate another for no good reason, and harm him/her.
Well, there's my 2 cents anyway.
Debus
02-25-2007, 11:32 AM
I most certainly do not believe in any sort God for my own reasons, which i won't go into. However, i have no problem whatsoever with anyone who does believe in a God/many Gods. Everyone has to believe in something i suspose, so it's nothing for me to critisize
Christopher
02-25-2007, 12:17 PM
No, I don't.
I just don't believe that I shouldn't praise someone I have no proof of knowing they're real or not. I don't believe in heaven or hell either, it just seems a bit far-fetched to me really lol.
I think there's more beyond life, than just a person who may or may not have created us.
I have totally the same idea about God.
If he'd exist, well, I guess people would've know or been able to proof it in some way.
As far as believing goes, I think everyone should choose what they want to believe as long as they don't bother other people with it.
I like to believe in chance. You know, everything's related to each other and effects each other... seems more logical to me.
(Anya, cool sig and avatar btw. ;))
Janie Jones
02-25-2007, 12:56 PM
You know what? If only the world behaved like the people in this thread. I mean, we have orthodox/ devout followers of religions here, we have atheists, and all kinds of people in between. Yet there isn't a single flame, and everyone is respecting everyone else's view. On the other hand, the real world...*sigh*
El Muerto
02-25-2007, 01:16 PM
Well imo religion has always been a great exuse for creating a haos in the world. Wars are not really waged because of the religion but for profit, people are not killed because of the religion but for profit. You know what I mean?
That's the main reason many people have bad opinion about religion nowadays.
Nope, i don't. But like Mr. Puffy said, i don't mind other people believing in God.
I don't believe in God. Does anybody have any evidence to proove that God has exist?
El Muerto
02-25-2007, 02:32 PM
And do you have any evidence to prove that God doesn't exist? :rolleyes:
If there were evidence it wouldn't be called faith ;)
Janie Jones
02-25-2007, 02:36 PM
It's a belief, and more important than the belief is to repect other people's beliefs. ;)
The jury is still out.
'Yes, but the verdict is in." [/Lame Horatio Caine punchline]
Anybody who watches CSI: Miami knows what I'm talking about.
Sorry for the off-topic post. I couldn't resist. :lol:
Move along.
And do you have any evidence to prove that God doesn't exist? :rolleyes:
The thing is, most people don't believe in something until there's proof that it does exist. I don't believe that the boogeyman or tooth fairy exist, but if there was substantial proof that they do exist and I witnessed them, I'd change my mind. But there's no proof that the boogeyman or tooth fairy exist, and there's no proof that god exists.
Chris Luke
02-25-2007, 03:54 PM
Refer to my previous reply: But nothing like "God is love" counts, it has to be a mystical, conscious deity.
Not saying you're WRONG about God, just saying, for the purpose of this poll, you'd be in the 3rd category.
that's stupid. god doesn't have to be a real person, if you only limit it to being a real person, then you're going to get mostly no's.
who even cares. let people have there personal beliefs, stop critizcing the christians, and stop critizcing the atheists. just let everyone be.
Janie Jones
02-25-2007, 03:58 PM
I kinda agree...because there might be people who DO believe in God, but not as a concious deity...so you kinda have to either make a new category for that or allow people to check the second one, because there are people who believe in god, but not as a person..
that's stupid.
I know that if I had 2 warnings, I sure as hell wouldn't be calling someone else's beliefs "stupid" :rolleyes:
El Muerto
02-25-2007, 04:14 PM
The thing is, most people don't believe in something until there's proof that it does exist. I don't believe that the boogeyman or tooth fairy exist, but if there was substantial proof that they do exist and I witnessed them, I'd change my mind. But there's no proof that the boogeyman or tooth fairy exist, and there's no proof that god exists.
I understand what you're saying, but apparently you don't quite understand how religion works. If you had the substantial evidence you wouldn't have to believe that God exists you would know. And religion is mostly about believing.
Chris Luke
02-25-2007, 04:39 PM
I know that if I had 2 warnings, I sure as hell wouldn't be calling someone else's beliefs "stupid" :rolleyes:
i never said his beliefs were stupid. i'm saying the fact that we have to have a limited discussion about it is stupid.
limited discussion meaning not being allowed to suggest anything that isn't a real human being.
I understand what you're saying, but apparently you don't quite understand how religion works. If you had the substantial evidence you wouldn't have to believe that God exists you would know. And religion is mostly about believing.
But it doesn't make sense to believe in something when there's no proof that it exists; just like you wouldn't believe in the tooth fairy or something like that.
El Muerto
02-25-2007, 05:02 PM
But it doesn't make sense to believe in something when there's no proof that it exists; just like you wouldn't believe in the tooth fairy or something like that.
I guess I used the wrong words.
There is no material proof that I can present to you right now to assure you that God exists. He has proven his existance to me and there's absolutely no way I can show you that.
I'm not really trying to make you change your mind or something, just want to explain to you the way people who believe in God think.
I don't think anyone believes in God just because his parents told him so. I have a lot of friend whose parents believe in God and they don't and vice versa. And also I know a lot of people who changed their mind about the existence of God during their lives.
It's something personal, no one can make you change your mind with words, and that's why I believe topics like this are somewhat pointless. But then again, you can hear point of view from lots of people which can be interesting.
Sorry for the long post, I'm going now to see if there's more whining about the new lp record not coming out soon :lol:
I need material proof, and until I see that, I'll remain an Atheist.
esaul17
02-25-2007, 09:22 PM
that's stupid. god doesn't have to be a real person, if you only limit it to being a real person, then you're going to get mostly no's.
who even cares. let people have there personal beliefs, stop critizcing the christians, and stop critizcing the atheists. just let everyone be.
You see, here is the problem. If you define God as "hope" or "love" or anything like that, then you don't believe in the general definition of God as a creator and such. The point of this topic is to see how many people have that belief. Without this restriction, I could say God is peace, happiness, a fish, or a giant turd and then say "I see a giant turd exists, therefore I believe in God." I am not saying you are wrong if you say God is one of these things, but I wanted to see how many people believed in God as I defined him. To ask how many people believe in a word that can mean anything is utterly pointless, as everyone will read it a different way.
I mean no disrespect to what other people think right now. I simply want to find an answer to a specific question, and beliefs such as God being hope still answer "no" to the question I am looking for.
Also, over 1/2 of the planet (and the large majority of the United States) is Christian. Christian dogma dictates belief in a personal God. There are potentially more "yes"'s to my question then you might think.
Viper62
02-25-2007, 10:10 PM
Nope, Im an Atheist
Misfit Jay
02-25-2007, 10:29 PM
I believe that there is something. Not sure what "it" is, but I do believe.
Rachel
02-25-2007, 10:54 PM
Not too sure.
I always was raised believing in God, and being tossed between Reform Judaism and Jehovah's Witness-ism[?], my view on organized religion was pretty warped.
I tried Wicca, didn't feel it too much. I have alot of Buddhist ideals with Judaic ideals as well. If anything, I'm a Messianic Jew. Look it up.
But, I honestly don't know what to make of God him/her/itself.
Like I don't believe we evolved from like..nanoparticles, but...I don't believe some big dude up in the sky though HOLY SHIT IM GONNA MAKE SOME PEOPLE THAT LOOK LIKE ME *flash of lightning* "go on kiddies, go fuck shit up!"
i don't know what to make of religion. i try not to think about it, because i feel very confused and alone afterwards.
i hope there's something guiding us and we're not just roaming around like a mouse in a fucking maze, looking for its reason there and eventually finding it. i hope we're not some experiment or nature gone wrong. but i don't like the feeling that we're programmed either. i don't know what i believe, honestly.
.Amanda.
02-25-2007, 11:24 PM
Rachel's post seriously amused me and I love it.
Aaaanyway someone earlier mentioned how organized religion leads to arguments and it reminded me of that old George Carlin skit. I don't remember it exactly but it was something along the lines of : "We have fucking wars over who's invisible man in ths sky is better."
Kinda OT but I thought it was funny. :lol:
F-ck Casey
02-25-2007, 11:47 PM
I believe in myself.
Mrwee
02-26-2007, 12:09 AM
Nope..
I hold myself as my own God, and am trying to spend my life in indulgence, because I realize this is the only life we have. No, I don't believe in the Christian God. I know I could debate you for hours on the historicity, origins, etc. That's the most common God, and they do not exist.
I'm a Christian, but I voted the second because I believe there are some BS parts in Christianity that have been changed over time due to people in power (abuses of power, so to say).
I've got no problem with people who don't believe in God. Everyone's got a right to believe what they want, and I wouldn't want to push my beliefs on anyone else and I would hope atheists or agnostics don't push their beliefs on anyone else, either.
SRPSKILPFAN
02-26-2007, 11:16 AM
I'm Ortodox Christian and I believe in God...
Messy Marj
02-26-2007, 01:22 PM
I hold myself as my own God, and am trying to spend my life in indulgence, because I realize this is the only life we have. No, I don't believe in the Christian God. I know I could debate you for hours on the historicity, origins, etc. That's the most common God, and they do not exist.
At first I couldn't really answer this question, but I think you kind of answered it for me. I'm trying to spend my life in the best way I can think of.
Seinfeld
02-26-2007, 02:24 PM
Wow...today I talked to my religion teacher again...she said:
People keep asking if god is real...or if he/she/it even exists...why don't people start asking why some live their lives 'serving' him.without not even 1 response to their prayers? sure, they'll say he's listening and all that crap...but if he existed...wouldn't he tell people to get a fucking life?...I mean...seriously...have these people not heard the word OMNIPOTENT!?...he can serve his own damn self if he exists!
I love talking to her about god....she's fucking hilarious at times...but today she really got me thinking...And now....I'm positive that god does not exist...I mean...(I tried quoting as exact as possible) some kind of a sign...and not just people saying they heard him...but an actual sign he exists...would be the only thing to change my mind
El Muerto
02-26-2007, 03:09 PM
Trent recorded an album in less than 2 years. If that's not a sign I don't know what is.
Messy Marj
02-26-2007, 03:24 PM
I don't see the connection between Trent and God really.
El Muerto
02-26-2007, 03:35 PM
Well it's quite simple. Trent = God ;)
Sorry for the offtopic, move on.
esaul17
02-26-2007, 04:56 PM
If anything, the fact that Trent hasn't been smote DISproves God. Some on Terrible Lie, Heresy, etc.
:D
Misfit Jay
02-27-2007, 01:15 AM
Well this explains it. (http://www.explosm.net/comics/816/)
:lol: I just saw this and figured I share in here.
esaul17
02-27-2007, 01:52 AM
Well this explains it. (http://www.explosm.net/comics/816/)
:lol: I just saw this and figured I share in here.
Ahahahahaha.
That's deism.
Daniel
02-27-2007, 11:00 AM
James. Cameron.
Though it's most likely bullshit.
James. Cameron.
Though it's most likely bullshit.
Most likely. I find it odd that this comes out just shortly after the DaVinci Code and everything when everyone is talking about how Jesus was with Mary and had a child. I believe the last time this happened was when someone found James, Brother of Jesus, somewhere, but we later found out that it was really some guy just chiseling in his house.
pantelija
02-28-2007, 12:54 PM
God is the force which created the Universe, which gave life to materia. It may not have a human form or shape, but we all know it's out there.
If you can create out of oxygen, hydrogen, carbon for an example amoeba then you are The God
Your mental level allows you to or not to believe in God. If your average perception of the God is a bearded person which spits lightnings and cures with one touch then you don't believe in God
And yes, I believe in God
God is the force which created the Universe, which gave life to materia. It may not have a human form or shape, but we all know it's out there.
If you can create out of oxygen, hydrogen, carbon for an example amoeba then you are The God
Who's "we"?
Messy Marj
02-28-2007, 02:20 PM
God is the force which created the Universe, which gave life to materia. It may not have a human form or shape, but we all know it's out there.
If you can create out of oxygen, hydrogen, carbon for an example amoeba then you are The God
Your mental level allows you to or not to believe in God. If your average perception of the God is a bearded person which spits lightnings and cures with one touch then you don't believe in God
And yes, I believe in God
Are you saying that people who don't believe in god are actually..dumb?
pantelija
02-28-2007, 03:33 PM
There are scientists, profesors... highly educated people which do not believe in God. The main reason is that they allways try to prove or deny things regarding this issue.
It has nothing to do with education or inteligence.
Give you a hint:
Isaac Newton materialized gravity. He gave us a formula which explaines this natural phenomenon. So peple can "see" what really gravity is (mathemathicaly)
But there was gravity before and after the formula was brought. :)
Everybody knew what the gravity was, felt it... but none could define it
The Big Bang Theory says that Universe was created from a infinitely small substance, that universe emerged from a tremendously dense and high-energied particle. I am asking how that primal particle was created, what gave it energy....
In my opinion believing in God has nothing to do with religion, instead it is strictly subjective question. I think that one does or may not believe in God, but can not deny it.
I can not prove it exists but you can not prove it doen not.
*I had no intention to insult anybody, so sorry
Thought this was discussion forum where people can debate
Christopher
02-28-2007, 04:08 PM
I saw something on tv the other day, a bald guy told everyone his friend got killed by The Island. Very suspicious. :P
esaul17
02-28-2007, 04:18 PM
There are scientists, profesors... highly educated people which do not believe in God. The main reason is that they allways try to prove or deny things regarding this issue.
It has nothing to do with education or inteligence.
Give you a hint:
Isaac Newton materialized gravity. He gave us a formula which explaines this natural phenomenon. So peple can "see" what really gravity is (mathemathicaly)
But there was gravity before and after the formula was brought. :)
Everybody knew what the gravity was, felt it... but none could define it
The Big Bang Theory says that Universe was created from a infinitely small substance, that universe emerged from a tremendously dense and high-energied particle. I am asking how that primal particle was created, what gave it energy....
In my opinion believing in God has nothing to do with religion, instead it is strictly subjective question. I think that one does or may not believe in God, but can not deny it.
I can not prove it exists but you can not prove it doen not.
*I had no intention to insult anybody, so sorry
Thought this was discussion forum where people can debate
Just because you can't prove it either way doesn't mean it is a 50-50 situation. God has been proven to be logically impossible. He is in the same category as dragons, fairies, and the flying spaghetti monster. There is no proof, but that doesn't mean that he is just as likely to be false as existent. Just like it doesn't mean that dragons are as likely to exist as not.
God existing is not subjective. He either exists or he doesn't. We're either right or wrong. We can never prove which one is true, but the truth still exists.
And your "first cause" or unmoved mover argument is flawed. Even if we said that there had to be a mystical first cause, it would by no means have to be a God. And things like quantum theory explain how we can get something out of nothing, so the "first cause" could be entirely natural. Also, as unlikely as it may be that something natural was the first cause, it is even more unlikely that complex intelligence was present from the start of time. Complex things come into the world late, as shown by evolution.
Also, life has been created in the lab using conditions similar to those present on earth so many years ago. Simply creating a single celled organism isn't enough to make you a God though.
El Muerto
02-28-2007, 04:40 PM
Just because you can't prove it either way doesn't mean it is a 50-50 situation. God has been proven to be logically impossible. He is in the same category as dragons, fairies, and the flying spaghetti monster. There is no proof, but that doesn't mean that he is just as likely to be false as existent. Just like it doesn't mean that dragons are as likely to exist as not.
God existing is not subjective. He either exists or he doesn't. We're either right or wrong. We can never prove which one is true, but the truth still exists.
Are you saying that people who believe in God are actually..dumb?
Christopher
02-28-2007, 05:03 PM
I think what esual17 wants to say, and I agree, is that you can't prove God exists and you can't prove he doesn't either but the chances of him not existing are bigger. Logically thinking that's true.
I do have question, though. Pantelija said the Big Bang Theory is impossible to prove, but it's just the same thing with God.
Why can you believe God has always been there and created everything in 7 days out of nothing and you can't believe small particules evolved into the Earth and everything on it in a very long time?
El Muerto
02-28-2007, 05:09 PM
I think what esual17 wants to say, and I agree, is that you can't prove God exists and you can't prove he doesn't either but the chances of him not existing are bigger. Logically thinking that's true.
How in the world can that be logical?
When people didn't know that everything is made of atoms, the chances of their not existance were bigger?
Or before Europeans found out about America, the chances of its not existance were bigger?
It's everything but logical.
Well, I believe that, knowing the history and origins of almost every major religion out there, none of them are true. That eliminates all of those beliefs in those Gods. Now, as for the intelligent design movement, which is just Christianity's creationism, you cannot prove it. The idea itself proves nothing.
However, it is just as logical to say that we're just a program. You see, with our growing technology, don't you think that in the future we'd be able to program a society that learns from experience and grows and grows and grows? And earns intelligence? Think if a society before us did the same thing, and we're just the result of that. The possibilities are endless, but what my logic and reasoning is telling me is that there is no reason to believe, and that the religions of the world are definitely false. Except the more philosophical ones like Buddhism and Satanism.
esaul17
03-01-2007, 02:44 AM
How in the world can that be logical?
When people didn't know that everything is made of atoms, the chances of their not existance were bigger?
Or before Europeans found out about America, the chances of its not existance were bigger?
It's everything but logical.
Here, you assume that God exists. We don't know the fact of the matter. We just can see how likely the fact seems to be true. Before America was found, it was still 100% in existence. But it wouldn't be logical to just proclaim that America existed with no evidence. Even if you were RIGHT, your train of reasoning was flawed.
If something has no evidence to exist, it is logical to believe that, while it MIGHT exist, it is unlikely. We might be wrong, but the reasoning to reach our conclusion is still logical. And when something actually has to DEFY logic to exist, the chances are lower still.
Now, about the idea of theists being stupid. This is going too far. First, I believe logical and rationality are but one of three streams of "smartness". Arts and ability to memorize things would be the other two (so you have pattern recognition: logic, pattern creation: art, and pattern recollection: memory). Believing in God only deteriorates the first one. Also, you need more than one piece of information to say how logical a person is. Someone could still be a logical genius and believe in God, it would just be dividing there mind into compartments. To believe in God is irrational, and that means it is slightly offensive to one form of intelligence. In short, to believe in God is dumb, but you're not dumb just because you believe in God (far from it).
I don't mean to offend anyone, I am just answering the question. Religious beliefs shouldn't require any more respect than scientific or political ones. If it appears absolutely irrational, I will call it such until someone can make a case to change my mind (please do: I'd love to hear it. No sarcasm intended).
Oh and Zak, I assume you already know this, but Buddhism and Satanism have no God-figures (outside of arguably yourself in the latter, but that doesn't fit the definition of God in this topic).
I do have question, though. Pantelija said the Big Bang Theory is impossible to prove, but it's just the same thing with God.
Why can you believe God has always been there and created everything in 7 days out of nothing and you can't believe small particules evolved into the Earth and everything on it in a very long time?
Just so you know, there IS evidence supporting the Bing Bang Theory. We have traced back where it occurred and such (I think with radioactivity, but I'm not positive there). Regardless, it is an idea logically possible and with at least some proof. God is and has neither. Comparing them is like comparing a boat with a pinhole in it and one with a cannon ball shot through it's side. Neither are perfect, but one is in far better condition then the other.
androidkaita
03-01-2007, 03:01 AM
here's something to think about. If god exists, and I live my life in a bad way, then I might go to hell. If God exists and I live my life in a good way, I will get to go to heaven (or wherever u beleive in) and have "eternal life". But I cant prove god dosnt exist, so if he does, I want to get to heaven so I should live my life in a good way as to not go to hell. And even if he dosnt exist, at least I lived my life in a god way, and helped a lot of people (or whatever you would do in a "good" life).
esaul17
03-01-2007, 03:05 AM
here's something to think about. If god exists, and I live my life in a bad way, then I might go to hell. If God exists and I live my life in a good way, I will get to go to heaven (or wherever u beleive in) and have "eternal life". But I cant prove god dosnt exist, so if he does, I want to get to heaven so I should live my life in a good way as to not go to hell. And even if he dosnt exist, at least I lived my life in a god way, and helped a lot of people (or whatever you would do in a "good" life).
Yeah. But you don't need God to be good. You should be good either way. Unless you mean by being "good" you mean attending church and believing. In that case, why pick the Christian God. Why not Allah, or Thor, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster- they all have the same amount of evidence. That is one problem with the idea of believing "just in case"- you are still likely to have the wrong God. And it is just as likely that a God would encourage logic and rationality, opposed to blind faith.
If you simply meant to be a good person and not kill and such, then I agree with you. But God should play no part in that decision. You are far more moral to be good for the sake of being good, then to do so because your afraid of being punished.
Branden
03-01-2007, 03:06 AM
i do believe in god and in jesus christ.
i believe whole heartedly and love them.
however, there are some things about christianity and the bible that i don't take literally or have some personal dispute with.
here's something to think about. If god exists, and I live my life in a bad way, then I might go to hell. If God exists and I live my life in a good way, I will get to go to heaven (or wherever u beleive in) and have "eternal life". But I cant prove god dosnt exist, so if he does, I want to get to heaven so I should live my life in a good way as to not go to hell. And even if he dosnt exist, at least I lived my life in a god way, and helped a lot of people (or whatever you would do in a "good" life).
Pascal's Wager is lame. Sorry. The concept of what is good from the Bible is a bunch of bullshit. Greed, Lust, Pride, Gluttony, wanting as many material possessions, caring about yourself most importantly, etc. are all things you should completely indulge yourself in.
It seems as though you're still fearing the unknown, and you need to realize that what you should really be doing is satisfying yourself first.
Joeykat
03-10-2007, 10:03 PM
The only time that I personally will believe if God exists is when he comes down and says heylo to everyone *nods*
I used to believe in him when I was little. Liek everytime it rained I used to think 'hmm God is having a shower' or 'God is flushing his toilet' or something like that until I was about 7 when I found out that the tooth fairy didn't exist and also that Santa Claus was most the time your older relatives dressed up (I came to this conclusion when I shut the front door in Santa's face and my Nanny came in rubbing her nose).
I believe in the Big Bang Theory as I enjoyed physics and I believe in evolution all in which the Bible disapproves of.
For all we know, the Bible could have been written by a bunch of stoners who got bored one day...
I'm sorry if I offended some people by my view on this, but everyone has a right to put across their view. I have mine... Now lets see yours :)
here's something to think about. If god exists, and I live my life in a bad way, then I might go to hell. If God exists and I live my life in a good way, I will get to go to heaven (or wherever u beleive in) and have "eternal life". But I cant prove god dosnt exist, so if he does, I want to get to heaven so I should live my life in a good way as to not go to hell. And even if he dosnt exist, at least I lived my life in a god way, and helped a lot of people (or whatever you would do in a "good" life).
No-one is totally sure what a "good life" is... In some parallel universe the "good" in our world could mean bad and the "bad" in our world could mean good.
In all there is no proof of God. But their is scientific evidence of the Big Bang Theory and of Evolution. Where is the fact of God and Jesus and all the other big Religious people (I don't exactly know what terminology to use here... someone help). If God does exist.. Most people are damned to hell anyway because of our materialistic lifestyles and mistreatment of the people under us (thrid world countries etc.)
Another thing that stumped me doing geography... We have First world countries and Thrid world countries, but where are the Second world countries, is that term reserved for the supposed alien civilizations that have not yet been discovered. See yet again we are thinking that our race is superior to others, we are making species of animals extinct under our own noses and classifying our own race.
Sorry if i went off track here, and for double posting, but i missed this post and only realised after i posted the first *blush*
I believe in God, I was raised a Christian, and I haven't seen any reason to divert from those beliefs yet. I do think it's ridiculous to try and force my beliefs on others, if you believe, then you believe, if you don't, then you don't. I try not to get incredibly personal about it.
Ahh yes, the age-old religious debates.
The debating equivalent of a dog chasing its tail.
esaul17
03-16-2007, 06:57 AM
Ahahah, yeah. Tis what happens when one side believes off of faith instead of logic.
Branden
03-16-2007, 10:11 PM
why debate it?
why debate it?
The same reason people debate everything else: to share and discuss opinions.
Branden
03-16-2007, 10:17 PM
yeah, i guess you're right.
i guess i sort of take the word "debate" to mean "argue".
its just sort of a thing that i imply.
and i just don't see the point of arguing about religion.
nevermind buddy.
When it comes to that... what Mark said, basically.
esaul17
03-17-2007, 01:02 AM
yeah, i guess you're right.
i guess i sort of take the word "debate" to mean "argue".
its just sort of a thing that i imply.
and i just don't see the point of arguing about religion.
nevermind buddy.
Well, debate is a tool used to seek truth. If a God did exist, I would want to know of Him. If he didn't, I'd like to be more sure of that too. Debating God allowed us to show how, from a logical perspective, he is impossible.
You can still go on faith. But if you value logic greatly, a debate can show you what is more plausible.
Debate is what allowed atheism to become such an appealing platform. It allows us to think rationally. You will never change the mind of someone who outright rejects logic, but it doesn't mean the debating is useless.
One of the better ways to test if you were wrong, expose yourself to other opinions.
Colonel Sanders
03-18-2007, 03:50 AM
Myself, I don't believe in what the catholics or what other religions call god. It is logical to believe that one essential thing or a single object of existence created what we know as dimensions and what we know as universes. I believe in that. I don't believe in calling it god however. I won't pray to this thing or be forced to. I believe whatever it is started existence and whatever it is will most likely finish existence - possibly an essential cycle to existence. Henceforth the big bang theory and that this event has occurred many times through multiple existences.
If I were to believe in this god, my explanation would be that the god that religions believe in is all around. They state that god exists. To be frank with that statement is imperative to believe that since god exist (in a religion), god is existence. From that point on word the statement arrives - god exist because existence is existing. This statement being from the "isness of is" type of explanation.
im 16 years old and i just ranted like Jeff Goulblum
Version One
03-18-2007, 04:41 AM
I do believe in God, and am Christian. However, I respect the opinions of others, and will not force my beliefs upon anyone.
esaul17
03-18-2007, 06:17 AM
Myself, I don't believe in what the catholics or what other religions call god. It is logical to believe that one essential thing or a single object of existence created what we know as dimensions and what we know as universes. I believe in that. I don't believe in calling it god however. I won't pray to this thing or be forced to. I believe whatever it is started existence and whatever it is will most likely finish existence - possibly an essential cycle to existence. Henceforth the big bang theory and that this event has occurred many times through multiple existences.
I personally never saw a problem with a infinite regression of causes. It always seemed odder to me to imagine a point where everything "began". Also, it has been shown that it is more likely that our universe will expand forever and never retract. So multiple Big Bangs seems unlikely.
I am not fully disagreeing with you, and thought your post was quite interesting. Just adding in my two cents.
We are in a time where we're developing new technologies so quickly. It doesn't seem like a very impossible idea to be able to create a living organism, or program of sorts, with the ability to problem solve. If such and such happens, develop a scenario to get around it. Machines that might be able to solve things on their own. A sort of AI maybe. I definitely don't think it's impossible for us to program.
Michael Crichton wrote a book called Prey that warned about the future of nanotechnology, and the inevitable truth that we are developing technology that could get out of hand. It's logical.
The movie Robots, although a fictional-action-futuristic-movie, I believe shows how one creature can program another creature with actual living characteristics, possibly even emotions.
How does this play in to the God hypothesis? It's just something to think about, but do you think that it's logical that since we're on the edge of creating technology with this power, that we could have been created by a bunch of creatures that have just simply been around longer? It's like a Matrix idea, or a Men in Black example, of us living in a world that's actually much different than anyone thinks.
I'm not saying I believe in this, but doesn't it seem logical? I believe if we could program or produce a living organism like that then there is no reason someone couldn't have done it before us.
no...i don't believe in God...though i still write his name in capital letter :)
esaul17
03-18-2007, 05:35 PM
We are in a time where we're developing new technologies so quickly. It doesn't seem like a very impossible idea to be able to create a living organism, or program of sorts, with the ability to problem solve. If such and such happens, develop a scenario to get around it. Machines that might be able to solve things on their own. A sort of AI maybe. I definitely don't think it's impossible for us to program.
Michael Crichton wrote a book called Prey that warned about the future of nanotechnology, and the inevitable truth that we are developing technology that could get out of hand. It's logical.
The movie Robots, although a fictional-action-futuristic-movie, I believe shows how one creature can program another creature with actual living characteristics, possibly even emotions.
How does this play in to the God hypothesis? It's just something to think about, but do you think that it's logical that since we're on the edge of creating technology with this power, that we could have been created by a bunch of creatures that have just simply been around longer? It's like a Matrix idea, or a Men in Black example, of us living in a world that's actually much different than anyone thinks.
I'm not saying I believe in this, but doesn't it seem logical? I believe if we could program or produce a living organism like that then there is no reason someone couldn't have done it before us.
It isn't IMPOSSIBLE. I just think we would likely see some evidence of our creators. But a Matrix scenario could potentially work.
I don't believe in God. I was raised in a family where noone believe in God, so I kind of never have been believing. I respect all that does believe in a God of some sort that be Buddha, Allah, God or whatever religion they might have though.
"/Shawn08\"
03-19-2007, 02:13 AM
I believe in God to an extent (if that makes sense). I've been raised christian, but to be honest I haven't gone to church or any type of religious gathering/charity thing since i was about 8 or 9. I don't push Christianity on anyone and I have nothing against people who have different religious beliefs.
Stonecold
03-27-2007, 03:21 PM
I'm not a religious guy or anything but...yeah I do believe in God.
mainly because if u looked around you and see all the living creatures and nature and earth itself and the magnificents of the galaxy and everything, u must consider that there's someone who created all this, and I don't believe that life ends after u die, cuz there's good people in life and there's the bad ones...so it's not fair to even thier destiny.
and yes I believe there's heaven and hell, and you'll end up in one of them after u die according to your actions in life.
esaul17
03-27-2007, 03:30 PM
I'm not a religious guy or anything but...yeah I do believe in God.
mainly because if u looked around you and see all the living creatures and nature and earth itself and the magnificents of the galaxy and everything, u must consider that there's someone who created all this, and I don't believe that life ends after u die, cuz there's good people in life and there's the bad ones...so it's not fair to even thier destiny.
and yes I believe there's heaven and hell, and you'll end up in one of them after u die according to your actions in life.
Lots of assumptions there. If something looks designed, it doesn't have to be. Look at evolution for example. There is no proof that destiny or fate exists, and the world doesn't work on "fairness". If you assume it to be fair, you more or less assume there is a God. The world isn't fair, and there is no God.
Stonecold
03-28-2007, 12:19 AM
Lots of assumptions there. If something looks designed, it doesn't have to be. Look at evolution for example. There is no proof that destiny or fate exists, and the world doesn't work on "fairness". If you assume it to be fair, you more or less assume there is a God. The world isn't fair, and there is no God.
well....we'll just have to wait and see bro.
I'm not a religious guy or anything but...yeah I do believe in God.
mainly because if u looked around you and see all the living creatures and nature and earth itself and the magnificents of the galaxy and everything, u must consider that there's someone who created all this, and I don't believe that life ends after u die, cuz there's good people in life and there's the bad ones...so it's not fair to even thier destiny.
and yes I believe there's heaven and hell, and you'll end up in one of them after u die according to your actions in life.
It's our own William Paley.
Do people stop being people in heaven?
esaul17
03-28-2007, 01:59 AM
It's our own William Paley.
Do people stop being people in heaven?
You would think they would have to at least stop being the people they were. I mean, if I was a Christian and my friend/lover/family/etc. went to Hell, I'd be mortified. If I was in heaven and NOT upset, then I would no longer really be ME. God would have changed me (which defeats the idea of free will) or deceived me (which some would feel goes against the idea of an omnibenevolant God).
I honestly think that I wouldn't last at all in heaven. If you're in heaven for eternity, people are going to show their human nature. Christian or not, people never stop sinning, and I wouldn't want to go about with this perfect wannabe Jesus attitude constantly. If I see an attractive girl I have no problem thinking that, and I want things(I don't mean sexual things by that, either). I want possessions is what I mean, and I want to enjoy myself. Lust and sex go together most of the time, I believe, and I wouldn't want to be in a place that doesn't allow that.
Of course, if I was in heaven I would be thinking about all the people who didn't make it into heaven. I wouldn't be able to look God or Jesus in the face without being pissed off out of my mind about their terrible morality, and I wouldn't have fun being around all these uninteresting people. I'd be reminded of all the horrors God committed in the Bible.
esaul17
03-28-2007, 02:22 AM
Yeah. Last place I'd want to be is a place populated entirely by Christians. lol. Nothing against them as individuals, but I disagree with the whole mindset and that which stems from it.
The problem with heaven is that we would lose all of our individuality and free will to become assimilated into what God defined as perfect. You might as well just die, because God seems just to make a "perfect" person to go to heaven in your place anyway. In heaven, we would be freed of all of our humans viced, and be granted all the divine virtues necessary. But then are we really us? Or human at all?
Arhaz
03-31-2007, 03:53 PM
what exists exists.
what doesn't, doesn't.
who cares what we believe?
we do.
esaul17
03-31-2007, 10:01 PM
Of course. But since we can't KNOW either way, all be have is a belief on this matter.
But you answered it yourself, we care what we believe. Hence this topic :).
Well, and especially if you're going to basically sacrifice your entire life to a set of principals that come with believing in a God and an afterlife. If you happen to be a Christian you're supposed to thrive to be like Jesus, and, well, you should be pretty confident that's what you believe is true if you're going to basically set aside your entire life for that.
Urantia Girl
04-02-2007, 12:35 AM
I do believe in God and I am always working my way up to find a better divine understanding of this world around me. I have turned to many of those new age books, attended many different churches of different parishes, all to find a specific purpose. At one point I was an atheist, then agnostic, and now....now I don't know. I have realized that there is indeed a higher being. I have respect for all people of different religions. I just enjoy reading all these sacred texts and interpreting them to fit me and my soul. Therefore I chose that yes, I do believe in God but do not belong to a specific dogma. Maybe I will someday. My spirit and Thought Adjuster changes just as much as anything else.
I have recently taken a liking into this book called The Urantia Book. (Notice the user name) and have felt a better understanding of the world and worlds to come. Basically this book isn't a how-to book on how to find yourself and become an (insert religion here) but rather it is just an outlet. Simply an outlet. It explains the human being in relation to the First Source and Center, being either God or whomever- just the grand and diving higher being.
48virtues
04-02-2007, 03:29 PM
judaism all the way, its the truth!
Dylan
04-02-2007, 06:41 PM
yea , i believe in god. why? look , i thank god and i curse god. why do we do it? because he/she is the maker of "the world of living". not the world himself. but that's my belief.. ; )
Arlene
04-09-2007, 04:57 AM
Ive questioned it recently, but not after today in church. I actually felt his presence and i just broke down in church and started sobbing, and a stranger at the church came up to me and said to me "would you like me to pray for you?" and i just hugged her and cried on her shoulder. Its amazing to feel something like this..
Ive questioned it recently, but not after today in church. I actually felt his presence and i just broke down in church and started sobbing, and a stranger at the church came up to me and said to me "would you like me to pray for you?" and i just hugged her and cried on her shoulder. Its amazing to feel something like this..
It is amazing, sure, but it's definitely not the presence of God. I've felt it before, too, I don't think the feeling of someone doing this with you would wow any psychologist.
Chrono
04-09-2007, 03:21 PM
100% agnostic.
Feenix
04-09-2007, 03:41 PM
There's one question I'd like to put forward as a very strong atheist.
See, i've had debate after debate about whether "god" exists or not, and a while ago it struck me that I didn't need to use an argument to try and prove that "god" doesn't exist. All I needed to do was prove that he wasn't worth worship.
I'll explain, see, god is all powerful, all loving etc. and yet, with all the terrible things that go on in the world, he does nothing, yes? Well, I have no doubt you've heard someone say that before, and the simple response is, "oh, god gave us free will to make our own decisions and mistakes." Okay, quite a catch 22 for the atheists cause there's really nothing you can say to that, except this maybe; If god is all powerful, and has the ability to right all the wrongs of the world instantly, and he doesn't, because he'd rather we all kill ourselves, because that was our choice. Well then, why in the hell would I want to worship him? If he can cure all diseases, stop famine, prevent natural disasters, stop babies dying every single day. If he can stop all that, and make the world perfect, but choses not to, because it's somehow our responsibility, well then I don't want to worship him.
I'll use an example as well. Say I created a bunch of clones, and built a massive environment for them to live in. And I could control anything in that environment, and I can see it all with hidden cameras. What if, one day I see one of my subjects walking into a volcano I built. He doesn't know what it his, and he decides to jump in. Assume I could stop it happening, and save this man's life, but didn't. Would that make me worthy of devotion from my subjects? Imagine I then had the audacity after this event to talk to my subjects from the heavens, and tell them that I created them, and the world they live in, and so they must worship me. Why should they? I wouldn't be a guardian to them, i'd just be some sick scientist performing some twisted experiment. In my view, that's what god is. He can help, but doesn't.
have you ever lost someone you loved? Through accident or illness? Well, god could've stopped that. But he didn't. Why? "Free will". Well, imagine for a second what this world would be like without so called "free will", if god decided to help any time anything went wrong. If someone was to get hit by a car, he'd save them, nobody would come off with a scratch. Nobody would ever have to experience pain. Society would be a utopia, and with control and guidance from god, everything would be perfect. Wouldn't that be amazing?
So, whether god exists. That's hard to argue. But whether I should worship a being that doesn't maintain his creation, well... that's easy.
There's one question I'd like to put forward as a very strong atheist.
See, i've had debate after debate about whether "god" exists or not, and a while ago it struck me that I didn't need to use an argument to try and prove that "god" doesn't exist. All I needed to do was prove that he wasn't worth worship.
I'll explain, see, god is all powerful, all loving etc. and yet, with all the terrible things that go on in the world, he does nothing, yes? Well, I have no doubt you've heard someone say that before, and the simple response is, "oh, god gave us free will to make our own decisions and mistakes." Okay, quite a catch 22 for the atheists cause there's really nothing you can say to that, except this maybe; If god is all powerful, and has the ability to right all the wrongs of the world instantly, and he doesn't, because he'd rather we all kill ourselves, because that was our choice. Well then, why in the hell would I want to worship him? If he can cure all diseases, stop famine, prevent natural disasters, stop babies dying every single day. If he can stop all that, and make the world perfect, but choses not to, because it's somehow our responsibility, well then I don't want to worship him.
I'll use an example as well. Say I created a bunch of clones, and built a massive environment for them to live in. And I could control anything in that environment, and I can see it all with hidden cameras. What if, one day I see one of my subjects walking into a volcano I built. He doesn't know what it his, and he decides to jump in. Assume I could stop it happening, and save this man's life, but didn't. Would that make me worthy of devotion from my subjects? Imagine I then had the audacity after this event to talk to my subjects from the heavens, and tell them that I created them, and the world they live in, and so they must worship me. Why should they? I wouldn't be a guardian to them, i'd just be some sick scientist performing some twisted experiment. In my view, that's what god is. He can help, but doesn't.
have you ever lost someone you loved? Through accident or illness? Well, god could've stopped that. But he didn't. Why? "Free will". Well, imagine for a second what this world would be like without so called "free will", if god decided to help any time anything went wrong. If someone was to get hit by a car, he'd save them, nobody would come off with a scratch. Nobody would ever have to experience pain. Society would be a utopia, and with control and guidance from god, everything would be perfect. Wouldn't that be amazing?
So, whether god exists. That's hard to argue. But whether I should worship a being that doesn't maintain his creation, well... that's easy.
CHRISTIAN COUNTERARGUMENT:
God originally wanted it to be that way, but we are the ones who chose to be separated from him when we ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
It's a terrible argument, but Christians will believe they walk all over you with it.
However, I agree with what you're saying, and I do think that's one of the best arguments against God, aside from just quoting scriptures themselves.(Like the bears mauling the kids for calling a prophet 'baldy', and the killing of a man under God's order because he was picking up sticks in the forest on the Sabbath)
esaul17
04-09-2007, 04:36 PM
The odd thing is, people say there is no paradise without free will.
Then they say God gives us free will.
Then they say heaven is paradise.
So is there no free will in heaven?
If it is truly heaven, shouldn't there be free will?
Feenix
04-09-2007, 04:42 PM
CHRISTIAN COUNTERARGUMENT:
God originally wanted it to be that way, but we are the ones who chose to be separated from him when we ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Okay, thanks for that. I'll show how that argument is incredibly flawed. To paraphrase the brilliant comedian Ricky Gervais;
"Why did god put the snake there in the first place?
Or the tree, one or the other, I mean, it was an accident waiting to happen.
Where was he by the way when this was happening?
He's meant to be everywhere so when the snake came up to Eve why didn't he just go "shutup, shutup, shutup, don't listen"
Or why didn't he just at the start go,
"Eve, I wont lie. If you eat the apple, it will kill you, oh and by the way, if a snake comes and talks to you, he's a lying bastard".
And so we see god could just as easily have stopped that from happening but didn't. It's a pathetic argument with no logical premise.
Christopher
04-09-2007, 04:44 PM
The odd thing is, people say there is no paradise without free will.
Then they say God gives us free will.
Then they say heaven is paradise.
So is there no free will in heaven?
If it is truly heaven, shouldn't there be free will?
Very good point. And I think that's one hell of a scary thought for people who actually believe in Heaven and Hell.
Can you imagine how it would be like if all people in Heaven would have no free will, they'd walk, talk, live all in the same way.
It's would be one fake monotone place.
Okay, thanks for that. I'll show how that argument is incredibly flawed. To paraphrase the brilliant comedian Ricky Gervais;
"Why did god put the snake there in the first place?
Or the tree, one or the other, I mean, it was an accident waiting to happen.
Where was he by the way when this was happening?
He's meant to be everywhere so when the snake came up to Eve why didn't he just go "shutup, shutup, shutup, don't listen"
Or why didn't he just at the start go,
"Eve, I wont lie. If you eat the apple, it will kill you, oh and by the way, if a snake comes and talks to you, he's a lying bastard".
And so we see god could just as easily have stopped that from happening but didn't. It's a pathetic argument with no logical premise.
I posted that in Random Thoughts the other day. :lol:
However, they would say that the point of it was that man had the choice of either being with God or separation from God, and he left it up to them to decide. Then they decided they'd take it upon themselves and eat from the tree.
Feenix
04-09-2007, 05:16 PM
No but you see god created man and manufactured a situation in which Eve would eat the apple. There was no choice involved in my opinion. If god is all knowing, as christians think he is, then he would have known after putting everything into place that Eve would chose to eat the apple.
And besides, he didn't stop communicating with us then, did he? The whole old testament is full of god talking to people. There just seems to be some random point at which he stops all of a sudden.
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