My journey

[Zak]

I don't know if anybody will really care about what I have to say. I know that alot of people have their beliefs and have firm grounds on where they stand, but please read what I have to say first.

I was a Christian for a long time in my early childhood. It was simply because I was blindly following a religion that everyone around me was believing. I had no reason to believe it was false. As a kid you believe in anything. You believe in Santa, you believe in the Easter Bunny, you believe in God and Jesus. It's just how everything works. If your parents are believers, you believe.

It wasn't until I was in my teens that I started to turn away from "God" and "Jesus", the supposed characters that had taught me good and bad when I was in Sunday School, and told me stories about a man being saved in a lions den.

Religion started to look very funny to me. I would attend youth group, and watch the people who were singing loudly and raising their hands. They looks rediculous. It seemed as though they were blindly following something that they just thought was true out of tradition.

I started to look into more atheist ideas. I didn't want to just choose to believe in something, I wanted the hard facts and evidence to back up everything I was going into.

One of the big things that had shaken the foundations of my beliefs in Christianity was my Biology course in high school. It seems apparant to me that with the evidence we have to support the Darwinian theory, and evolution and sorts, that it just simply overruled Christianity in my head. It made it seem like, with science now, we can throw away all of God and Jesus away.

But I didn't stop looking. I went to my Pastor with my questions, and I had alot of them. I wanted to know why he actually believed in what he did. I had been told by many many atheists that the only evidence we have to support that Jesus actually performed his miracles was the Bible, and I figured if the only way to know if Jesus actually did that stuff is by just putting faith in it, I think it's not as easy to follow.

But what I found was amazing. The evidence for design, the evidence for Jesus. Even very famous, well-known scientists know that it all points there. Thousands and thousands of scientists are now trying to get the things taught about Darwinism thrown out of the school. Not because they are Christians and want their beliefs taught, most of them pobably aren't anyway, but because the facts being taught about Darwinism are simply false. The embryo comparison, the cavemen, the common ancestor theory, natural selection, and, even the Big Bang theory, are being proven wrong by science itself. Don't take my word for it, take the scientists.

Jonathan Wells, a leading scientist and author of the bestselling book "Icons of Evolution", stated:
"I believe science is pointing strongly toward design. To me, as a scientist, the development of an embryo cries out, "Design!" The Cambrian explosion--the sudden appearance of complex life, with no evidence of ancestors--is more consistent with design than evolution. Homology, in my opinion, is more compatible with design. The origin of life certainly cries out for a designer. None of these things make as much sense from a Darwinian perspective as they do from a design perspective.

When he was questioned by an atheist skeptic, who asked: "Let me get this straight. You're not merely saying that the evidence for evolution is weak and therefore there must be an intelligent designer. You're suggesting there is also affirmative evidence for a designer?"

He replied, "I am. However, the two are connected, because one of the main functions of Darwinian theory is to try to make design unnecessary. This is what you experienced as you became an atheist. This is what I experienced. So showing the arguments for evolution are weak certainly opens the door to design. And then when you analyze all of the most current affirmative evidence from cosmology, physics, astronomy, biology, and so forth--well, I think you'll discover that the positive case for an intelligent designer becomes absolutely compelling."

By the way, Allan Rex Sandage, the greatest observational cosmologist in the world--who has deciphered the secrets of the stars, plumbed the mysteries of quasars, revealed the age of globular clusters, pinpointed the distances of remote galaxies, and quantified the universe's expansion through his work at the Mount Wilson and Palomar observatories stated: "The Big Bang was a supernatural event that cannot be explained within the realm of physics as we know it. Science had taken us to the First Event, but it can't take us further to the First Cause. The sudden emergence of matter, space, time, and energy pointed to the need for some kind of transcendence."

It makes me think.

Did He Resurrect?

One of the foundations of Christianity, well, basically the whole thing, is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Without this, the whole Christian religion would be no more. But did it even actually happen? I wasn't really sure. Then I looked into the evidence.

It is written by many historians, and is an established fact, that Jesus actually lived. It is also known that he was crucified, and that he died. The New Testament description of his death is very medically accurate, which is very suprising for the time it was written, and who it was written by.

It is known that after he died, it was requested that he was put in a tomb, and that his body ended up mysteriously disappearing from the tomb. This is known because Jews also knew this was true, and they claimed that one of the Christians had stolen the body.

But which is true? Did some stupid crazy Christian steal Jesus' body? Or did he resurrect?

Well, lets look at these things.

Jesus showed himself to a couple hundred people, who all claim to have seen him. Josephus, a Jewish historian, wrote that Jesus did resurrect.

One of the biggest testimonies is that if Jesus wouldn't have resurrected, everyone would have lost hope. Now, I would think that if you wanted to believe someone resurrected when they didn't, more power to you, but the fact is that all of these disciples, except one, I believe, were tortured and killed for their beliefs.

If I had a buddy of mine who told me he was going to resurrect in three days after he died, and he didn't, I wouldn't believe him at all. If someone put a gun to my head and said "Did he resurrect or not?" I would tell them he didn't. If someone said they were going to torture my wife and kids to death, and then kill me, but wouldn't if I told them my friend didn't resurrect, I would tell them he didn't.

Yet none of the people who saw Jesus denied their beliefs. I mean, how could you if you knew it was true?

Learning all of this really made me think. I'm sorry I couldn't explain everything I had found. I think some of it sums it up. If you want to learn more, you should read the book "The Case For A Creator". It's a book where an atheist interviews scientists to get the hard facts about everything.

And this is where I have come in my journey. I want anyone with an open mind to respond. Please don't disregard me as a religious freak. I'm certainly not, and I'm certainly leaving my mind open to all of the possibilities. Just, right now, the possibility seems evident that there is an intelligent designer, and Jesus really did resurrect.

[Evil Angel]

well i'm an atheist but i do believe that jesus existed but only as a normal human being who encouraged people to lead better lives.But i really think that the "miracles" are crap

[Dean]

I honestly believe that, somewhere, there is an omnipotent being that had a hand in creating life. I agree with you in that sense, but whether it was the Christian God, or any other God for that matter, I don't know.

[Janie Jones]

See, this may be too deep for me and shit, but for me, I agree with Dean. I think soem things are too perfect to have happened by chance, and if you keep asking why, you can only get a plausible scientific answer this far. But I certainly don't believe in the son of god, or Jesus or anything like that. True, perhaps he was a great man, andperhaps some miracles did happen. But not God, and certainly not the omnpotent power...naming what power it is, determining it's sex, form, whatever, is perhaps man's biggest stupidity thus far. See how many people have been killed in a battle to determine wether that this hypothetical (thusfar) god is called Allah or Ram. Which is why I respect buddism. It doesn't focus on a god (though some claim ?Buddha was a reincarnation of one), but more like a philosophy. Philosophies behind religions good, getting more detailed than that, bad. Don't people realize, by giving this power or whatever, a name, sex, form, etc, you are making him a man? Or a magician?

[Seinfeld]

I agree on some omnipotent being existing...mainly because the most things that are proven scientificly can also be disproven...but...somehow...I don't really think there's a right or wrong at this point...maybe atheists are wrong and the christians just happened to intuitively know that they are believing in the right thing... and the other way around...

Great...now I'm all confuzzled....I think I should stop thinking V_V

someone else know what I mean or am I just talking to the wall?

[Messy Marj]

I agree on some omnipotent being existing...mainly because the most things that are proven scientificly can also be disproven...but...somehow...I don't really think there's a right or wrong at this point...maybe atheists are wrong and the christians just happened to intuitively know that they are believing in the right thing... and the other way around...

Great...now I'm all confuzzled....I think I should stop thinking V_V

someone else know what I mean or am I just talking to the wall?
I get what you mean.

I always keep distance from this subject because you really can't prove it, unless you've been dead and back again.

I guess the only way to know it, is to die but then again, you'll have noone to tell it to <.<

I will shut up now.

[Seinfeld]

I get what you mean.

I always keep distance from this subject because you really can't prove it, unless you've been dead and back again.

I guess the only way to know it, is to die but then again, you'll have noone to tell it to <.<

I will shut up now.

Why shut up?...I think you made your point quite clear O_o

[Messy Marj]

Yah..but I'm not making alot of sense :lol:

[Seinfeld]

Yah..but I'm not making alot of sense :lol:

either that or you just want to make it look like you aren't... :P

[Messy Marj]

Shush :P

[Seinfeld]

:shocked: OMG....you....just....shushed me...*sits in corner and cries* :sad:

[Zak]

I've been most recently studying about Genesis and the scientific proof about it. I'm finding it crazy that a book over 3,300 years old is still accurate on alot of our most recent findings.

[Evil Angel]

I've been most recently studying about Genesis and the scientific proof about it. I'm finding it crazy that a book over 3,300 years old is still accurate on alot of our most recent findings.


so you are saying that the miracles are true??????

[Seinfeld]

so you are saying that the miracles are true??????

WHOAH! It just got interesting! :blink:

[Zak]

so you are saying that the miracles are true??????


I'm saying it's well documented that some of them are true. It's not hard to document that a medically established blind person can now see. You can't prove all of them are real, however. There are tons of supposed miracles going on on the television Christian channels all of the time that I think are full of it. Like people who go and say they're posessed and then they smack them with a Bible and they're healed. Alot of it is based on whether or not you're going to believe what history tells you. The miracle of the resurrection is well documented.

The big problem with the resurrection is that people argue if the body was stolen or he really did resurrect. Well, if 500 people say they saw the same thing, and the apostles died for what they believed in, none of them denying Jesus after they saw him again, you have to use your sense. Are all of these people going to go to their death and watch their families being tortured if it didn't even really happen? I know that I wouldn't easily offer my wife and children to be brutally murdered in front of me to keep a lie going.

[NurcX]

I am Atheist, ive never belived in god, ive never had any facts about him from anyone. Until the day i recive some, ill stay an atheist, maybe there was a god, and he isnt around anymore.. this is a theory, dont flame me on an idea..

[Zak]

I am Atheist, ive never belived in god, ive never had any facts about him from anyone. Until the day i recive some, ill stay an atheist, maybe there was a god, and he isnt around anymore.. this is a theory, dont flame me on an idea..


I don't know why you'd be flamed because of that. I just know that the large amount of research I've done on the subject has brought me to the facts that I think really makes it hard to beleive he's not real. Especially my most recent study of Genesis.

I've read tons and tons of atheist points, Creationist points, Scientist points, read books and books on the subject, looked at many debates between the two opposing sides, and the conclusion I have come to is that there is a God.

After I established that I wanted to look into research of why believe Christianity, since, of course, that isn't the only religion that believes in God. I think the evidence supporting Christianity is overwhelming, and makes me believe that it's definitely right.

But I've never been someone who will just blindly follow things. I'm constantly thinking about things, and I've always wondered how a God figure could watch all of this hate in the world.

One example I used to use at the church I attended, that I brought up in my Sunday school is this one:

Let's say I'm God, and I have just had a baby. So, it's something I have created, like God supposedly created us. Next, I take that baby, and I slowly lower it into fire, sitting back and watching it being terribly tortured, but I don't do anything about it. Would you say I'm a very 'loving' God? I wouldn't say so.

But isn't that what God is doing to the tons of innocent people who get cancer? Or the innocent people who die in war, or car accidents? All of those things that the people didn't really deserve, God is sitting back and watching it all happen, when he could easily stop it all.

I guess some of them fall into the category of free will, but those innocent people dying from cancer that just got it because they were born that way, why? Something I still don't understand, but through my research I've come to believe that God is very real.

According to the Bible it happens because it's all in his plan and he sees something greater past it. I don't know. It's really sad to me.

[mathew51b]

I've just read through all the posts in the thread, and it has made me think. Its actually made me want to look into Religion, especially Christianity more, as then I can make my decision.

I used to be a Christian, with my mum, my dad was strictly unreligious. I never enjoyed church and didnt really believe in God. I had no reason to.

Then recently I have been thinking about it. The night after my grandad died my brother and cousin (who were sleeping in the same room) claim to have seen my grandad standing tall in the doorway, wave, then walk away.

That made me wonder whether there is afterlife...angels...or something more. After that I realised, 'What if there is a God?'

After 2 years of extensive Religious Studies, with a large section on 'God and the World' and 'Religion and Suffering'. It brought up what is called the 'inconsistent triad' (or triangle). It has different things at each corner. One corner has 'God Is Omnipotent', second corner being 'God Is Omnibenevolent' and the third being 'Suffering Exists (or something along the lines of suffering). If God is all powerful they would be able to stop suffering and bad things, if God was all loving they would want to prevent suffering...yet suffering exists.

That might you help you come to a conclusion about...I have come to the conclusion that either; to have good there must be evil, or even as a test to them or other people, as in how other people deal with the situation and help will determine their outcome.

Also, going back a bit, just to give my general opinion on Christianity at the moment. I believe in God, I just feel there is something more...superior. I feel that He/She has created all...life...but also 'The Big Bang', like scientists are saying, its too perfect to have happened on its own.

I think I have waffled a lot, and linked to previously points too much, but this was more a way of helping me make a decision about God and religion.

[Anthony.]

I've been most recently studying about Genesis and the scientific proof about it. I'm finding it crazy that a book over 3,300 years old is still accurate on alot of our most recent findings.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5f/Genesis_Group.jpg

GENESIS!!!

Okay, I'm outta here.

[Zak]

The only problem I can encounter with Christianity and God right now is the fact that we know about apes evolving into human. It's shown through the fossil record. This is my biggest question. According to the Biblical time chart, the creation of the earth was 15 billion years ago, and then from Adam on it was almost 5.5 thousand years ago. The problem I find with this is that we've found the stone tools that the Neanderthals used 50 thousand years ago. It doesn't add up, and this is science against a belief. This can be tested, as well. This is the only thing troubling me at the moment. Maybe they were just animals that were really really close to us? Maybe? Maybe it was evolution? Who knows, really, but right now that's the only evidence I can find against it. Other than that it all points towards God and Christianity.

I'm not just saying "Oh, it's a little thing and the rest is pointing to it so it doesn't really matter." No, this is a huge piece of evidence and I'm definitely going to look into it more.

[Messy Marj]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5f/Genesis_Group.jpg

GENESIS!!!

Okay, I'm outta here.
:lol:!

[越南]

I think making comparisons about science to christianity wont get you anywhere. to get to a better understanding about the creation of life and if there is a superior being, we should look upon other religions besides christianity. Perhaps there may be a connection between all the different religions.

But as far as my views for 'God', i think that if there was a designer or a superior being, they were just meant for the creation of all the things.I dont think that they are responsible for what happens after creation.

Its like being a mother of a newborn child, you have created life but have no absolute control of what happens to the baby after birth. You can try to lead that being to the right path, (religions were created to do that) but you have no control over what happens to it over time.

But my thoughts about people being born with defects (cancer,diseases,etc) i think that that person was born for a reason. To make everyone around be a better person. Thats why people created programs and such to help. Think about it, if we were all created equally and perfect wouldnt it make us lesser of a being? We would not have sympathy and compassion towards other people that suffer.

As for religion, I think that every single of them werent created to make us believe in one thing/being but to set the standards for helping us be better people in life. Maybe we're looking at some religions in the wrong way..

I know theres alot of flaws about my random ideas, but its all i can reach up to at this point.

[Zak]

Well you look at things like the Cambrian explosion and the fact that a book over 3,300 years old knows all of these scientific findings from as late as the late 1900's. That's what I find very mindblowing.

The only flaw I see with this, however, is the fact that humans were created around 4004b.c., according to the Bible. That is when civilization started coming up, but there were people like the Neanderthals in the Ice Age and 50,000 years ago using stone tools. Are those people? Or are they weird apes that are really really like us?

It's a subject that fascinates me alot. I'll probably be studying it for a long time.

[NurcX]

I think there was possibly a god at the start, who created the world in 7 days, like wrote in the bible. But, i struggle at great lenghts to see a chance of him still being around. Ive never seen him, see anything he might have done. Or it least, i think i havent..

[Zak]

I think there was possibly a god at the start, who created the world in 7 days

The 6 days of creation aren't literally 6 days. We can find out the actual time of these 6 days by studying the time without an earthly perspective, and done correctly you get about 15 3/4 Billion years, which goes along with the Bible and science.

That is why the evolution of man is the only problem that I conclude with. Everything else I see adds up perfectly, but this doesn't.

Without a god, though, what is the purpose of man? What happens when we die? And if we just....stop living completely, what're we supposed to do? I guess we would never really know for sure if we just end up dying, but it certainly is a bummer if we all came to the conclusion that there is nothing after this.

[Seinfeld]

I sometimes think we're just an excperimen
t

[NurcX]

What if we just evolved to live, and reproduce? maybe we have no real purpose.. i cant thing of a decent one, we serve..

[Seinfeld]

...good point...much better than mine ^_^

[Zak]

What if we just evolved to live, and reproduce? maybe we have no real purpose.. i cant thing of a decent one, we serve..

Serve whom? The world?

[NurcX]

Serve a purpose..

[Zak]

But we can't have a purpose if there is no reason for us to be living in the first place.

Anyway, I've studied the hominid and early human things, and looked in the Bible along with asking professionals about it, and the hominids don't seem to contradict the Bible.

It'd be too long to explain it all, but if you look for the answers you can find them. I did.

[NurcX]

But we can't have a purpose if there is no reason for us to be living in the first place.

Anyway, I've studied the hominid and early human things, and looked in the Bible along with asking professionals about it, and the hominids don't seem to contradict the Bible.

It'd be too long to explain it all, but if you look for the answers you can find them. I did.

My point exactly.. We have no purpose, no point in exisitance, we just evolved here by coincedence..and lucky enought, we learnt to survive, and reproduce.. so there is no real reason for us or anything.. but we are he from evalution.. and went planned by anyone or anything (aka God)

[|CHRYSALIS of DEJECTION|]

I sometimes think we're just an excperimen
t

I think that every thing is just planned from before, and we're just following the path without having much of an option. I dont think i make much sense here...but look at it this way everything u are about to do, has already been done by u at a certain point of time, so basically ur gonna have 2 do the same thing again without having a choice. wateva dat means!!! phewww:blink:
* drinks a glass of water and passes away *

[Dean]

Does anyone else think it's plausible that humankind was genetically created by aliens in order for them to study us, like we do with bacteria in petri dishes? Before you dismiss me as a total nutter, think about it.

[Seinfeld]

Does anyone else think it's plausible that humankind was genetically created by aliens in order for them to study us, like we do with bacteria in petri dishes? Before you dismiss me as a total nutter, think about it.

yeah....but....what purpose would they have?...destroy?

[NurcX]

Experiments, its not a bad theory, ive heard lots very similar, just not with aliens, ive heard a theory about life being a computer game, with sum1 playing us..lol..

[Seinfeld]

Experiments, its not a bad theory, ive heard lots very similar, just not with aliens, ive heard a theory about life being a computer game, with sum1 playing us..lol..

Yet again...with what purpose?...

[The Doctor]

Does everything need a purpose? Not necessarily. Sometimes things are not always meant to happen with a purpose or reason, but they do.

[Seinfeld]

my point is nothing has a real purpose if you go all the way from point A to point B

[Zak]

Does anyone else think it's plausible that humankind was genetically created by aliens in order for them to study us, like we do with bacteria in petri dishes? Before you dismiss me as a total nutter, think about it.


And that's why we have UFO sightings. It's them!

[NurcX]

Our purpose is somthign elses experiment.. !

[Zak]

What if there's a planet far far away that's pissed off at us because of our morals and decide to bomb us without us knowing?

[Evil Angel]

What if there's a planet far far away that's pissed off at us because of our morals and decide to bomb us without us knowing?
Huh????!!!!!!

[Zak]

Huh????!!!!!!

Like some super religious planet who looks at us and they're like: "Look at them with their PBS and Noggin! We have to rid of this disgrace to our universe!" And they decide to bomb us, and we wouldn't even know what was coming because we don't even know who they are.

[NurcX]

You wopuld think we might have an idea if we were currently getting bombed..

[Zak]

You wopuld think we might have an idea if we were currently getting bombed..


I don't know what you mean. If the bomb came from space and we saw it coming towards us, I don't know how we would have an idea.

[Evil Angel]

Superman will save us!!! :)

[Dean]

And that's why we have UFO sightings. It's them!
I hope you weren't being sarcastic, because that's actually plausible in my opinion.

[Evil Angel]

Zak have you lost it??i mean UFOs and alien attacks sound like sci-fi movies to me

[NurcX]

Im liking the superman theory at the moment..

[Zak]

I hope you weren't being sarcastic, because that's actually plausible in my opinion.

I wasn't being sarcastic, and I don't think it's a nutter theory, either.

Something that really bothers me today, though, is the fact that tons of people say Christians are morons and science all around them is proving it wrong, when it's more so supporting it.

While I think a toooooooooooooooon of Christians nowadays are hypocritical psycho's, I don't think that having faith in the Bible and following the morals Jesus taught is stupid at all, and tons of people seem to say that. You can't really go anywhere without seeing "Stupid Christians..." or "I hate Christians...they're always doing stuff like this."

I am a Christian, and I don't have a problem with gay marriage, abortion rights, teaching evolution in schools, etc. like alot of Christians do. I think that it should all be a choice and you're a Christian and don't agree with gay marriage or abortion: Don't do it. But don't go around shoving your beliefs down everyones throats. You're just turning people away from the religion.

[Dean]

I don't really have a problem with Christianity except the really conservative branches. I was christened a protestant but I don't really consider myself one because I rarely go to church or pray or anything like that, but I do believe in God, or a god.

[Neil]

Until very recently, hundreds of people thought David Copperfield could fly.

Millions of greeks believed that gods controlled their world.

etc etc.

Get my point?

---------------------------------------------------------

My take on christianity.

It really boils down to this. If you do what they tell you, and follow their lead, very good things will happen to you (heaven). If you're don't do what they say, you goto a terrible terrible place (hell)

I believe that almost all religions are simply a tool for mass control.

[Christopher]

Zak have you lost it??i mean UFOs and alien attacks sound like sci-fi movies to me

I'd rather believe in UFO's, cte than in God but that's just my opinion.

@Neil: I think you're right about that religions being a tool for mass control.

There were always smarter (or more powerfull) people than others on this earth who tried to manipulate others.

[Evil Angel]

i don't believe in god nor do i believe in UFOs.

i agree with neil too.Religions across the world advocate that God saves people in times of need.Total crap.Where is god to help people when inhuman acts of terrorism kill people across the globe?Where was god when lakhs of people died in the tsunami in 2004?these questions plus some related to my personal life made me give up roman catholicism and made me an atheist.

and know what?i'm happier now as i have no expectation from some divine being above.I lead my own life in accordance with the rules and principals we have to follow in a civilised society.

[Dean]

i agree with neil too.Religions across the world advocate that God saves people in times of need.Total crap.
No. Most religions say that their god(s) put(s) people through hardship to make them stronger and to bring out the best in others, and that's especially the case with Catholicism. You couldn't have been much of one in the first place if you didn't know that.

[Evil Angel]

No. Most religions say that their god(s) put(s) people through hardship to make them stronger and to bring out the best in others, and that's especially the case with Catholicism. You couldn't have been much of one in the first place if you didn't know that.


you are right i wasn't. iwas rather forced to by my parents.was only 2 months old when i was baptised so i couldn't protest.

[Zak]

Until very recently, hundreds of people thought David Copperfield could fly.

Millions of greeks believed that gods controlled their world.

etc etc.

Get my point?

---------------------------------------------------------

My take on christianity.

It really boils down to this. If you do what they tell you, and follow their lead, very good things will happen to you (heaven). If you're don't do what they say, you goto a terrible terrible place (hell)

I believe that almost all religions are simply a tool for mass control.

I guess. I used to look at that point alot when I was an atheist/skeptic. But what is still good evidence is that with all of our most recent scientific findings, Genesis still proves to be correct on all of our scientific finds. Keep in mind that it's over 3,300 years old, and those other religions can be proven wrong, while Christianity still stands strong.

What makes me frustrated are Creationists who want to argue evolution isn't true, and all of these things. It's just making us look like fools.

[Todd]

I guess. I used to look at that point alot when I was an atheist/skeptic. But what is still good evidence is that with all of our most recent scientific findings, Genesis still proves to be correct on all of our scientific finds. Keep in mind that it's over 3,300 years old, and those other religions can be proven wrong, while Christianity still stands strong.

What makes me frustrated are Creationists who want to argue evolution isn't true, and all of these things. It's just making us look like fools.


Genesis is a load of unscientific bullshit along with the rest of the bible.

Several things wrong with Genesis:

First, god created day and night. The sun was created several days after he created day and night. Any idiot with a brain knows that the reason we have a day and a night is because of the sun and the Earth's rotation as it revolves around it. There would be no daylight without the sun.

Plants are made before the sun. Back in grade school biology, you learned that plants feed themselves with photosynthesis which relies on sunlight. No sun=no food for plants=plants die.

Next, god created Adam and Eve. They had kids. 2 males. So, in order for the human race to continue on, one of their sons had to bang his mother. After Adam and Eve, everyone else reproduced through incest. But wait? Doesn't the bible condem incest? I'm sure it does, it probably says anyone who commits incest should be stoned to death. And scientists know, that babies as a result of incest have a high rate of mental retardation. But, I'd say as a human race, we're all pretty damn smart.

I don't have the time to continue on trying to prove the bible is BS. There are so many contradictions, holes, and things that have been proven 100% wrong with science, that I can't even begin to list them all here. If you really want a nice helping of truth, I recommend The Skeptic's Annotated Bible (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.htm).

[Dean]

I love how most atheists are so incredibly biased that they completely disregard the fact that, unless you're some crackpot fundamentalist, Genesis is meant to be taken metaphorically.

[The Doctor]

I love how most atheists are so incredibly biased that they completely disregard the fact that, unless you're some crackpot fundamentalist, Genesis is meant to be taken metaphorically.

If that's true, then the entire Bible should be too. Nowhere in Genesis does it say it's metaphorically written or anything. What's said is what was said. It's sad to see that people actually believe it.

[Zak]

It's not sad, and the world wasn't created in a few days. It took billions of years for life to get started on earth and the rest of the galaxies to be created. The six days of creation in the Bible actually do become about 15 3/4 billion years (the approximate time scientists say the earth has been around).

Genesis is not full of bullshit. Evolution of man has told us that there were species very closely related to humans before Adam and Eve, which are mentioned in the Bible. What creationists and evolutionists argue alot with is the fact that the Bible says it's impossible for evolution since it was only 6 days, and Adam and Eve were the first humans, when really there was actually a longer evolution taking place.

Genesis is used metaphorically, and the whole Bible is alot of metaphors and symbology.

I can explain how science goes along with Genesis if you want. I really will if you ask me. It annoys me some of the atheists ignore the facts while saying we are ignoring the facts, and, while a ton of us are, I do not ignore any of the facts. I am not trying to support Christianity. I am neutral looking for evidence for whichever, but the thing is through the scientific research I've done I find that Christianity is proven more and more valid. All of the atheist arguments start to look ridiculous.

[Dean]

If that's true, then the entire Bible should be too. Nowhere in Genesis does it say it's metaphorically written or anything. What's said is what was said. It's sad to see that people actually believe it.
I only mentioned Genesis because it was the only part of the Bible that Todd referred to in his post. Yes, that is the case for other parts of the Bible as well, such as when Moses was said to have parted a body of water. The Bible is the word of God (that's the exact translation of the word 'Gospel'), not an account of what actually happened. It's up to people whether they take it literally or not.
Not to mention that there are plenty of holes and presumptions in scientific theories that are widely accepted as true, such as continental drift and the Big Bang, and that's all coming from someone who normally takes a more scientific standpoint when it comes to debates like these. I'm willing to bet that you and Todd think Christians (and members of other religions) are 'sad' for showing blind faith when society at large does so towards science as well.

[The Doctor]

The Bible is the word of God (that's the exact translation of the word 'Gospel'), not an account of what actually happened.

Ahh, but see if it's "God's word," and God is supposed to be infallable, doesn't that mean that those were written in fact? If God can't be wrong, then it can't be a metaphor. See, this is my problem with organized religion. It's filled with such loopholes and errors and people still blindly follow it. I believe people shouldn't worship a singular deity, worship life, and the fact that you have it.

[Dean]

Ahh, but see if it's "God's word," and God is supposed to be infallable, doesn't that mean that those were written in fact? If God can't be wrong, then it can't be a metaphor.
Erm... no. You're basically saying it would be wrong for God to use metaphors, being an omnipotent being (presuming that He exists).
Let's put this into perspective. If you were living around 2000 years ago, which would you find easier to grasp: the metaphors used in the Bible, or complex scientific theory?


See, this is my problem with organized religion. It's filled with such loopholes and errors and people still blindly follow it.
I seem to have edited my last post while you were posting. Go back and read the second paragraph.

I do agree thoroughly with the last sentence, however.

[Zak]

I think there is alot of blind following as in people not knowing all of the facts and not caring about the evidence all around them for things, but still following something. I don't know if there are lots of loopholes and errors, though. I'd like to see them, because I never have.

EDIT: I started reading that Skeptic's Bible thing that Todd posted. Holy crap. I've never even realized this kind of stuff. I'm lovin' it.

[Todd]

Erm... no. You're basically saying it would be wrong for God to use metaphors, being an omnipotent being (presuming that He exists).
Let's put this into perspective. If you were living around 2000 years ago, which would you find easier to grasp: the metaphors used in the Bible, or complex scientific theory?


That was 2,000 years ago, this is today. We have plenty of evidence supporting scientific theories that couldn't be found back then just because the technology didn't exist. Back then, the theory that our solar system was created by a huge explosion sounded insane and completely fucked up. Even more fucked up than the idea that some invisible man we can't hear or see waved his magic wand and created everything. Well, now it makes sense because we have telescopes and can see such explosions happening in other galaxies. When we see this sort of thing going on in hundreds of other galaxies, it only makes sense that the same happened here. Hell, back then, you could be executed for stating that the Earth is round and revolves around the Sun. Galileo spent the rest of his life under house arrest because he stated that the Earth isn't the center of the solar system. Do you really want to trust a group of people who executed astronomers for saying the world is round? The same group of people are also responsible for the bible. You really want to trust these people? Or, do you want to trust science, because thanks to science, we've flown airplanes around the world, we've sailed ships around the world, neither of which could be done on a flat Earth, and we've even sent humans to space so they could look back and say, "Yep, it's round, and it's going around the sun!" I know some of the fundamentalists may be upset by this, but science has earned my trust. Religion has not.

[Zak]

It says the world is round in the Bible.

[Dean]

That was 2,000 years ago, this is today. We have plenty of evidence supporting scientific theories that couldn't be found back then just because the technology didn't exist. Back then, the theory that our solar system was created by a huge explosion sounded insane and completely fucked up. Even more fucked up than the idea that some invisible man we can't hear or see waved his magic wand and created everything. Well, now it makes sense because we have telescopes and can see such explosions happening in other galaxies. When we see this sort of thing going on in hundreds of other galaxies, it only makes sense that the same happened here. Hell, back then, you could be executed for stating that the Earth is round and revolves around the Sun. Galileo spent the rest of his life under house arrest because he stated that the Earth isn't the center of the solar system. Do you really want to trust a group of people who executed astronomers for saying the world is round? The same group of people are also responsible for the bible. You really want to trust these people? Or, do you want to trust science, because thanks to science, we've flown airplanes around the world, we've sailed ships around the world, neither of which could be done on a flat Earth, and we've even sent humans to space so they could look back and say, "Yep, it's round, and it's going around the sun!" I know some of the fundamentalists may be upset by this, but science has earned my trust. Religion has not.
The Bible was written around 2000 years ago and back then it would have been easier to understand it the way it was written. I was just pointing that out to Nate because of what he said about its use of metaphors. I didn't mean to say that I disagree with everything you've just posted, in fact I agree with it more than anything.

[Evil Angel]

the bible is filled with shitloads of crap.i agree with todd.the bible was written by some humans who wanted to use it to make masses believe that they were the messengers of god.Those miracles are totally funny.modern science has clearly shown that those things are false.

(But sometimes i do wish that someday water in my home turns into beer.i wouldn't mind that :lol:)

[Dean]

*sigh* I'm just going to stay away from this thread from now on.

[Zak]

the bible is filled with shitloads of crap.i agree with todd.the bible was written by some humans who wanted to use it to make masses believe that they were the messengers of god.Those miracles are totally funny.modern science has clearly shown that those things are false.

(But sometimes i do wish that someday water in my home turns into beer.i wouldn't mind that :lol:)

Um...Okay.


Actually, if the Bible was created by man I believe it was created to scare people. Not for them to believe they were the "messengers of god". It would have been used as a form of law.

Seeing the sort of things God will do to you if you sin, back then, people would do what the Bible said out of fear.

[Evil Angel]

Um...Okay.


Actually, if the Bible was created by man I believe it was created to scare people. Not for them to believe they were the "messengers of god". It would have been used as a form of law.

Seeing the sort of things God will do to you if you sin, back then, people would do what the Bible said out of fear.


do what out of fear???stone prostitutes to death?fuck your mom?treat homosexuals as untouchables?blow up jews and christians(non-believers) and expect a virgin to be ready to fuck you in heaven(mentioned in the Koran)?

The bible is not only absurd and contradicts itself in many places but is also discriminatory towards women,animals,children(abraham was told to kill his son who was born after years of banging his wife.God probably felt like playing games with him).it is one of the cruelest books written on this planet(many parts of the bible and koran glorify violence)

[Zak]

That's exactly what it was. If you were doing something bad, you could fear death. Like I said, a form of law. All of those things you just said back up my point.

[Odaton]

I think this quote from Tool's "Aenima" booklet would best suit this thread:

"Beliefs allow the mind to stop functioning
A non-functioning mind is clinically dead
Believe in NOTHING."

w00t post 2,100!

[Zak]

I think this quote from Tool's "Aenima" booklet would best suit this thread:

"Beliefs allow the mind to stop functioning
A non-functioning mind is clinically dead
Believe in NOTHING."

w00t post 2,100!

Is it even possible to not believe in something? Everyone believes in something, even if it has nothing to do with religion. Believing there is no God is believing, believing that Bush is a bad president is believing, believing a song is good is believing, isn't it? Isn't that all believing? Isn't alot of the stuff we do based around believing? Just like believing air is there? Or believing the moon landing really happened?

[Odaton]

The moral of the story is not to take anything for granted.

Beliefs are based upon no facts or inquiries whatsoever
Opinions are based on careful/uncareful scrutiny of the facts.

If you BELIEVE that President Bush is a moron then you are just as wrong as someone who BELIEVES that he's the best president of all-time. Although I think that most people have beliefs and it is a very human thing to do I also think that if you think through everything carefully that you can minimize you're beliefs and have more opinions so you aren't blind to the truth.

As for the moon, I don't "believe" that they landed on the moon....how could you know FOR SURE? But yes I think they did land on the moon as the whole thing was too big and too realistic to cover up and evidence would have surfaced by now if it never happened.

So theres a fine line...I think :P

[Zak]

Oh okay. So there's belief and opinion, which are two different things? And then your beliefs are things you blindly follow, and opinions are thought out more? So the fact that I can carefully look at the evidence for God, and if conclude that, in my opinion, God does exist, I don't believe in God, but that's my opinion?

[Odaton]

Exactly.

If someone has found evidence I haven't to prove that God and everything existed, and they have an opinion on that then power to them...But I would say for the majority thats not the case.

Humans, though, like to believe in something, a salvation if you will. They disillusion themselves to give them peace of mind and security. Maybe thats a good thing, I don't know. Although I'd say I'm fairly spiritual and do think there are spiritual elements to this world I don't believe in a hierarchy of religion that says the good go to paradise and the bad go to hell. Its a structure WAITING to be exploited.

[Arashi]

But i really think that the "miracles" are crap
Use a better word than crap please. If you don`t believe in it don`t make it sound so repulsive.

Zakrisk, i think what you did was very good because you studied up on the believe instead of running away from it.

[Todd]

Use a better word than crap please. If you don`t believe in it don`t make it sound so repulsive.

Bullshit. Blatant lie. Completely untrue. Man-made fairy tale. False. Take your pick.

[Arashi]

Take your pick is the best option Mr. Admin.

[Odaton]

Do you really want to trust a group of people who executed astronomers for saying the world is round? The same group of people are also responsible for the bible. You really want to trust these people? Or, do you want to trust science, because thanks to science, we've flown airplanes around the world, we've sailed ships around the world, neither of which could be done on a flat Earth, and we've even sent humans to space so they could look back and say, "Yep, it's round, and it's going around the sun!" I know some of the fundamentalists may be upset by this, but science has earned my trust. Religion has not.

Again don't believe in anything, even in science...you are looking at things way too much in the Black/White while in real life its many shades of grey.

Religion has done some good things too, you can't deny that. And who said its entirely based on a lie? Jesus could have lived and the story merely exagerrated his legend. I don't think it was meant to be used as a way of controlling people, I think humans found a way to exploit the Bible as they do all things.

And science. When is it the saviour of our race? Each day we get more addicted and attached and reliant upon it. It has done some wonderous things but all things have a price and is it the kind we are willing to make? Our civilization hasn't progressed much over thelast little while. A lot of ways to make our lives easier but in terms of the way we think mainstream culture is dumbing us down. Science is based on logic and math, and with those economics models we are being turned into numbers in a sales projection formula. Is that the answer? I don't think so anyways.

[Zak]

Bullshit. Blatant lie. Completely untrue. Man-made fairy tale. False. Take your pick.


You can't prove that it is any of those things, and you're kind of bashing someone's beliefs. That is extremely offensive to people who are very dedicated to Christianity.

[TheVoodoo]

Well Todd apparently knows the truth or has convinced himself that Christianity is 100% false and comprised solely of lies and makebelieved stories which I believe is a shame.
I am a Christian and while his words are offensive; his views do coincide with a lot of other peoples views as well. In Christianity there is no middle ground. Its not a middle of the road path. We believe what the Bible says to be 100% fact and that fact alone causes so many people to have issues with us. I mean sure I can't prove everything in the Bible to be true because I don't have the time and because some of it can't be explained by a human. I do believe that if you really have faith God will reveal himself to you. Anyways I don't mean to go on forever... I know I can't convince you that the Bible is true if you already have closed your mind off to this possibility. I just hope you'll reconsider at some point in your life.

[Zak]

Well how much have you actually looked into it? Have you looked into all of the other possibilities? Have you looked at some of the supposed flaws?

There's some things you can get to coincidentally fit with the way the Bible explains things proven by science, but when it contradicts itself in the next chapter and says something different no longer proven by science, it gets you thinking.

I mean we know that there was a man named Jesus, and people followed him. We also know that he was crucified and his tomb was missing simply because it's was Jews at the time recorded, and they were held really high back then. They thought the body was stolen instead of crucified.

Then about 500 people around there saw him alive again. They all told the same story supposedly.

The thing is, I don't know of any source other than the Bible that people actually did see Jesus. Plus, there were all of those other self-claimed Messiahs all over at the time, and people were claiming they were doing the same things.

When you look at history, and how it fits with the Bible, it doesn't. Jesus living is just 1/4 of the story. You need evidence to prove that he did everything else claimed he did, and you just don't have it.

Everything said in the old testament can't be proven by historical records, and there are so many weird confusing parts that don't make any sense at all that makes it hard to believe in.

When I started this journey thing of mine, I was pretty much convinced that Christianity was a crackpot story. However, I wanted to know exactly why other people followed it and believed it. I went to Pastors and I questioned their faith. I shot at them with the questions that people are asking, and they gave me some books to read.

When I started reading these books I was blown away at the amount of facts we have for Christianity. Then the more I looked into it I found some of the sources they were using were bad sources. Some of the people interviewed were saying the same things they'd be proven wrong.

I looked at all the points for Christianity, and then I looked into the flaws in the points. There are very few Creationists and scientists who believe in the Bible. The majority of the science community don't believe in the Bible simply because of the things wrong with it. Alot of people believe in Intelligent Design, but not all of the people believe the Bible explains that Intelligent Designer.

You look at the flaws in the Bible, you look at how history really did happen, and you look at the little amount of evidence the Bible has to backup it's claim, and you start to question it big time.

Not believing in the Bible, Quran, etc. gives you the chance to think about things without a worry. It gives you the chance to believe in causes, do things with your family, enjoy the pleasures of life, and build morals you believe in without worrying if you'll be sent to hell for believing in something you truely believe is right.

I was wondering lately if you could be a Christian but not believe the Bible is really true. Christians are followers of Christ. Jesus gave alot of very good points, and had very good morals. Could you be a follower of Christ and his morals, and not believe in God? I'm sure you could, but what would you be?

[TheVoodoo]

I respect your views Zak and thank you for explaining yourself so thoroughly. To answer your last question. You can not be a follower of Christ and be a Christian. In the same way you can not believe in the rest of the Bible except Christ and be a Christian. Either Jesus was who he said he was and that is the Son of God or he was a lunatic liar. The Bible has over 60 authors and over 300 references prophecies telling about the Messiah.
Also..
"Prophecies of the OT Fulfilled in Jesus Christ:

There have been described in the Old Testament 300 prophecies of the first coming of the Messiah and 500 of the second coming, all of then made hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus and fulfilled to the letter in Jesus Christ, the Messiah.

George Heron, a French mathematician, calculated that the odds of one man fulfilling only 40 of those prophecies are 1 in 10 to the power of 157. That is a 1 followed by 157 zeros. Compare it to this; your odds on winning the state lottery are 14 followed by 6 zeros.

Another mathematician, Dr. Peter S. Ruckman, claims the odds of being fulfilled only 60 of them by the only person who claimed to be the Son of God, and who died on a "tree" on Calvary, and who rose the 3rd day are astronomical!... not just one in one trillion, but one out of ten to the 895th power. That is a one over a one followed by 895 zeros. "
http://biblia.com/jesusbible/prophecies.htm

So, Zak based on the fact that Jesus did fulfill everyone of the prophecies of the coming Messiah in the old testament it is the Bible in fact that proves he was the Son of God not just his own claims and actions. So if you don't believe in the Bible, Jesus was not the son of God at all.
Just some things to think about. Hope you find it interesting.

[Zak]

I don't find that interesting at all. What source other than the Bible do you have that Jesus fulfilled those prophecies? How do you even know the people who wrote the Gospels were who they claimed? We don't have any evidence to support that.

Anybody could look back in the Bible at the prophecies the Messiah was supposed to fulfill.

It means nothing. Nobody even knows if he did ANY of those things. I could write that I did all of those prophecies right now. 200 years from now someone sees what I wrote. How would they know that I really didn't? It's not good evidence, I'm sorry.

[TheVoodoo]

Ahh I can't quote many "facts" to you right now without taking time to research old manuscripts. Bottom line is thousands of people saw Jesus in his lifetime and there are many books written by historians at the time who arent even mentioned in the Bible backing up these claims. I can't prove to someone who doesnt want to believe that what I believe is true because a lot of Christianity is based on faith. I'm sorry if I make my case seem weak as I don't claim to be an expert on documents at the time. I guess I just really do see God and his greatness in the world around me. I do find my life to have more of a purpose and I do have more joy in my life since I started following God.... I can't prove to you that Christianity is what it says it is. And I'm not going to judge you for not believing so ya I'm done arguing and I'm sorry my last post didn't interest you.

[Zak]

I know of one. Josephus. He didn't even say Jesus did what he claimed, he just said what people believed he did.

[Evil Angel]

You can't prove that it is any of those things, and you're kind of bashing someone's beliefs. That is extremely offensive to people who are very dedicated to Christianity.

Beliefs???What shit.Would you believe if i come up to you and say i revieved a dead man?or that i stopped a storm with the words"Calm down".i wish people in New Orleans could do that last year.

Those miracles are totally impossible.the bible has a large number of discrepencies.
Eg-
Abraham lived upto the age of 90-100.Wow people these days with all the modern medical facilities barely live upto 80-85 but this man lived in the hot desert upto a 100?How would you explain that???the bible my friend was written in about 3-4hundred AD so during it passage through word-of-mouth people could have easily manipulated it and made people believe it.No one is doubting that Jesus existed but that he was a "miracle boy" is pure bullshit.he was no god but a mortal man who told people to lead good lives.you try to reason out for yourself whether those miracles are possible or not.

[Arashi]

Beliefs???What shit.Would you believe if i come up to you and say i revieved a dead man?or that i stopped a storm with the words"Calm down".i wish people in New Orleans could do that last year.

Those miracles are totally impossible.the bible has a large number of discrepencies.
Eg-
Abraham lived upto the age of 90-100.Wow people these days with all the modern medical facilities barely live upto 80-85 but this man lived in the hot desert upto a 100?How would you explain that???the bible my friend was written in about 3-4hundred AD so during it passage through word-of-mouth people could have easily manipulated it and made people believe it.No one is doubting that Jesus existed but that he was a "miracle boy" is pure bullshit.he was no god but a mortal man who told people to lead good lives.you try to reason out for yourself whether those miracles are possible or not.

bullshit, eh?
we`ll see.

[Zak]

Beliefs???What shit.Would you believe if i come up to you and say i revieved a dead man?or that i stopped a storm with the words"Calm down".i wish people in New Orleans could do that last year.

Those miracles are totally impossible.the bible has a large number of discrepencies.
Eg-
Abraham lived upto the age of 90-100.Wow people these days with all the modern medical facilities barely live upto 80-85 but this man lived in the hot desert upto a 100?How would you explain that???the bible my friend was written in about 3-4hundred AD so during it passage through word-of-mouth people could have easily manipulated it and made people believe it.No one is doubting that Jesus existed but that he was a "miracle boy" is pure bullshit.he was no god but a mortal man who told people to lead good lives.you try to reason out for yourself whether those miracles are possible or not.

You should read the Bible before you say stuff like that. Some of your facts are wrong.

Plus, the age thing is definitely explained in the Bible.

[Evil Angel]

we'll see what?clarify please.don't tell me when you are gonna perform a miracle.thatd be something to watch.

[Zak]

Then you'd probably want her to tell you when she's going to perform a miracle.

Everytime I've seen you put down Christianity as "bullshit" and things you don't have evidence to back it up, or you're using the wrong information.

I'm not even entirely sure I believe it, but I've atleast done tons of research on the subject. You need to look into things more, not just use things you've heard from some guy once. I know you didn't get your evidence from the Bible, because it's not the Bible everyone else is reading.

[Evil Angel]

Then you'd probably want her to tell you when she's going to perform a miracle.

Everytime I've seen you put down Christianity as "bullshit" and things you don't have evidence to back it up, or you're using the wrong information.

I'm not even entirely sure I believe it, but I've atleast done tons of research on the subject. You need to look into things more, not just use things you've heard from some guy once. I know you didn't get your evidence from the Bible, because it's not the Bible everyone else is reading.

thats right i;ve never read the bible.i'm not pointing fingers at just christianity its against all the religions.all of them have some unscientific events taking place.

[Zak]

I agree with you on that.

[Louis]

It's funny. I made somewhat of a similar blog entry today, about something very similar to this.

This is very good research you have done. And I also question Jesus' existence. Evidently, he was a person. Whether he was the Son of God and a human incarnate of God, if there is a God, I do not know. Whether he was resurrected or just killed and not forgotten, I do not know. It's all a mystery to me.

I believe in most scientific theorys, evolution, big bang, everything. I am Greek Orthodox and such, but there is no true knowledge of whether Jesus was a human-like incarnate of God, or just a good person who lived and died for his beliefs. The only evidence of his miracles is the Bible, but how do we know what is fact from fiction? We don't. It's all a mystery to me.

I wouldn't say I am an atheist (although I once claimed to be), but I am not too sure if there is a God, or if there truly was a Jesus Christ, or if there is a higher power at all. I don't know if the human race is alone in this universe, or if there are other civilizations out there, more advanced or still catching up. Life is a mystery yet to be solved.

My blog entry basically was about questioning. Why do people choose to believe in God, or certain Gods and prophets and such? Is it just so we can get along without questioning everything. Questioning is what has gotten us so far. Striving for the answer is what aspires us to live. They killed Socrates for his questioning, and some of us are being criticized for ours. There are wars over religion. And it's odd. Wars about one side questioning another side for their lack of questioning (their belief). It's odd, because questioning has gotten us so far. We're looking deeper into the universe, because we're asking what's out there, and we're finding out more and more about this never-ending universe. If we all didn't have beliefs and just went by fact, there'd be no complication. No wars. Nothing.

One of the big mysteries is what you're talking about. Jesus' existence, his resurrection, God's existence. It'll take us time, but we're getting there. And it's people like you, with your aspiration for knowledge and reconciliation with what is true and what is not that gets us farther and closer to the answer.

[Zak]

It's crazy how far I've come in my journey since starting this thread. When I started it I had some research done, and tons more to do. Now I've done alot more.

The thing is, this area is such a conflicting one. You can find tons of evidence for Christianity, look somewhere else and find all the points against it. Since I'm more of a skeptic at this point, I'm trying to remain neutral now and then make a final judgement when I think one can be made. I'm not there yet, but I'm not going to give up.

I'm not going to follow either side until we know. Right now it's looking more towards the Bible is not true. I've looked at many sources and alot of the points I had known and thought were true that were for Christianity have been proven wrong scientifically, and some logically.

One of the weakest arguments I come across are those who say: "Well I know it's true because I can feel it. I just know." Well, I've seen Christians say that, Mormons, Muslims, Jews, etc. You just can't use that as an argument, because I don't know of one religion that doesn't say that.

Oh well, I'm still interviewing, reading, researching anything I can. What's crazy is I could go speak at a church and give tons of points for Christianity, and people would take it in and never question their faith again, and I could also tell them all of the flaws and questions in it if I wanted to.

Such a long confusing area that I want resolved in my head, and I'll continue to look.

[Mark]

I have to commend you, Zak, for keeping this debate civil and on-track. Usually religious debates like this can become quite heated, but everything has been pretty cool between everyone. I'll attribute that to you not overreacting to someone questioning what you're saying.

[Evil Angel]

I have to commend you, Zak, for keeping this debate civil and on-track. Usually religious debates like this can become quite heated, but everything has been pretty cool between everyone. I'll attribute that to you not overreacting to someone questioning what you're saying.


yeah everything has been civilised so far.way to go Zak,

[Zak]

It's been kind of a strange couple weeks for me, which is why I haven't been posting as much as I usually have.

A few days ago I was in a car accident that nearly killed my girlfriend, my friend, and I. We tumbled four or five times down a steep hill. It was really a miracle that we made it out alive. We were upside down and I had to help my friend Laura out of the car because she was stuck in the backseat and couldn't get unbuckled.

It was quite the crazy experience.

It did make me question things. I mean, people around the scene were so shocked that we walked away from it. We were very lucky.

I'm not sure if it has made me lean towards one side more. Like...me believing it was the power of God that did it, but I'm not sure. I'm going to probably continue on looking from the same point I left off, although this has stirred new questions in my head.

[Odaton]

At the very least, the Bible is an incredible work of literature that while at times very old-fashioned in its beliefs, has extremely good values that you cannot deny have also helped out the needy and have done great things for this world.

I think Christianity should focus on this rather than following blind Dogma at the sake of others. But of course for the people in power control is much easier when people have blind faith in something...

[User Name]

the bible my friend was written in about 3-4hundred AD so during it passage through word-of-mouth people could have easily manipulated it and made people believe it.

To say that the Bible was manipulated through word of mouth is completely and utterly false, because you see, the books that compose it were written down. They were also copied by scribes. If there was any discrepency between the new and old copy of the manuscript, it could be checked by looking at both.

Oh, and for the record, the translations that you see today (New Living, New American Standard, King James, New King James, etc.) were all translated from the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. Please, for the sake of the topic, do a bit of research.

[Zak]

It's what slightly frustrates me about some of the Mormons I speak with. They all want to say that the warnings for Mormonism in the Bible is because of the discrepency because of King James altering the Bible. I tell them exactly as Cameron said, and they choose not to listen.

Not that I try to convert Mormons to anything(considering I don't believe in anything firmly at the moment), I just like to debate the Mormons with their own Bibles. They believe in the Bible and their new testament from Joseph Smith, so when I point out their most obvious contradictions they have a hard time backing their side up.

[Glenn]

My take: I do not believe in God (although he deserves to have a capital G since God is a name). I do not believe in sinning or heaven or hell or religion. I do not think religion itself is evil, but too many people are exploiting it to their selfish benefit and to express their idiotic discriminatory racist, sexist, and anti-semetic remarks. If religion is your thing and gives you value, spirituality, life, motivation, peace, or anything good, then continue it and enjoy it. Just don't use the "word of god" to discriminate against anyone. Everyone is equal. God didn't say everyone is equal except blacks or jews. nope. God would have said everyone is equal since he loves everyone.

Sinning does not exist. Believe it or not, physical things happen without any emotional or spiritual boundaries that God is placing upon you. The only rules one can follow are laws because if you break them, then people physically take you to a cold metal place. If you have sex before marriage, there is no prison for that. It's only in your mind. Be free of thoughts that certain actions are sinful and live life happily.

[Evil Angel]

To say that the Bible was manipulated through word of mouth is completely and utterly false, because you see, the books that compose it were written down. They were also copied by scribes. If there was any discrepency between the new and old copy of the manuscript, it could be checked by looking at both.

Oh, and for the record, the translations that you see today (New Living, New American Standard, King James, New King James, etc.) were all translated from the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. Please, for the sake of the topic, do a bit of research.

yes i'm not saying that the bible was passed through word of mouth till the 20th centurey.But at the same time Jesus didn't have a PA to write down every word that he said.you do some research too

[User Name]

Umm. You're forgetting that he had disciples. Matthew, the tax collector, is attributed to writing the first book found in the New Testament. John, another disciple, offered his own view on the events of Jesus' ministry after verifying the events of Mark and Luke's gospels.