Remembrance Day

[Anthony.]

They fought. Some suffered, some gave all. Some are still with us today to keep the memory alive.

We must not forget what they sacrificed to ensure our safety and freedom.

From the First World War to today, many soldiers died on the battlefield. Today, we honor them, and I hope you will have a little tought for those brave men and women.

*Salutes*

[Dave+Kay]

Always have, and always will do. Done parades and stuff on remeberance sundays in the past. i think the should be better known than it is though. because some people i know don't even know why they are meant to be being silent, they just do it because they are told. which is still respectful, yes, but it kind of defies the point of remembering if they don't know exactly what they are remembering. anyway. This has always been big for me as a number of my family are/have been in the forces, and i plan to sign up myself in a few years.

[Tom]

i had 2 min silence today, so asshole jerk thought it would be funny to make a farting sound, what an asshole.

[Theazninvasion68]

*gives a moment of silence*



May the be honored now and later. :)

[Testament]

...





.....



I salute you, grandfather.

[Intergalactic Christ]

Originally posted by nukefish@Nov 11 2005, 07:38 PM
i had 2 min silence today, so asshole jerk thought it would be funny to make a farting sound, what an asshole.
I know the feeling, it's a shame people these days aren't more respectful. I'd advise you not to dwell on it though, with any luck, they'll come to their senses...

No Rememberance Day is complete without...

IN FLANDERS FIELDS the poppies blow
Between the crosses row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

My full respect to those who died during the war, and those who survived. I'm thinking of you.

I'm crying now, can't say much more than that. I've spent the past 2 months looking at WW1 life, it's goddamned terrible, people just don't know...

[Dean]

Girls who talk and do their hair during the one minute silence should burn in hell.

[Intergalactic Christ]

Originally posted by Dean@Nov 11 2005, 10:00 PM
Girls who talk and do their hair during the one minute silence should burn in hell.
Oh, dear fucking god...

[Theazninvasion68]

There's a reason for...

...for my member title.

how could they be so rude?

[Aaron]

Originally posted by nukefish@Nov 11 2005, 05:08 PM
i had 2 min silence today, so asshole jerk thought it would be funny to make a farting sound, what an asshole.
My friend farted last year and was kicked out. It was helarious (the fart and the getting kicked out).

All I can say is thankfully death victims of war is decreasing.

Thanks to the men and women who sacrificed their lives for ours.

[The Outsider]

i know a whole heap of people who have served in most wars. so i take this day seriously.

my papa (grandpa) was meant to go to warbut he got ill and was unable to go. when he was looking for his unit and the survivors, no one survived so i guessed that was Gallipolli.
my uncle served soup in the vietnam war camps.

[Chris(tmas)]

Im sorry, but I seriously have no idea what happened so many years ago on this death. Nothing came on the news, and we havent done anything special on school.

[Intergalactic Christ]

Originally posted by Chris@Nov 11 2005, 10:24 PM
Im sorry, but I seriously have no idea what happened so many years ago on this death. Nothing came on the news, and we havent done anything special on school.
Remembering the soldiers and civilians who have died in wars since WW1

[The Outsider]

I think we Australians take it literally because of Gallipoli..2,000 men died that day..

[Caitlin]

http://www.matthewweathers.com/year2001/downtown_apr/reflections_teeter.jpg

:(

[Intergalactic Christ]

That picture is amazing

[The Outsider]

Originally posted by Intergalactic Christ@Nov 11 2005, 10:39 PM
That picture is amazing
yeh. its really moving.

[Chris(tmas)]

Originally posted by Intergalactic Christ+Nov 11 2005, 11:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Intergalactic Christ @ Nov 11 2005, 11:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Chris@Nov 11 2005, 10:24 PM
Im sorry, but I seriously have no idea what happened so many years ago on this death. Nothing came on the news, and we havent done anything special on school.
Remembering the soldiers and civilians who have died in wars since WW1 [/b][/quote]
Stupid question again.. which countries? It seems I forgot everything about history.

[The Outsider]

Originally posted by Chris+Nov 11 2005, 10:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Chris @ Nov 11 2005, 10:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -Intergalactic Christ@Nov 11 2005, 11:26 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--Chris@Nov 11 2005, 10:24 PM
Im sorry, but I seriously have no idea what happened so many years ago on this death. Nothing came on the news, and we havent done anything special on school.
Remembering the soldiers and civilians who have died in wars since WW1
Stupid question again.. which countries? It seems I forgot everything about history. [/b][/quote]
every country who lost people during the wars

[Intergalactic Christ]

Originally posted by Chris+Nov 11 2005, 10:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Chris @ Nov 11 2005, 10:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -Intergalactic Christ@Nov 11 2005, 11:26 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--Chris@Nov 11 2005, 10:24 PM
Im sorry, but I seriously have no idea what happened so many years ago on this death. Nothing came on the news, and we havent done anything special on school.
Remembering the soldiers and civilians who have died in wars since WW1
Stupid question again.. which countries? It seems I forgot everything about history. [/b][/quote]
Pretty much all countries that have had a war since then... quite a few. European examples: Britain, france, germany, norway, belgium...

You could take some time out to study, I could provide you with links and stuff if you wishe.

[Chris(tmas)]

Originally posted by The Outsider+Nov 11 2005, 11:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (The Outsider @ Nov 11 2005, 11:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -Chris@Nov 11 2005, 10:41 PM

Originally posted by -Intergalactic Christ@Nov 11 2005, 11:26 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--Chris@Nov 11 2005, 10:24 PM
Im sorry, but I seriously have no idea what happened so many years ago on this death. Nothing came on the news, and we havent done anything special on school.
Remembering the soldiers and civilians who have died in wars since WW1
Stupid question again.. which countries? It seems I forgot everything about history.
every country who lost people during the wars [/b][/quote]
Oh. Yeah. Thanks for that. I know exactly which country you mean. South-Africa, Kenia, Mexico, Brasil.

Christ: If its not to much trouble, yes ^_^

[The Outsider]

shit...i just found my papas enrolment on the net... :( too bad he died from cancer when i was 4.
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/script/veteran.a...eteranID=346374 (http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/script/veteran.asp?ServiceID=A&VeteranID=346374)

it all matches up...its him.. *cries*

[Ether]

Well even adults can be rude on such an important day. I mean yer sure exams are important but in my own opinion, there should still a minutes silence or two at 11:11. But no, exams are way more important&#33; God if it wasnt for the ones who gave their lifes for us we probably wouldnt even be doing exams....silly people :angry:

With that out of the way,

*salutes*

[linkin park 101]

at school we had a miniutes silence and the last post was played on the buglenowone spoke throught the whole ceremony

[Intergalactic Christ]

Originally posted by linkin park 101@Nov 12 2005, 05:44 AM
at school we had a miniutes silence and the last post was played on the buglenowone spoke throught the whole ceremony
Wow, really? They should do that more often.

Ether: They could have changed the time... it&#39;s not the time that matters, it&#39;s the fact that you&#39;re standing in silence for 2 minutes.

Hugs for The Outsider :hugz:

[Tomi]

My parent&#39;s homecountry was involved in one of the wars; Bosnia. Apparently from what I&#39;ve heard it used to be beautiful etc [a few of the members on here can probably expand on this], but I was there last year and 2 years before last year, wow. Lots of ruins, it&#39;s terrible.

During 11:11 I was sleeping, so if I snored, it was an accident, I&#39;m sorry. ;)

[Ether]

I just think that its a matter of respect. I had my 2 minutes silence later but still...respect is good.

[Intergalactic Christ]

Originally posted by Ether@Nov 12 2005, 10:19 AM
I just think that its a matter of respect. I had my 2 minutes silence later but still...respect is good.
Respect, yes, and rememberance. We must remember them.

[Joe]

I forgot it was rememberence day. I was in college & the fire alarm went off, I thought it was a drill but they only sound it for a few seconds to indicate the beginning of the silence. Me & My friend had no idea it was to begin the silence, so after laughing & talking, somebody told us to shut the fuck up. After the two minutes, someobody told me it was 11/11 & I&#39;m like oh yeah, nobody told me.

[CloserToCrawling]

I was watching Saving Private Ryan yesterday, and it was painful to see it. I never really took Veteran&#39;s Day as a serious commemoration, but ever since the whole Iraqi war and everything began, this topic of war has been weighing a lot more heavily. So even though I&#39;m a day late, *salute*.

[insanechica007]

Originally posted by CloserToCrawling@Nov 12 2005, 02:44 PM
I was watching Saving Private Ryan yesterday, and it was painful to see it.
So was "Black Hawk Down". My favorite movie, but it just seemed to hit close to home, because my dad was in two wars (Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom). In fact, he&#39;s at the Marine Corps Birthday Ball right now.

My school had veterans coming around to different classrooms. That was it. No prayer, no moment of silence, no raising of the flag.. Fuck the school. I mean, just talking to a bunch of veterans..most kids couldn&#39;t care less.

[Link04]

Yes, all that death and destruction really has furthered the human race. Thanks a ton, armed forces ;)

[esaul17]

I'm all for rememberance but I don't think the school should be forced to stand in the cold by the cenataph (or however you spell it). It is boring and pointless.

[Anthony.]

Yes, all that death and destruction really has furthered the human race. Thanks a ton, armed forces ;)

Thank you for remembering the soldiers that, when asked to, fought for the freedom you love so much and seem to never get enough of.

[Mark]

Yes, all that death and destruction really has furthered the human race. Thanks a ton, armed forces ;)

That's completely disrespectful.

I don't give a damn how much or often you want to shove your views on everyone else, there is a line where you learn to shut up when you have something cynical to say, and you've just crossed it.

Now, feel free to call my views uninformed, blast me for censorship, and write the subsequent and obligatory multi-paragraph philosphical mumbo-jumbo that only you can derive true meaning from, but that was unnecessary and utterly disrespectful. These men risked their lives when asked for their country.

Get mad at the country or government, but not at the veterans. They sacrificed their lives in the face of grave danger so people like you and me can live with freedom (of course your different view of what's "freedom" is up to you). But I'm not buying what you're selling, and these men deserve more respect than that. I've got a grandfather who fought in World War II, and everytime I think of him, I remember the things he went through to let me have this life I have now.

[+ / –]

Yes, all that death and destruction really has furthered the human race. Thanks a ton, armed forces ;)
That was completely disrespectful.

Like Mark said, you can blame the government all you want, but don't blame the brave people fighting.

I lost all my respect for you... I'm sorry.

[Will]

Yes, all that death and destruction really has furthered the human race. Thanks a ton, armed forces ;)
I hope there's a draft and they only draft you.

[+ / –]

I hope there's a draft and they only draft you.
I love you.

[Will]

It had to be said. I've never read something so disrespectful in my entire life.

[esaul17]

That's completely disrespectful.

I don't give a damn how much or often you want to shove your views on everyone else, there is a line where you learn to shut up when you have something cynical to say, and you've just crossed it.

Now, feel free to call my views uninformed, blast me for censorship, and write the subsequent and obligatory multi-paragraph philosphical mumbo-jumbo that only you can derive true meaning from, but that was unnecessary and utterly disrespectful. These men risked their lives when asked for their country.

Get mad at the country or government, but not at the veterans. They sacrificed their lives in the face of grave danger so people like you and me can live with freedom (of course your different view of what's "freedom" is up to you). But I'm not buying what you're selling, and these men deserve more respect than that. I've got a grandfather who fought in World War II, and everytime I think of him, I remember the things he went through to let me have this life I have now.

I don't know about you, but I don't honour the Nazi's on rememberance day, I think of those who fought for our side and my country. just because they did something difficult doesn't mean you have to respect it.

[Intergalactic Christ]

The nazi's were fighting for what they believed, and even though it was wrong, it's why they were doing it which counts. Yeah, it was nasty, but brave.

Also, not all germans were nazi's, some had to fight, otherwise they were killed, in Britain at least. I don't know what it was like in germany seen as our history classes haven't been into that yet.

[Mark]

I don't know about you, but I don't honour the Nazi's on rememberance day, I think of those who fought for our side and my country. just because they did something difficult doesn't mean you have to respect it.

What did I say about honouring Nazis? You're twisting my words to further a weak point.

What I'm talking about is that you have to respect the people who fought for your freedoms, sacrificied their lives for you and everyone you know. If you can't respect that, then I can't respect you for being so ungrateful.

When you imply that I mean the Nazis when I say "they", then you're implying that the Nazis "sacrificed their lives in the face of grave danger so people like you and me can live with freedom". That's not my point, and although it probably wasn't yours, I can twist words as well.

[esaul17]

What did I say about honouring Nazis? You're twisting my words to further a weak point.

What I'm talking about is that you have to respect the people who fought for your freedoms, sacrificied their lives for you and everyone you know. If you can't respect that, then I can't respect you for being so ungrateful.

When you imply that I mean the Nazis when I say "they", then you're implying that the Nazis "sacrificed their lives in the face of grave danger so people like you and me can live with freedom". That's not my point, and although it probably wasn't yours, I can twist words as well.

Hey, I agree that they deserve respect. I just think that when you said "These men risked their lives when asked for their country." and demanded respect because of that, you were wrong. I am saying that, just because people risked their lives, you don't need to respect them. Also, if you are looking at World War I with conscription, then they didn't have a choice. I respect that they died for our freedom, don't try to say I didn't. I am just saying, the German's died for their country, many were conscripted, and I don't respect them.

[Mark]

Hey, I agree that they deserve respect. I just think that when you said "These men risked their lives when asked for their country." and demanded respect because of that, you were wrong. I am saying that, just because people risked their lives, you don't need to respect them. Also, if you are looking at World War I with conscription, then they didn't have a choice. I respect that they died for our freedom, don't try to say I didn't. I am just saying, the German's died for their country, many were conscripted, and I don't respect them.

I didn't say you should respect Nazis, ever. You're overgeneralizing. You're on a completely different page and it's pointless to keep going there because you're implying I said something I didn't. Again, enough with the word twistng.

Obviously, when I talk about "these men", I meant the people fighting for us. Why would I say something like that about the Nazis if they were fighting against me? You were the one who was wrong, when you misinterpreted what I wrote.

[esaul17]

I didn't say you should respect Nazis, ever. You're overgeneralizing. You're on a completely different page and it's pointless to keep going there because you're implying I said something I didn't. Again, enough with the word twistng.

Obviously, when I talk about "these men", I meant the people fighting for us. Why would I say something like that about the Nazis if they were fighting against me? You were the one who was wrong, when you misinterpreted what I wrote.

I KNOW you weren't refering to the Nazi's. I was using them as an example of people who fought for their country that haven't earned my respect. You are twisting my words more than I am twisting yours.

[Mark]

I KNOW you weren't refering to the Nazi's. I was using them as an example of people who fought for their country that haven't earned my respect. You are twisting my words more than I am twisting yours.

Hardly. ;)

I don't see what using people I wasn't talking about as an example of people you don't respect accomplishes, when in fact it had nothing to do with what I said. Hah. Stalemate.

[esaul17]

Hardly. ;)

I don't see what using people I wasn't talking about as an example of people you don't respect accomplishes, when in fact it had nothing to do with what I said. Hah. Stalemate.

Okay, as long as you agree that, just because you fought for your country, you don't deserve respect from all.

[Link04]

That's completely disrespectful.

I don't give a damn how much or often you want to shove your views on everyone else, there is a line where you learn to shut up when you have something cynical to say, and you've just crossed it.

Now, feel free to call my views uninformed, blast me for censorship, and write the subsequent and obligatory multi-paragraph philosphical mumbo-jumbo that only you can derive true meaning from, but that was unnecessary and utterly disrespectful. These men risked their lives when asked for their country.

Get mad at the country or government, but not at the veterans. They sacrificed their lives in the face of grave danger so people like you and me can live with freedom (of course your different view of what's "freedom" is up to you). But I'm not buying what you're selling, and these men deserve more respect than that. I've got a grandfather who fought in World War II, and everytime I think of him, I remember the things he went through to let me have this life I have now.

Yes, it was disrespectful. Frankly, they don't have my respect. I don't see your insults in any way relevant to this discussion. They don't refute or attempt to disprove what all of you suddenly got offended at.

At the end of the day, you can dress it however you please, but the armed forces murder people. That's all, call it sacrifice, call it whatever you want, but the ends don't hallow the means. It's deliberate killing, even if agreed upon or state sponsored. It remains murder. You can take whatever moral high ground you want saying that I should respect veterans and what they did, but I could just as easily demand that you give human life in general the proper respect it deserves.

I've got a grandfather that served on the USS Louisville in the United States Navy. Oh well. Thank god he didn't kill anyone. But he still aided in murder, everyone down to the ship's cook did. I condemn that, even though I love him dearly. The fact that one's relative comitts an act doesn't make it any more right or wrong.

Minus Zero: People choose to enter the military. In times of draft, people choose to be coerced. Even if a man holds up your store, do you not choose to give him the money?

Will: Like a draft would uproot me from my values. You guys should know me better than that by now.

Respect lost? Oh well, I don't post for your respect, guys, I post for myself, and for what I think betters humanity. Killing isn't in that equation.

[Mark]

Okay, as long as you agree that, just because you fought for your country, you don't deserve respect from all.

That's your choice, not mine, and I'll never agree with that.

Link: While I respect your choice of opinion, your views are just so radically different from what I and many other people in this thread believe that it just appauls me that you've chosen this way to spin these veterans' services to further a point about the wrongfulness of murder. Tell me, would you kill someone if the only other alternative was to die at their hands? There was no room for negociations about racial purity with the Nazis, so don't go down that road.

Add my name to the list of people whose respect you've lost.

[Link04]

K, I suppose you guys will have to keep track of that list, because I'm sure not. Thanks for respecting my choice of opinion.

[esaul17]

That's your choice, not mine, and I'll never agree with that.

Link: While I respect your choice of opinion, your views are just so radically different from what I and many other people in this thread believe that it just appauls me that you've chosen this way to treat veterans. Add my name to the list of people whose respect you've lost.

If you think that just because you fought for your country, you deserve the respect of everyone, then you DO respect Nazi's. They DID fight for their country. According to you that is enough for you to respect them.

[Mark]

If you think that, just because you fought for your country, you deserve respect of everyone, then you DO respect Nazi's. They DID fight for their country. According to you that is enough for you to respect them.


Okay, as long as you agree that, just because you fought for your country, you don't deserve respect from all.

I'm willing to bet you're looking at your computer screen at the moment grinning because you think you've got me boxed into a corner.

Being a Canadian, that sounds like you're talking about a hypothetical situation involving Canadian soldiers. To that I disagree.

Nice try, though.

The way you meant to say it is this way:


Okay, as long as you agree that, just because a soldier fought for his/her country, (s)he don't deserve respect from all.

If you had worded it correctly, I would've agreed with you only in situations where extremism is involved, i.e: the Nazis.

[esaul17]

I'm willing to bet you're looking at your computer screen at the moment grinning because you think you've got me boxed into a corner.

Being a Canadian, that sounds like you're talking about a hypothetical situation involving Canadian soldiers. To that I disagree.

Nice try, though.

The way you meant to say it is this way:



If you had worded it correctly, I would've agreed with you only in situations where extremism is involved, i.e: the Nazis.

I am Canadian as well. I apologize for my poor wording. I am glad you agree that not everyone fighting for their country deserves respect. "You" refered to a hypothetical soldier, not necessarily Canadian.

[User Name]

I haven't really observed Remberance Day for the last two years. Last year, I spent the day playing Halo 2 at a friends house, and just this last Friday, I spent it playing Fable.

It was fun, but I kind of feel bad about it. My grandfather on my dad's side of the family served in the First World War (although not in a combat role. He had a syndrome that resembled Parkinson's, but it wasn't that. To this day, I still don't know exactly what he did).

[Will]

Will: Like a draft would uproot me from my values. You guys should know me better than that by now.
Perhaps, if you'd serve your country, you'd have some respect for what those people go through. You're being completely selfish now.

[Link04]

Perhaps, if you'd serve your country, you'd have some respect for what those people go through. You're being completely selfish now.
Yes. I am selfish.
No, I don't think killing people myself would make me respect killing. For a moment let's say it would. Would it make murder any less murderous if I respected it? Of course not, that's silly. Popular respect doesn't make it any more legitimate.

[Will]

What the FUCK are you talking about?

Let me make it bigger and maybe it'll make it clearer to you:

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT RESPECTING MURDER, YOU FOOL. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT RESPECTING THE SOLDIERS WHO FOUGHT FOR THE COUNTRY TO PROTECT OUR FREEDOMS.

There.

[Link04]

And what do soldiers do, Will? Sit around and play cards? They murder people and take up a load of your tax money whilst doing so. Again, excuse me for valuing human life and individual property rights.

[Will]

Wow.

Seriously. That's all I can say to you now. You've completely baffled me.

[Link04]

What's baffling to me is why you guys are so shocked. It's funny how you're so quick to take the moral high ground on this issue and talk about virtue, yet the axiom of the commercials and the air shows are all alike: people are being killed. I think, like I alluded to, it's more important to respect human life than it is to respect any nation of veterans.

Again, as I've said, you can throw around cozy terms like duty, honor, and security, but they sugar coat what a soldier is. A soldier is there to kill. He is given a weapon, training, and government sanction to kill people. Whatever the intention, whatever the words used, the armed forced wouldn't be armed forces if they didn't kill other people.

I believe I've gotten into a violence discussion on this forum already. If not, please note that violence has not productively solved anything in our history as a race. Violence replaces immediate problems with several other problems that can be called much more underlying and severe. Even in WWII, violence provided no productive solution to the Nazi's, it simply tried to eradicate the eradicators. I'm not saying the immediate goal wasn't accomplished, I'm just saying that when you choose to take a destructive means to reach an end, the end must logical be destructive.

Maybe this sheds more light on why I say what I say. It's not that I don't want problems solved, it's not that I want everyone to suffer and be a victim, I simply acknowledge that man's brain is a much more potent weapon than any gun he can produce, and that problems can be productively solved by such, without having to murder anyone.

[esaul17]

What the FUCK are you talking about?

Let me make it bigger and maybe it'll make it clearer to you:

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT RESPECTING MURDER, YOU FOOL. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT RESPECTING THE SOLDIERS WHO FOUGHT FOR THE COUNTRY TO PROTECT OUR FREEDOMS.

There.

So we are respecting those who muder for us? Still murder, even if it is for a just and respectable cause.

[+ / –]

EDIT: This is addressed to Link.

Not everyone goes to the military because they want to kill.

The sole purpose of the military is not to kill. That is not why people join the military.

The military, as you will find out next year (looking at your birth year), offers college assistance. For those who cannot afford to pay tuition, for those who are not smart enough or qualify for scholarships, the military offers a way out. Sign up for the reserves, we'll pay for college. It's that simple. Some people just want to go to college. That may be all there is for them.

While you can disrespect the IDEA of the military all you want, DON'T in any way disrespect the soldiers.

Yes, they are involved in killings. Do they have a choice? It's the only way they can serve their country without a Master's degree (in which case you could get an office job at some government facility) or a large amount of cash (which is how politicians get started).

But you seem to be against killing in general. Your grandfather never even killed anyone, yet he ASSISTED.

So killing in general is bad? What if you were attacked? Your life was on the line? Would you defend yourself, i.e. kill the other guy, or hold to your views on killing and let the other man kill you?

That's the same situation. Soldiers don't kill innocents (unless by accident, and that's something else entirely), they kill those who threaten the lives of others.

I'd post more, but you're not worth the time, and I need to get to class anyways.

[Link04]

I'm well aware of the monetary assitence the military provides.

I never once speculated on an individuals' reasoning for joining the military. I stated what the military is and what the military does. The military kills people. There is no evading that. Killing people intentionally is murder, there is also no evading that.

I don't see how you can logically argue that an individual has no CHOICE to but to kill, when they themselves were the ones that chose to enter the military! Whether their options are limited or not, it's their name that they sign on the dotted line, I already stated this: "People choose to enter the military. In times of draft, people choose to be coerced. Even if a man holds up your store, do you not choose to give him the money?"
They put themselves in the situation. In times of draft, they still chose to agree with compulsary military service. They CHOSE to. Does anyone enter the military who's unaware to the cold fact that the military's main function is killing other people?

Your analogy confuses the situation of a soldier. Like I've said in this post, a soldier chooses to put his or her life on the line, and a soldier chooses to place himself into the way of danger. How this foolishness ever got to be a noble act, I remain ignorant of. Thus, it's anything but the same situation.

"Not worth your time" I'd thank you to leave attacks of my person out of this. I believe, unless I'm mistaken, that I've given the same respect to you.

[esaul17]

I'm well aware of the monetary assitence the military provides.

I never once speculated on an individuals' reasoning for joining the military. I stated what the military is and what the military does. The military kills people. There is no evading that. Killing people intentionally is murder, there is also no evading that.

I don't see how you can logically argue that an individual has no CHOICE to but to kill, when they themselves were the ones that chose to enter the military! Whether their options are limited or not, it's their name that they sign on the dotted line, I already stated this: "People choose to enter the military. In times of draft, people choose to be coerced. Even if a man holds up your store, do you not choose to give him the money?"
They put themselves in the situation. In times of draft, they still chose to agree with compulsary military service. They CHOSE to. Does anyone enter the military who's unaware to the cold fact that the military's main function is killing other people?

Your analogy confuses the situation of a soldier. Like I've said in this post, a soldier chooses to put his or her life on the line, and a soldier chooses to place himself into the way of danger. How this foolishness ever got to be a noble act, I remain ignorant of. Thus, it's anything but the same situation.

"Not worth your time" I'd thank you to leave attacks of my person out of this. I believe, unless I'm mistaken, that I've given the same respect to you.

While you always have a choice, if that choice is be or be killed, I can't really blame the soldiers.

[Link04]

Right, but, like I said, they're the ones that put themselves in that situation. They chose to be in that "kill or be killed situation." That goes along with the territory if you sign up for the army.

[esaul17]

Right, but, like I said, they're the ones that put themselves in that situation. They chose to be in that "kill or be killed situation." That goes along with the territory if you sign up for the army.

Not with conscription. It may not be kill or be killed, but the alternative isn't really a viable option.

[Anthony.]

Link, you're constantly contradicting yourself. You'd like everyone to live by your principles, wich concern individuality and freedom of choice yet you show a total lack of respect towards those who don't/didn't live by those "ideals". While sitting confortably in front of a computer, you tell us we should not honor people who fought for your right to sit on your fucking ass while disagreeing about every organized thing/society that may spring to your mind.

[Will]

I don't see how you can logically argue that an individual has no CHOICE to but to kill, when they themselves were the ones that chose to enter the military!
That's an awful argument. A lot of people join the military to help them pay for college with no thoughts of ever going into combat or even wanting to go into combat. That right there destroys any argument that you can make based off of that.

[esaul17]

That's an awful argument. A lot of people join the military to help them pay for college with no thoughts of ever going into combat or even wanting to go into combat. That right there destroys any argument that you can make based off of that.

They choose to take that risk. If they joined the army thinking armies NEVER fight, they are just morons.

[Will]

They choose to take that risk. If they joined the army thinking armies NEVER fight, they are just morons.
Congratulations on ruling out the fact that there are other jobs within the military that don't require fighting. There are jobs where all you have to do is sit in front of a computer or, hell, even CLEAN weapons. Those people rarely ever seen combat face to face unless something big happens. So you're wrong.

And don't give me that bullshit about "aiding the murderers."

[Link04]

That's an awful argument. A lot of people join the military to help them pay for college with no thoughts of ever going into combat or even wanting to go into combat. That right there destroys any argument that you can make based off of that.
I doubt very many people actually want to go into combat.

I don't see how anything you said destroys my argument. Again, I haven't made any effort to speculate on anyone's motives for joining the military. I'm talking about cause and effect. Given the definition of the military, one would think that possible combat would be implied. If they didn't think about that, then frankly, that's on them. It was their decision, it was their judgement, no one elses. Why am I supposed to revere them for not considering the effects of their action? Your argument of extending sympathy and respect to people who choose to let someone else put them onto a battlefield is non-sensible at best.

And explain how them "aiding the murderers" is bullshit. You seem to be making a lot of statements with only a few attempts at logical proof.

[Will]

You know what? I'm done here. If you don't want to have respect for the people who fought for your fucking freedoms, that's fine by me. It's obvious that no-one's going to change your fucked-up views.

[+ / –]

You know what? I'm done here. If you don't want to have respect for the people who fought for your fucking freedoms, that's fine by me. It's obvious that no-one's going to change your fucked-up views.
Haha, the kid is like what... 16? At this point in life, he either believes everything is right or is willing to believe others, depending on how life has been to him.

But seriously Link, your argument is silly. The fact that the military MIGHT put you in a combat situation is not argument enough to say "It's your own fault."

When you sign up to do computer work, it doesn't imply that you might hold a gun and fire it at someone.


Why am I supposed to revere them for not considering the effects of their action?
Take someone in a car. They drive home from work as they usually do. A drunk driver hits them and they lose limbs.

I guess we're not supposed to feel sorry for them at all, not pity them AT ALL, because they didn't consider the possibility of getting in a car accident. I guess they shouldn't have been driving at all because there's the POSSIBILITY of getting in an accident.

People consider the fact that they might be sent into combat. The fact that you're just doing computer work would probably outweigh the fact that you might be going into combat. Could you SEE someone who is planning to major in Computer Programming (i.e. Nerd) going into combat? Neither could they when they signed up. They just saw it as a way to pay for college. They think, "Well look at me. Why would they send me?"

But they do.

Sometimes they aren't even trained to fight. Maybe they don't even know how to HOLD a gun. Why send him?

Yet they do.

And it happens. This is not a hypothetical situation. This is the story of my friend who graduated a few years ago.

He's probably the least possible person to be sent into combat, but wanted to do work for his country.

And now he's being sent to war.

So are you ready to cast the first stone on him? Do you have any sympathy?

[Dave+Kay]

I doubt very many people actually want to go into combat.
Wrong. I would go into combat without question if it was fighting for what i believed and the people and freedom i love. And i would do my best to protect what i believe right, just as soldeirs have being in years gone by. Now, take the Nazis for example. yes. their teachings were moraly wrong, but the people who were fighting in the German army at the time were fighting for what they beleived to be right, no matter how wrong it might have been. those who signed up volentarily did so because they thought they were fighting to have a better world. And if you have trouble respecting those that have faught for what they believe? Think of this. You and your friend are walking home from school/work/whatever and you have to cross a road. you walk out without looking, right infront of a car. Your friend sees the car, throws himself out into the road, pushing you out of harms way, but in the process injuring or killing himself. Would you not respect him for saving you? protecting you? If the answer is yes then there is no difference between what that friend did and what soldeirs are doing now. Now do not give me that shit about 'yeah but they're murdering people.' Again. another hypothetical situaton. you are in school/a bar/whatever and you get into a fight. now this guy who is hitting you and kicking you isn't gonig to stop unless you do something about it. i.e hit him back. And if you try briging up Iraq? Let's replace you in that fight with a friend. your best friend is getting the shit beaten out of him and only you can stop it happening. No. Iraq is not America's best friend, but the point of saying that is just because something doesn't effect you, does not mean it is wrong to stop it. I'm done with this now. I hope you understand what i'm trying to say. (Oh. one more thing, just incase you try, I don't need some answer about how 'I don't have to cross a road on my way home from work/school/whatever' or 'My friends don't get in any fights'.)

[NickelNine]

Like I've said in this post, a soldier chooses to put his or her life on the line, and a soldier chooses to place himself into the way of danger. How this foolishness ever got to be a noble act, I remain ignorant of.

Your lack of respect is disgusting. I will provide an example for you. Let's say you are being threatened. The only way to live is if your dad chooses to put his life at risk to save yours. He chooses to put his life at risk. Your dad gets killed. You are saved. According to all your posts, at his funeral you would say, "I don't respect him. He knew his life was at risk. Oh well." Your dad didn't kill anyone and wasn't attempting to kill anyone. Him dying defended you. You, in all your selfishness, don't acknowledge your dad's act. What do you think your dad would think of your reaction? What if your roles were reversed? How would you feel if your dad didn't care?

[Link04]

Hate to bring this back up, but I've been busy.

Look guys, I can tell no one is getting anywhere here (especially when you start referring to my age...talk about an ad hominem), so I'll throw in some final thoughts and hope to bring some closure to this thread.

Surely, I could concede that ones who sign up for the military to work on computers, or as a mechanic may be taken by surprise when a gun is placed in their hand. I, for one, have not seen a military contract. Does anything in it say that it will/won't do that in times of "need?" If so, well, then, like I've been saying, it's on them, they put their names down. If not, then another injustice is present.

Nickel, your analogy, like most attempted ones toward this situation, isn't applicable. This is not a dichotomy, this is not as mind-numbingly simplistic as you make it out to be. No one has to die! It's not me or him, or me or my father, or me or my neighbor, or me or a guy in a third world country! I just don't think anyone has to die, I think there are far more productive ways of solving the situation then by taking away a portion of the world's wealth of minds, bodies, houses, ect. Is it idealist? Yes! I happen to want better for the human race, I refuse to settle for the fallacous rhetoric that tells me that in order to live, someone else must die; that mercantilist view of the world should have died a few centuries ago along with Adam Smith. People have an intrinsic value, as well as intrinsic rights. During war time, value is stripped away and rights are trampled on, all because both sides lose sight that the globe is made up of one population striving to work and live better, healthier, and easier. We lose that sight by over-extending our influence through foreign policy, they lose that sight by retaliating violently. Is more violence to better the situation? Why don't we prescribe a virus to treat the virus? I expect better of people, that's all.