View Full Version : Federal Judge declares Pledge unconstitutional
Caitlin
09-15-2005, 10:39 PM
A federal judge in Sacramento ruled Wednesday that teacher-led recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools violates the Constitution's protection of religious freedom because the pledge refers to "one Nation under God."
The ruling, by U.S. District Judge Lawrence Karlton, revives a legal challenge to the 51-year-old version of the Pledge. The U.S. Supreme Court rejected that challenge last year. The case may be headed that way again. Derek Gaubatz, lawyer for students who want to keep the Pledge, says the decision will be appealed to the Supreme Court "if necessary ... as quickly as possible."
In June 2004, five of the Supreme Court's nine justices found that Sacramento atheist Michael Newdow did not have custody of his school-age daughter and thus could not challenge school district policy that allowed teachers to lead students in a voluntary recitation of the Pledge.
The decision enabled the high court to dodge a battle over whether the phrase "under God" carries a religious meaning that is unacceptable under the Constitution's First Amendment, which forbids government endorsement of religion. The court also avoided deciding whether reciting the Pledge in schools is a coerced religious practice.
Newdow refiled the case in January and added as plaintiffs two sets of anonymous atheist parents who also have children in Sacramento-area schools. On Wednesday, Karlton ruled that the new plaintiffs were qualified to sue although Newdow isn't.
Because the Supreme Court had rejected Newdow's challenge on procedural grounds and not on its merits, Karlton wrote, he was required to reinstate an earlier federal appeals court ruling in the case that had struck down the recitation of the pledge.
In 2003, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals found teacher-led recitation of the Pledge to be "coercive" because it "places students in the untenable position of choosing between participating in an exercise with religious content or protesting."
That ruling, Karlton wrote, is "binding precedent" on him as a "judge of a subordinate court."
Newdow, a physician and a lawyer, said he was "very pleased" by Karlton's ruling. "The Pledge is wrong, and the (school district) government is wrong here," Newdow said.
Gaubatz said Karlton's ruling showed that he was afraid to address the heart of the matter. "Basically, he punted and let the 9th Circuit do his dirty work," said Gaubatz, litigation director for the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, a research and legal advocacy group in Washington, D.C.
The phrase "under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance by Congress in 1954 after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, a Catholic men's group. The Supreme Court has never ruled on the constitutionality of reciting the pledge in public schools and has a mixed record in other cases involving the public invocation of the deity. For instance, it has struck down prayer at school graduations but has upheld chaplain-led prayers offered at the opening of Congress.
Source: USATODAY (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-09-14-pledge-allegiance_x.htm)
Granted this isn't in effect for the whole country, but I thought it was interesting that the issue was actually brought to court.
edit: I can't type URLs, apparently.
The Outsider
09-15-2005, 10:47 PM
wow ive never heard about this till now...
I heard about this last night.
Why don't we just take the "under God" bit out of the Pledge and have done with it?
Glenn
09-16-2005, 01:29 AM
I don't really mind saying it. Sometimes I say it, but if I'm busy with something, I won't go out of my way to say it.
Well, I believe in God, but I don't really mind if it's in there or not. People who want to can say it, people who don't want to can skip over it. I mean, it was added into the pledge in the modern era, so it's not like the pledge has always had it.
I'm not the most religious person you'll find around but I find this to be stupid. The word "God" is found on most things dealing with the country; why don't people complain about them as much as they complain about the pledge?
Pretty soon it'll be unconstitutional to have a church in the United States, despite freedom of religion.
Okay, so that's exagerrating and going too far; but you never know in this day and age.
Originally posted by Will@Sep 15 2005, 11:24 PM
I'm not the most religious person you'll find around but I find this to be stupid. The word "God" is found on most things dealing with the country; why don't people complain about them as much as they complain about the pledge?
Pretty soon it'll be unconstitutional to have a church in the United States, despite freedom of religion.
Okay, so that's exagerrating and going too far; but you never know in this day and age.
Well, people have a choice to go to a church. From what I've read and heard, many students are forced to recite the pledge and use the word "God" against their will sometimes. Just to be fair to everyone, it should be removed.
(I know you're exaggerating, but I'm pointing out the differences. :P)
Originally posted by Mark+Sep 16 2005, 02:04 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mark @ Sep 16 2005, 02:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Will@Sep 15 2005, 11:24 PM
I'm not the most religious person you'll find around but I find this to be stupid. The word "God" is found on most things dealing with the country; why don't people complain about them as much as they complain about the pledge?
Pretty soon it'll be unconstitutional to have a church in the United States, despite freedom of religion.
Okay, so that's exagerrating and going too far; but you never know in this day and age.
Well, people have a choice to go to a church. From what I've read and heard, many students are forced to recite the pledge and use the word "God" against their will sometimes. Just to be fair to everyone, it should be removed.
(I know you're exaggerating, but I'm pointing out the differences. :P) [/b][/quote]
I don't know any teachers that actually force students to say the pledge. They may ask (and emphasize their asking, so to speak), but I've never seen them force someone.
iamrighthereandnow
09-16-2005, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by Will@Sep 16 2005, 01:54 AM
I'm not the most religious person you'll find around but I find this to be stupid. The word "God" is found on most things dealing with the country; why don't people complain about them as much as they complain about the pledge?
Pretty soon it'll be unconstitutional to have a church in the United States, despite freedom of religion.
Okay, so that's exagerrating and going too far; but you never know in this day and age.
freedom of religion should be a freedom to disbelief in such, therefore people should pledge their loyalty to God in Church, Mosque or Synagogue, but the pledge to the country- to any country, should not have God in there at all or the millions of atheists can be happily hypocritical for the sake of the religious. i don't think so. loyalty to the country, is loyalty to the country, it has nothing to do with God, as i said, freedom of religion should grant you that you can go and pray and celebrate your God, in approciate places and at your home.
Originally posted by Will@Sep 15 2005, 08:54 PM
Pretty soon it'll be unconstitutional to have a church in the United States
You won't see me complaining :whistle: ;)
Originally posted by Todd+Sep 16 2005, 06:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Todd @ Sep 16 2005, 06:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Will@Sep 15 2005, 08:54 PM
Pretty soon it'll be unconstitutional to have a church in the United States
You won't see me complaining :whistle: ;) [/b][/quote]
You won't see me complain either.
Theazninvasion68
09-16-2005, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by Kate+Sep 16 2005, 05:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Kate @ Sep 16 2005, 05:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -Todd@Sep 16 2005, 06:36 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--Will@Sep 15 2005, 08:54 PM
Pretty soon it'll be unconstitutional to have a church in the United States
You won't see me complaining :whistle: ;)
You won't see me complain either. [/b][/quote]
Me either :)
But This much just becuase of two words? rubbish!
But then again, I never say it anymore...
Ander
09-16-2005, 02:52 PM
Pledge from 1924-1954
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands; one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
Pledge from 1952-Now
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands; one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
Originally posted by Ant+Sep 16 2005, 12:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ant @ Sep 16 2005, 12:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -Mark@Sep 16 2005, 02:04 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--Will@Sep 15 2005, 11:24 PM
I'm not the most religious person you'll find around but I find this to be stupid. The word "God" is found on most things dealing with the country; why don't people complain about them as much as they complain about the pledge?
Pretty soon it'll be unconstitutional to have a church in the United States, despite freedom of religion.
Okay, so that's exagerrating and going too far; but you never know in this day and age.
Well, people have a choice to go to a church. From what I've read and heard, many students are forced to recite the pledge and use the word "God" against their will sometimes. Just to be fair to everyone, it should be removed.
(I know you're exaggerating, but I'm pointing out the differences. :P)
I don't know any teachers that actually force students to say the pledge. They may ask (and emphasize their asking, so to speak), but I've never seen them force someone. [/b][/quote]
Keaton and Todd can probably elaborate on that better than I can. It's happened to both of them, from what I can remember.
Edit (I found these in 2 seconds): http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/docu...documentID=3047 (http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=3047)
http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/docu...ocumentID=10196 (http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=10196)
Schools are not allowed to punish kids for not reciting the pledge but many still do.
Weezy
09-16-2005, 08:56 PM
I think it's nice to see that freedom of non-religion is finally regaining some kind of its power. :)
Kæton
09-16-2005, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by Ant@Sep 15 2005, 04:35 PM
I don't know any teachers that actually force students to say the pledge. They may ask (and emphasize their asking, so to speak), but I've never seen them force someone.
I used to get punished and ridiculed for not saying the pledge.
I used to get sent to the principal’s office and I was also ridiculed in front of my entire class for not saying it as well. Others got similar punishments for failing to say it, too.
We never had a choice or option as to whether or not we could say it.
Although I don't have to do it anymore, I like this movement in case my future children have no interest in religion. I wouldn't like them to go through what I did. The less for people to complain about, the better I say. You shouldn't have to celebrate your religion publicly to be proud of what you believe in, so keeping general statements of religion to a minimum is a good thing, in my opinion.
I say if people need to remind themselves in which name they live under, then you're either not loyal to that religion or just egotistical. Sure, the "under God" was put in to show pride at one point, but America IS the land of freedom and diversity, so this is not completely unjustifiable in my book.
But I'm not here to start anything so I'll be on my way. :lol:
insanechica007
09-16-2005, 09:38 PM
i think it's all bullshit. granted, i don't believe in god, but so many others do, and it's not like the ones who don't get all offended by it. i dunno why everyone has to make such a big deal of it.
+ / –
09-17-2005, 03:55 AM
Originally posted by insanechica007@Sep 16 2005, 03:38 PM
i think it's all bullshit. granted, i don't believe in god, but so many others do, and it's not like the ones who don't get all offended by it. i dunno why everyone has to make such a big deal of it.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion ..."
Originally posted by Mark+Sep 16 2005, 07:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mark @ Sep 16 2005, 07:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -Ant@Sep 16 2005, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by -Mark@Sep 16 2005, 02:04 AM
Originally posted by -Will@Sep 15 2005, 11:24 PM
I'm not the most religious person you'll find around but I find this to be stupid. The word "God" is found on most things dealing with the country; why don't people complain about them as much as they complain about the pledge?
Pretty soon it'll be unconstitutional to have a church in the United States, despite freedom of religion.
Okay, so that's exagerrating and going too far; but you never know in this day and age.
Well, people have a choice to go to a church. From what I've read and heard, many students are forced to recite the pledge and use the word "God" against their will sometimes. Just to be fair to everyone, it should be removed.
(I know you're exaggerating, but I'm pointing out the differences. :P)
I don't know any teachers that actually force students to say the pledge. They may ask (and emphasize their asking, so to speak), but I've never seen them force someone.
Keaton and Todd can probably elaborate on that better than I can. It's happened to both of them, from what I can remember.
Edit (I found these in 2 seconds): http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/docu...documentID=3047 (http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=3047)
http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/docu...ocumentID=10196 (http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=10196)
Schools are not allowed to punish kids for not reciting the pledge but many still do. [/b]
Mark, lots of things happen in schools that "aren't supposed to". I hardly think that because an extremely small percentage (I'd say less than 0.5%) of schools punish students for refusing to recite the pledge that it is indicative of the entire nation.
Don't get me wrong, I still disagree with any school that punishes students for not reciting the pledge, but can you honestly go so far as to say "many" students are forced to recite it?
<!--QuoteBegin--Ant@Sep 15 2005, 04:35 PM
I don't know any teachers that actually force students to say the pledge. They may ask (and emphasize their asking, so to speak), but I've never seen them force someone.
I used to get punished and ridiculed for not saying the pledge.
I used to get sent to the principal’s office and I was also ridiculed in front of my entire class for not saying it as well. Others got similar punishments for failing to say it, too.
We never had a choice or option as to whether or not we could say it.
Although I don't have to do it anymore, I like this movement in case my future children have no interest in religion. I wouldn't like them to go through what I did. The less for people to complain about, the better I say. You shouldn't have to celebrate your religion publicly to be proud of what you believe in, so keeping general statements of religion to a minimum is a good thing, in my opinion.
I say if people need to remind themselves in which name they live under, then you're either not loyal to that religion or just egotistical. Sure, the "under God" was put in to show pride at one point, but America IS the land of freedom and diversity, so this is not completely unjustifiable in my book.
But I'm not here to start anything so I'll be on my way. :lol:[/quote]
Sorry that happened to you, but as I said, I've never actually seen that happen, or even heard of it happening to someone... until now, at least.
And, for anyone interested in more on the constitution and religion...
http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/meaning_of_es...tablishment.htm (http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/meaning_of_establishment.htm)
Originally posted by Mark+Sep 16 2005, 02:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mark @ Sep 16 2005, 02:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -Ant@Sep 16 2005, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by -Mark@Sep 16 2005, 02:04 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--Will@Sep 15 2005, 11:24 PM
I'm not the most religious person you'll find around but I find this to be stupid. The word "God" is found on most things dealing with the country; why don't people complain about them as much as they complain about the pledge?
Pretty soon it'll be unconstitutional to have a church in the United States, despite freedom of religion.
Okay, so that's exagerrating and going too far; but you never know in this day and age.
Well, people have a choice to go to a church. From what I've read and heard, many students are forced to recite the pledge and use the word "God" against their will sometimes. Just to be fair to everyone, it should be removed.
(I know you're exaggerating, but I'm pointing out the differences. :P)
I don't know any teachers that actually force students to say the pledge. They may ask (and emphasize their asking, so to speak), but I've never seen them force someone.
Keaton and Todd can probably elaborate on that better than I can. It's happened to both of them, from what I can remember.
Edit (I found these in 2 seconds): http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/docu...documentID=3047 (http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=3047)
http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/docu...ocumentID=10196 (http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=10196)
Schools are not allowed to punish kids for not reciting the pledge but many still do. [/b][/quote]
Nah, its never happened to me. When we had to say it in high school, I would typically say the pledge but mutter something anti-religious in place of "under god" :D
Louis
09-17-2005, 04:20 PM
I don't say the pledge at my school. I just stand up with all of the other students, but I don't say a word. And personally, we should have the option of doing so. Schools who hit their kids because they don't say the pledge are obviously idiots.
Weezy
09-18-2005, 08:32 AM
I just stand, and say parts of it. I always omit "under God" though. I am just soooooo patriotic.
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