Under God

[Pinkin Lark]

Hey everyone,
My girlfriend has a project on wether (sp?) "Under God" should be taken out of the pledge of alliegance. I have tried finding a few links and so far nothing too helpful, i was wondering what your guys's thoughts on the subject and are there any links with alot of information that could be helpful? Thanks everyone!

[Mechanical Christ]

http://www.lpassociation.com/forums/index....04&hl=under+god (http://www.lpassociation.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=12&t=13504&hl=under+god)

[Ander]

*yawn*

Enough of wether or not it should it happen. How about why or why not it can't happen? This topic has been driven into the ground.

[Mechanical Christ]

Answer : YES. FUCK YES.

[Mark]

$5 says this thread turns into an uptight religious people vs atheists fight by page two.

I'll simply say "Yes, I think it should be taken out. Religion and government should be two totally seperate things."

[Willstar]

It should be taken out, and it should have never been there in the first place. The country was founded on the basis of the separation of the church and the state, which is the entire reason the pilgrims came to America in the first place. To be forced to say "under God" in the pledge, or even to be fored to swear on the Bible in court, goes against what the nation's founding fathers wanted. Now, I know it doesn't say anything about it in the constitution, but they didn't want the church and the state to become one, but it seems that that's what's happening.

[Link04]

Originally posted by Will@Dec 2 2004, 07:27 PM
It should be taken out, and it should have never been there in the first place. The country was founded on the basis of the separation of the church and the state, which is the entire reason the pilgrims came to America in the first place. To be forced to say "under God" in the pledge, or even to be fored to swear on the Bible in court, goes against what the nation's founding fathers wanted. Now, I know it doesn't say anything about it in the constitution, but they didn't want the church and the state to become one, but it seems that that's what's happening.
Well, though I agree, this nation was not founded under those ideals, rather, our society has developed into them. By viewing at a copy of the Declaration of Independance, you can clearly see from the preamble and the "New Theory of Government" intro, that they mention God and a Divine Providence, which we don't believe should be mixed with government today. By "all men are created equal", they really ment white, property owning, religious men. But again, because of our developing society, it changed. People didn't come to this nation to separate church and government entirely, they primarily came so that they didn't have to pay taxes to a certain church they didn't follow. They came to America to mix their own religion with their own simple form of government. Persecution and discrimination still occured for many of those early years, until movements like the Toleration Act were passed, AGAIN, as our society developed.

That being said, I do think it should be taken out because of our developing society. I think we've reached the point where, more than ever, our government should show religious impartiality.

[Vampire]

It was a never an issue before, why suddenly an issue now? People just like to make a big deal out of anything they can get their fingers on. Just fucking leave. Don't like it? Don't say "God" when you recite the pledge. Hell, don't even say it.

[Link04]

Originally posted by Vampire@Dec 2 2004, 09:30 PM
It was a never an issue before, why suddenly an issue now? People just like to make a big deal out of anything they can get their fingers on. Just fucking leave. Don't like it? Don't say "God" when you recite the pledge. Hell, don't even say it.
Again, our society is constantly evolving. Just because it was never an issue before, doesn't mean it shouldn't be one now. Slavery was never an issue either before someone spoke out against it.

[Vampire]

Originally posted by Link04+Dec 2 2004, 01:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Link04 @ Dec 2 2004, 01:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Vampire@Dec 2 2004, 09:30 PM
It was a never an issue before, why suddenly an issue now? People just like to make a big deal out of anything they can get their fingers on. Just fucking leave. Don't like it? Don't say "God" when you recite the pledge. Hell, don't even say it.
Again, our society is constantly evolving. Just because it was never an issue before, doesn't mean it shouldn't be one now. Slavery was never an issue either before someone spoke out against it. [/b][/quote]
How are you gonna compare slavery to a word in a pledge? People are just easily sculped by anything the media throws at them. Parents never cared before but as soon as someone brings it up, they go, "oh yeah, you're right -- take it out! LOL!"

[Willstar]

Where in the world did he compare it? He said that slavery was never an issue until someone spoke out against it, just like the phrase "under God" in the pledge. It was an example. Don't put words into other people's mouths.

[Link04]

Originally posted by Vampire+Dec 2 2004, 09:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Vampire @ Dec 2 2004, 09:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -Link04@Dec 2 2004, 01:34 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--Vampire@Dec 2 2004, 09:30 PM
It was a never an issue before, why suddenly an issue now? People just like to make a big deal out of anything they can get their fingers on. Just fucking leave. Don't like it? Don't say "God" when you recite the pledge. Hell, don't even say it.
Again, our society is constantly evolving. Just because it was never an issue before, doesn't mean it shouldn't be one now. Slavery was never an issue either before someone spoke out against it.
How are you gonna compare slavery to a word in a pledge? People are just easily sculped by anything the media throws at them. Parents never cared before but as soon as someone brings it up, they go, "oh yeah, you're right -- take it out! LOL!" [/b][/quote]
Because the word CAN be interpreted as completely contradicting to the constitution, where the government says it shall not raise up, nor put down another religion. Although this was not always (actually, hardly) followed through our history, people who want to live to that ideal are actually trying to do something about it. And you missed the principle I brought up about slavery. I never said the issues themselves were similar at all, but they never BECAME issues until someone spoke out against it.

[Vampire]

Originally posted by Link04+Dec 2 2004, 01:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Link04 @ Dec 2 2004, 01:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -Vampire@Dec 2 2004, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by -Link04@Dec 2 2004, 01:34 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--Vampire@Dec 2 2004, 09:30 PM
It was a never an issue before, why suddenly an issue now? People just like to make a big deal out of anything they can get their fingers on. Just fucking leave. Don't like it? Don't say "God" when you recite the pledge. Hell, don't even say it.
Again, our society is constantly evolving. Just because it was never an issue before, doesn't mean it shouldn't be one now. Slavery was never an issue either before someone spoke out against it.
How are you gonna compare slavery to a word in a pledge? People are just easily sculped by anything the media throws at them. Parents never cared before but as soon as someone brings it up, they go, "oh yeah, you're right -- take it out! LOL!"
Because the word CAN be interpreted as completely contradicting to the constitution, where the government says it shall not raise up, nor put down another religion. Although this was not always (actually, hardly) followed through our history, people who want to live to that ideal are actually trying to do something about it. And you missed the principle I brought up about slavery. I never said the issues themselves were similar at all, but they never BECAME issues until someone spoke out against it. [/b][/quote]
I don't see why it needs to be taken out and be ruined for the rest of us who have no problem with it all. Like I said: just don't say "God" or don't recite the entire pledge.

[Todd]

Originally posted by Vampire@Dec 2 2004, 03:44 PM

I don't see why it needs to be taken out and be ruined for the rest of us who have no problem with it all. Like I said: just don't say "God" or don't recite the entire pledge.
I don't see why it needs to stay and ruin it for athiests who do have a problem with it. They can take it out and you can still say under god when you recite the pledge

[Doctor Manhattan]

Sure, why not.

I don't really care if 'Under God' is taken out or not. We don't say the Pledge at my school, so I'm not affected by it.

And I personally don't care anymore. I figure if they wanted 'Under God' to be in the Pledge when they first created it, then if it's a problem now, then why didn't people complain then?

I just think it's people wanting to start shit.

And please, don't argue with my opinion. My opinion might be misinformed, but it's still my opinion, and I like it the way it is, since this matter isn't Life or Death, unlike the President situation.

[Whimsicality]

Originally posted by Vampire@Dec 2 2004, 05:30 PM
It was a never an issue before, why suddenly an issue now? People just like to make a big deal out of anything they can get their fingers on. Just fucking leave. Don't like it? Don't say "God" when you recite the pledge. Hell, don't even say it.
It was never an issue before because it wasn't even included in the pledge until the 50s. Now people are saying "Do we really still need this? Did we ever?"

From CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/06/27/national/main513592.shtml):
In 1954, the words "under God" were added, after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, a Catholic men's service organization, and other religious leaders who sermonized that the pledge needed to be distinguished from similar orations used by "godless communists."

The prospect of atomic war between world superpowers so moved President Dwight D. Eisenhower that he directed Congress to add the two small but controversial words.

"From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and every rural school house, the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty," Eisenhower wrote at the time.

[Vampire]

Originally posted by Whimsicality+Dec 2 2004, 03:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Whimsicality @ Dec 2 2004, 03:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Vampire@Dec 2 2004, 05:30 PM
It was a never an issue before, why suddenly an issue now? People just like to make a big deal out of anything they can get their fingers on. Just fucking leave. Don't like it? Don't say "God" when you recite the pledge. Hell, don't even say it.
It was never an issue before because it wasn't even included in the pledge until the 50s. Now people are saying "Do we really still need this? Did we ever?"

From CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/06/27/national/main513592.shtml):
In 1954, the words "under God" were added, after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, a Catholic men's service organization, and other religious leaders who sermonized that the pledge needed to be distinguished from similar orations used by "godless communists."

The prospect of atomic war between world superpowers so moved President Dwight D. Eisenhower that he directed Congress to add the two small but controversial words.

"From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and every rural school house, the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty," Eisenhower wrote at the time. [/b][/quote]
It's been fine for 50 years, we don't need another change. What's the big deal? Just don't recite it.

[Todd]

Originally posted by Vampire@Dec 2 2004, 09:04 PM
It's been fine for 50 years, we don't need another change. What's the big deal? Just don't recite it.
Yes we do need another change. If things didn't change, black people would still be slaves, women wouldn't have half as many rights as men and kids would not be in school and working to support their family instead.

[Jila]

i think not only should "under god" be taken out of the pledge, i believe the ceremony should not have to be recited it schools. i just transfered to a different 4th period and she told me to stand for the pledge, so i wrote her a 2 page letter on why i shouldnt. if we didnt have to do this shit in class things like this wouldnt happen. this is a little section of what i wrote about the "under god" part:

Second, I am an atheist and I really have a problem with the fact that “under God” is in the pledge of allegiance. Religion is supposed to be kept out of school, but it is right here in the pledge. Most religious people do not believe it is a big deal when in reality, it is. If the pledge said evolution is why we are here, I am sure the Pledge of Allegiance would have been taken out a long time ago. This country is corrupted with religion and how it is the right way to go, and if anyone does not believe in god, then they are automatically ignorant, misinformed, hopeless, evil, confused, or any other things such as those.

[Kæton]

Originally posted by Vampire@Dec 2 2004, 05:04 PM
Just don't recite it.
Sometimes that's not an option.

During the times I were in public school and had to recite the Pledge, I was forced to say the entire pledge. Had I not, I was given detention or was sent to the principle for insabortination (sp). If my kids are going to be punished for having beliefs that aren't in the pledge, then I think it's not needed.

If in fact there is nothing wrong with "under God," then why is it they do not incorporate any other religion but of that of a "god" which is by default being pointed towards Christianity? I have nothing against it, I don't care, but I do care if my children are going to be critisized or punished for not reciting it as I was. It's unfair to be punished for something like not saying something.

[goso88]

I really don't care one way or another. I think we're just being a little picky. While I see the underlying issue of this "under god" part of the pledge is significant, I think we could direct our energies to something that has a greater effect on people's lives...like gay marriage or something.

[Vampire]

Originally posted by Todd+Dec 2 2004, 07:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Todd @ Dec 2 2004, 07:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Vampire@Dec 2 2004, 09:04 PM
It's been fine for 50 years, we don't need another change. What's the big deal? Just don't recite it.
Yes we do need another change. If things didn't change, black people would still be slaves, women wouldn't have half as many rights as men and kids would not be in school and working to support their family instead. [/b][/quote]
A bit drastic there, Todd. Woosa.

At this rate, we'll have our money re-done as well.

Keaton, in that case, laws should be implicated where if children have a note from the parent, they don't need to recite the pledge.

[Todd]

Originally posted by Vampire@Dec 3 2004, 04:50 AM

A bit drastic there, Todd. Woosa.
No, it isn't drastic. its an example. If this country didn't change with society, thats what would be going on today.


And as for the money, the word god should be removed from that too

[Kæton]

Originally posted by Vampire@Dec 3 2004, 12:50 AM
Keaton, in that case, laws should be implicated where if children have a note from the parent, they don't need to recite the pledge.
That still doesn't make it any better. Even in the event the child is excused, it is still singling them out. The only difference is the fact the kid has parental back up. I barely said the pledge at the point I found it useless, and only did so so that people wouldn't mock me or that I wouldn't find myself in the office. It was as they put, "undiscussable and was just part of the everyday school day." When in fact that is true, the fact does not change the technicallity that it might offend others. Stating that we as the United States are under the watch of a "god" can and probably does come off as if we all believe in the same thing, whereas those of other religions may not see it that way.

Those who believe in Buddah, or those who believe in Allah as their gods or even those who believe they are their own gods, I think the pledge just comes off wrongly in general. I was and still am indeed mocked for not having a religious belief, and with that, you can't assume by any means that all will agree, I don't expect some to agree with me (obviously) but there still remains the idea that a child should not have to go through such hard times because he or she does not want to say something.

Maybe I see things differently, but I sure as hell would rather my child grow up to be their own individual with their own opinions and not have to think one way and be punished for not. It's unjustifiable in my opinion. The hardships I went through just because I didn't say two fricken words in the whole damn pledge is down-right moronic and ignorant to me.

It shouldn't have to get to a point where you treat two words as if it were a sickness. There should be no excuse needed to speak your own mind unless necessary, and this is in fact, should and does not require an explaination.

[htep.fan]

Ehm....Why do they have this pledge anyways? I don't say it, because I'm not American, but does reciting these words make you anymore patriotic than anyone else? And why do they make you say this pledge when you already have a national anthem? Do they fear that you don't trust in them anymore or something?

About the "under God" part, I think it should be taken out. This country has many religions, and it wasn't founded over these principles of religion. And if it was, this contry is far away from them. Really far away from them. But if you want to keep "under God", you should have all the right to leave"under God" out.

*prepares for imminent bashing*

[Vampire]

Kæton, just take the "mocking" with a grain a salt and move on. We can't let people picking on us "ruin" our lives. It's just a pledge.

[The Doctor]

If you only knew what he has to put up with everyday, you wouldnt be saying that.

[Vampire]

Originally posted by Nate@Dec 3 2004, 01:00 PM
If you only knew what he has to put up with everyday, you wouldnt be saying that.
If it's bullying, I've been there before. I think we all have. You can't let it get the best of you. It just sucks he's punished by the school for not reciting it. I'd say make the option of reciting it or not, but knowing kids and teens who say "I'm not religious rofl!1!1" no one would then recite it. I like the idea of having a form in the beginning of the year for parents to sign saying they either want or don't want their kid saying the pledge.

[Kæton]

Originally posted by Vampire@Dec 3 2004, 10:54 AM
Kæton, just take the "mocking" with a grain a salt and move on. We can't let people picking on us "ruin" our lives. It's just a pledge.
Okay, well, let me fill you in on what I went through because I didn't say two words.

First off, the school I had it worst in was a school where you were in fights from when you were the youngest of 7 years old. It was a violent environment and there was a basis of Christianity. I also went to a Christian preschool. Through these two school times, I have had to say the pledge. By fourth grade I was beginning to feel that I didn't need to say "under God," because by that time I felt "god" was not indeed watching over me. This was my opinion.

Now before that, every year, the teachers warn us if we do not say the pledge, we would be punished. I decided to go against them anyways because I was brought up to have my own opinions, and nobody should criminalize you for them. Well from the first time on, I was rediculed every single time I didn't say those two words. I remember it clearly. The teacher pulled me in front of the class and continued to try and prove to my class that I was a horrible type of child BECAUSE I didn't say two words. Try being stuck in the front of 35 kids, and having the teacher talk down about you right there and then. It isn't fun or funny or easy to brush off.

I was rediculed every single time. She got so tired of it, she just sent me to the principle because she felt I was being insabordinate (sp). My parents tried to come in and see why it was such a big deal, and they brushed them off claiming it was "undiscussable" like I stated. The kids made it no better. They encouraged the mockery of me not saying two damn words, and growing on what my teachers would tell me.

I wouldn't mind these words, but I would never, in any time of my life, want my child to feel so disgraceful because they didn't say two God damn words. I have taken more mocking than you realize, but this is one that I do not stand for. To be mocked, to be singled out and to be basically criminalized for not saying two words in an entire pledge is an extremely horrible factor. If children are feeling left out because they do not want to say two words, then what reason is there to teach equality in our schools?

Also Vampire, keep in mind this followed me through out my entire life. I still have people to date trying to push me to limits or trying to still single me out because I refuse to believe in a God. People to this date try to pick fights with me, they try to be-little me, and they still try to remind me that I was the laughing stock of homeroom because I didn't say two words.

And yes, we cannot let people pick on us, so this is where I take my stand and say I am for removing something that is a potential disconnection between student and peers. It definately disconnected me from many people, and it was indeed the fact I was singled out for not following Christian beliefs.

And yes, in my school, they made us take part in Christian and Jewish traditions where the school was not supposed to, but they did anyways.

Also take into consideration as I stated in the bullying thread about Chester and the anti-bullying stuff. I never took shit from anyone and I stood my ground every time. The reason I am not religious has been one reason I have been in as many fights as I have been. Because I speak out against it, people find it in themselves to push me and start fights.

It's bad enough kids will pick on other kids for not looking like them, why must there be so many more unnecessary additons to it? I am not over exadurating when I say that the things teachers did and the things that kids did to follow that did push me away from people. I was pushed as far to have to leave my old school because it got so bad.

We shouldn't have to treat what a child believes in as anything more than a personal decision, just like the clothes you wear to school every day. It's not important UNLESS the school requires religious following, then I can see a difference, but if it is a public school and it does not state ANYWHERE that following of a religion is required, it shouldn't be pushed, criminalized, critisized or anything of that matter. If someone has a belief, good for them, but it's not good if you're pressuring a child to do something they don't want to, and if they don't then that still gives no one, ESPECIALLY a teacher, the right to redicule you about it.

[Todd]

Originally posted by Vampire@Dec 3 2004, 03:09 PM
I like the idea of having a form in the beginning of the year for parents to sign saying they either want or don't want their kid saying the pledge.
I like the idea of a law where absolutley no one is forced to say the pledge and you have the choice to say parts of it, all of it, or none of it.......oh wait, there is a law like that. In fact, Keaton, if I were you, next time your school tries to punish you for not saying the pledge, threaten to get lawyers on thier ass.


However, even though I like the ability to only say parts of the pledge, the words under god should still be removed.

[Glenn]

We say it in our school, but I don't really care. If you like it, fine. If you don't, don't say it or just don't say the pledge.

[Vampire]

That was some post Keaton. I've been ridiculed too so I feel your pain. My first 3 teachers told my parents I needed a shrink and they eventually got me an on-school shrink. It was embarrassing when she would come into the class and come and get me for a session because everyone knew where I was going. I was an outcast for about 5-6 years. Not to mention 2 years of horrible rumors in middle school. But hey, we all move on from those problems and learn from them.

Regardless, taking out "Under God" won't make your not-believing-in-God problems go away. I still say, leave it in.

[Sylar]

If you don't HAVE to say all the pledge then what's the use in complaining about it?

[Kæton]

Originally posted by Vampire@Dec 3 2004, 01:35 PM
That was some post Keaton. I've been ridiculed too so I feel your pain. My first 3 teachers told my parents I needed a shrink and they eventually got me an on-school shrink. It was embarrassing when she would come into the class and come and get me for a session because everyone knew where I was going. I was an outcast for about 5-6 years. Not to mention 2 years of horrible rumors in middle school. But hey, we all move on from those problems and learn from them.

Regardless, taking out "Under God" won't make your not-believing-in-God problems go away. I still say, leave it in.
It's not the fact I'm holding on to the past. That's not my point. The point I am trying to make is it's happened already and I can't change it, but I would hate to hear my child come home telling me that they don't want to go to school anymore because of something as stupid as not saying something.

I agree that won't change much, but I have seen first hand how it can put a person in a horrible, horrible position. The fact still remains that it plays a role in the outcasting of individuals, and totally depletes the fact a child should feel as equal in the school environment. A teacher is not supposed to parade something as such in the front of the class in my opinion, because it shouldn't matter, so thus I feel strongly towards removing it in a whole rather than having the chances of it happenening to someone else.

[Vampire]

Originally posted by Kæton+Dec 3 2004, 04:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Kæton @ Dec 3 2004, 04:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Vampire@Dec 3 2004, 01:35 PM
That was some post Keaton. I've been ridiculed too so I feel your pain. My first 3 teachers told my parents I needed a shrink and they eventually got me an on-school shrink. It was embarrassing when she would come into the class and come and get me for a session because everyone knew where I was going. I was an outcast for about 5-6 years. Not to mention 2 years of horrible rumors in middle school. But hey, we all move on from those problems and learn from them.

Regardless, taking out "Under God" won't make your not-believing-in-God problems go away. I still say, leave it in.
It's not the fact I'm holding on to the past. That's not my point. The point I am trying to make is it's happened already and I can't change it, but I would hate to hear my child come home telling me that they don't want to go to school anymore because of something as stupid as not saying something.

I agree that won't change much, but I have seen first hand how it can put a person in a horrible, horrible position. The fact still remains that it plays a role in the outcasting of individuals, and totally depletes the fact a child should feel as equal in the school environment. A teacher is not supposed to parade something as such in the front of the class in my opinion, because it shouldn't matter, so thus I feel strongly towards removing it in a whole rather than having the chances of it happenening to someone else. [/b][/quote]
Honestly, and this may come out fucked up but here I go, your parents should have done something about this. There's no way in hell I'm gonna let some teacher make an ass out of my child. It doesn't mean all teachers are like that, Keaton. It doesn't mean everyone goes through your problem.

BuriedxTragedy, you said it best.

[Kæton]

Originally posted by Vampire@Dec 3 2004, 02:42 PM
Honestly, and this may come out fucked up but here I go, your parents should have done something about this. There's no way in hell I'm gonna let some teacher make an ass out of my child. It doesn't mean all teachers are like that, Keaton. It doesn't mean everyone goes through your problem.
I could keep trying to for some odd reason try to convince you otherwise, but this is not worth my time and effort.

Bottom line: I don't like it, I never will like it, and I don't want to discuss why anymore. If what I said so far isn't enough to have any sense of realization, then so be it, I'm not going to bend over backwards to prove anything to anyone for no reason at all. My problems exceed understanding from people like Vampire, but that's okay, I don't expect you to, but with that said, leave it alone already. You won't prove me wrong, you don't understand, and you can't, because you weren't there and you have not experienced it like I have.

It was a problem then, and I'll take extreme measures with my children if it happens. You just put a judgement on my parents without even knowing them Vampire, and that was very disrespectful. It doesn't matter how much I explained with what my parents did for me, they did a lot, and I never once talked down about them in this thread because they tried their hardest, but that does not give you right to blame my parents without reason but your assumption.

I take family seriously, and that was disrespectful to hear. It's a personal reason I am not going to talk about as to why nothing could be done, so don't ever pass that type of judgement on me or my family without knowing the whole story. Next time you are about to assume something, make sure you know the aspects of it before doing so because I found that to be quite offensive. I would think differently had I actually talked down about my parents or put any blame on them, but I didn't, and they don't/didn't deserve that.

I used my experience as an example. Not something that gave you permission to pry and disassemble at your well being. I never once asked for your opinion on who to blame because I knew there were things I left out on purpose, so I do find it offensive you took your own initiative to blame someone without full knowledge of the situation. I already stated my parents tried to the best of their abilities, but were shot down with reasons, some I could and could not speak about.

And yeah, maybe this is a rare problem, but nobody should have to even fear this type of problem. I'm not stupid, either. I have had a large variety of teachers in my lifetime, but the fact still remains those with strong religious backgrounds are taking wrong extremes for the wrong reasons.

[Vampire]

Why does every fucking thread have to be about proving someone wrong or right? There is no universal right/wrong answer to this Keaton. Were you expecting me to go, "Aww Keaton, you're right! Let's take it out!" And I wasn't about to pity you because I can't stand people who pity me. I thought you and I were having a great conversation here and you suddenly turn around and walk out because I apparently, don't see it exactly your way. Of course I don't! Do you expect me to? This is my opinion on the subject -- I respected your's, how about mine? Just because it's different than everyone else's -- just because I'm always the one to disagree in every topic, I get shit? I'm sick and tired of this. Fine. Walk away. There's no need to storm out of this as if my intentions were to make you look like you were wrong or an ass or something. I'm merely contributing to the topic. I'm not expecting you to change your views and vice versa.

[Kæton]

I don't expect pity. You just took it to a point where I don't expect people who don't know a full story to go.

I already know you're headstrong, you're not going to change, and neither am I, so I am walking away from this to stop myself from repeating and trying to have to reapply myself to a situation I dispise with a passion.

[Vampire]

Originally posted by Kæton@Dec 3 2004, 05:09 PM
I don't expect pity. You just took it to a point where I don't expect people who don't know a full story to go.

I already know you're headstrong, you're not going to change, and neither am I, so I am walking away from this to stop myself from repeating and trying to have to reapply myself to a situation I dispise with a passion.
You can't expect me to know everything about you, Keaton. I made some statements that clearly have offended you. I apologize because apparently I don't know all the facts. Should I, though?

[Kæton]

I never wanted you to make a judgement on it. Had I know you were going to make some judgement on my situation, I would have never even came to the thread with my experience. I don't epxect you to know me, and frankly it doesn't matter to me.

But that doesn't excuse the fact there was an offensive judgement made. But again I say, I did not bring up my experience for anyone to dissect at their will. My intentions on sharing what's gone on in my life isn't to get pity, it isn't to get anything but people to realize it has a horrible side to it.

There are things I rather not share with public boards nor with people I don't know personally, and I don't care if they know it or not from somewhere else, but what I do expect from people is to have atleast some respect as to not assume things without proper knowledge. Never have I passed judgement on someone by hearing a piece of something if I know there must be more to it because that bit could make the difference.

[Vampire]

Well I now know the "horrible" side to it. Thanks for sharing your stories.

[goso88]

Hmmm...perhaps if it gets people this fired up, it is an important issue after all. I never actually had to deal with any problems arising from the pledge...so I've never really looked at it is anything that affected my life. But I can see it does affect other people's lives, so its still important. After all, it doesn't have to be everybodys problem or a problem that doesn't affect me to be a problem that needs to be taken care of. If I was to choose, I would choose to have the "under god" taken out.

[Sludge Factory]

America was founded on the basis and principles of the Bible. Our founding fathers were very religous people (spending hours at church every Sunday) and incorperated that into the formation of the United States. Also, I'd say the vast majority of Americans are religious and have some form of religion which worships God. So I say to the athiests, quit your b****ing and deal with it no one is forcing you to say it anyway. ;)

[Mark]

Originally posted by Sludge Factory@Dec 4 2004, 12:08 PM
America was founded on the basis and principles of the Bible.* Our founding fathers were very religous people (spending hours at church every Sunday) and incorperated that into the formation of the United States.* Also, I'd say the vast majority of Americans are religious and have some form of religion which worships God.* So I say to the athiests, quit your b****ing and deal with it no one is forcing you to say it anyway.* ;)
When they say "under god", they're talking about the christian god. I'm sure anyone else of any other religion would find it offensive to be pledging allegiance to the christian god for whom they don't worship. "One nation under god" tramples on all people of varying religions when they're forced to recite it. I'm sure they don't want to be living in a country which denies recognition of other people's religions. As for your comment on no one being forced to recite it, that's a lie. Many people are discriminated against for not reciting that part (i.e: Keaton).

But, with that said, it's kind of a time waster to ask for the words to be removed. Since the majority of all government officials are most liekly christians, it would never pass.

[Todd]

Originally posted by Sludge Factory@Dec 4 2004, 09:38 AM
America was founded on the basis and principles of the Bible. Our founding fathers were very religous people (spending hours at church every Sunday) and incorperated that into the formation of the United States. Also, I'd say the vast majority of Americans are religious and have some form of religion which worships God. So I say to the athiests, quit your b****ing and deal with it no one is forcing you to say it anyway. ;)
Back then, being athiest or believing in a god other than the christan god was unheard of. Times have changed and they must remove those 2 fucking words from the pledge

[Link04]

Originally posted by Sludge Factory@Dec 4 2004, 03:38 PM
America was founded on the basis and principles of the Bible. Our founding fathers were very religous people (spending hours at church every Sunday) and incorperated that into the formation of the United States. Also, I'd say the vast majority of Americans are religious and have some form of religion which worships God. So I say to the athiests, quit your b****ing and deal with it no one is forcing you to say it anyway. ;)
That was then. This is now. As I've been saying, our society is constantly evolving and diversifying to the point where the government should remain impartial to all religions.

[Whimsicality]

Originally posted by Link04+Dec 4 2004, 08:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Link04 @ Dec 4 2004, 08:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Sludge Factory@Dec 4 2004, 03:38 PM
America was founded on the basis and principles of the Bible. Our founding fathers were very religous people (spending hours at church every Sunday) and incorperated that into the formation of the United States. Also, I'd say the vast majority of Americans are religious and have some form of religion which worships God. So I say to the athiests, quit your b****ing and deal with it no one is forcing you to say it anyway. ;)
That was then. This is now. As I've been saying, our society is constantly evolving and diversifying to the point where the government should remain impartial to all religions. [/b][/quote]
1) The Founding Fathers did not write the pledge
2) "Under God" wasn't added until the 50s

It is a common misconception that the Pledge of Allegiance was written as it is said today. Let us clear up that misconception right now. The Pledge of Allegiance as it was originally written goes like this:

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

This was as it appeared in a Boston based magazine called "The Youth's Companion" back in 1892. The words were put there for students to repeat on Columbus Day. The magazine's circulation manager, Francis Bellamy, wrote it. Columbus Day fell on October 12, 1892 and children recited the Pledge of Allegiance - beginning the tradition of reciting the Pledge of Allegiance at the beginning of each school day.

On June 14, 1923, at a National Flag Conference in Washington, the Pledge of Allegiance was modified. The words "my flag" were replaced with "the flag of the United States of America."

In 1942 Congress officially recognized the Pledge of Allegiance.

In 1943 the Supreme Court ruled that school children could not be forced to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

In June of 1954 the words "under God" were added. President Dwight Eisenhower said,

"In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war."

Full Article (http://www.alabamaatheist.org/awareness/questions/pledge.htm)

This isn't something I personally feel to strongly about, since you legally don't have to say the pledge in any situation, but were it to come down to a vote (and I was legally old enough to do so :P ) I would vote to take it out.

[erasethepain]

If you don't have the respect to let someone pray at school, then I don't think you should have any say. I don't believe in god at all, but I respect others beliefs.

[Sylar]

Can someone explain why it's such a big deal?


I honestly don't understand. :wth:

[Soulcrasher-X]

Religion + politic = troubles

[Whimsicality]

Originally posted by J Money@Dec 5 2004, 09:28 AM
If you don't have the respect to let someone pray at school, then I don't think you should have any say. I don't believe in god at all, but I respect others beliefs.
This has nothing to do with praying in school. As far as I know anyone is welcome to pray in school. The issue is that many athiests feel that our country's Pledge should be secular, the way it was when it was written.

[Jila]

i thought there was a rule against doing religious stuff during school hours.

[Doctor Manhattan]

Originally posted by PyRoMaNiaK@Dec 5 2004, 05:57 PM
i thought there was a rule against doing religious stuff during school hours.
I believe that's only a few schools.

I know in my school, we talk about Jesus sometimes. But then we talk about Evolution too, so yeah.

[Todd]

Originally posted by PyRoMaNiaK@Dec 5 2004, 05:57 PM
i thought there was a rule against doing religious stuff during school hours.

The law states that in a public school, the school can't say, "OK everyone, we're going to have a 5 minute break between classes so everyone can pray" and stuff like that, they cant set aside time for praying, they cant hang religious symbols in the school or preach religion, shit like that. But if you want to pray silently before a test or something, you can, but it cant be school supported.

I pray before tests all the time, usually something along the lines of "god dammit if I don't get an A on this test I'm fucking fucked." :lol:

[The Doctor]

See how easily things can be resolved with a few clicks of a mouse button? ;)

[adelleda]

Originally posted by Nate@Dec 5 2004, 09:39 PM
See how easily things can be resolved with a few clicks of a mouse button? ;)
Whoa, everything's gone! Good job Nate :thumbsup:

I'll say that Under Good should be taken out, for the simple explaination that church and state should be seperate.