Teenage Mother Kills Newborn! [Archive]

Odaton

11-29-2004, 08:46 PM

Originally posted by iamrighthereandnow@Nov 29 2004, 11:22 AM
vampire is right, abortion might be better option in that case then murder, but before abortion does come irresponsible behaviour. if she werent irresponsible in the first place, she wouldnt be pregnant! dont think abortion is a good birth control. bit drastic, it can be much easier by using other birth control methods then that!
@ You and Vampire: Blaming the child on the mother is a VERY cold remark. What if she was earning a living as a prostitute, or she was raped? If thats not the case, no mention is made about the baby's father, who probably pressured the mother into having sex with him in the first place. :wth:

You also must realize that birth control methods may not have been widespread in Hong Kong, and it could have been a poor area where they didn't have the money to get contraceptives. Some of us aren't nearly as fortunate as ourselves. <_<

First of all, there needs to be a premium on education and literacy in order to make sure people know that having a baby at an early age is usually disastrous for the mother and the child (the father of course, takes no responsibility). This is why she threw it out the window! I mean, she is still a child and has no ability to take care of a baby without ruining her life over it, unless she has tons of support from her relatives. She probably didn't have that or she wouldn't of panicked at that. Contraceptives should also be introduced/made more accepted in more countries where old traditions die hard.

About abortions...I believe in abortions, but only to a certain point. I don't think its the cure-all for premature pregnancy but with some research they should probably draw a line at when they should stop doing abortions (like 2-3 months or so). On top of that, the government should promote tolerance to make sure abortions are more acceptable, more so for those with strictly religous beliefs. I think abortions should be for really big accidents, those who are prostitutes, or for people who have been raped.

Please, go into a little more thought than blaming it on the mother. What I hate about news is that they don't analyse the situation and in this case they make the mother out to be this cruel murder when even though she did murder someone (and I am not endorsing this kind of behaviour) there is much more to it than that.
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This sounds like a bona fide US news story, for sure. I think, Mark, that we should put a bit more "Canadian"ness in the SC :P

edit: Hybrid soldier, you got in while i was writing all this, good point ;)

Link04

11-29-2004, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by Neil@Nov 29 2004, 01:06 PM
It's funny how religion doesn't permit abortion, but they also get extremely angry if you have a child and you don't want it. Just a thought.
Actually, Neil, that's incorrect. I'm assuming you're talking about Christianity on this one. Most people don't know it, but there is virtually NO evidence in the Bible condemning abortions, or the practicing thereof. In fact, it's more of the "Christian Culture" that incorrectly generalized all abortion as a murderous wrong. If anyone would like to try and prove me wrong, I'd love to hear it.

Doctor Manhattan

11-29-2004, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by Mark@Nov 29 2004, 12:54 PM
These forums are starting to feel too much like the American media. Too many death stories and not enough life-saving/improving ones. Let's try to have an equilibrium.
I search for the interesting stories. I don't find some dude saving someone elses life interesting.

I'm twisted.

Link04

11-29-2004, 09:50 PM

I posted the thing about the pandas...... :mellow:

Vampire

11-29-2004, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by Odaton@Nov 29 2004, 12:46 PM
@ You and Vampire: Blaming the child on the mother is a VERY cold remark. What if she was earning a living as a prostitute, or she was raped? If thats not the case, no mention is made about the baby's father, who probably pressured the mother into having sex with him in the first place. :wth:
So I should pity someone who's a slut? Hahahahaha. Raped but decided to do nothing about it for 9 months? And the father pressuring the mother -- so I should not feel anger towards her but the father? Right, it's all the father's fault. The only point I was making is that abortion is not a way out unless you were raped -- otherwise, be responsible.

Link04

11-29-2004, 10:05 PM

Firstly, have you ever thought that abortion clinics may not be available in some sections of Hong Kong? Maybe if they were she would have done something about it withing 9 months. Secondly, the woman has the right to choose whether a life develops within her body or not.

Vampire

11-29-2004, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by Link04@Nov 29 2004, 02:05 PM
Firstly, have you ever thought that abortion clinics may not be available in some sections of Hong Kong? Maybe if they were she would have done something about it withing 9 months. Secondly, the woman has the right to choose whether a life develops within her body or not.
She sure does have the right but maybe she should do it when she's ready. Obviously, if you're throwing a child over your balcony after it's born, you're not ready to have a kid and anyone with common sense can tell you that. I don't see how abortion (killing the child) is a better alternative than dumping it over a balcony (killing the child).

Link04

11-30-2004, 01:26 AM

Alright. I will answer your question if you can prove to me that a fetus is indeed a "child." There's a very fine line, between "life" and "person." Killing a person is murder. Murder is illigal. But is a fetus a life or a person? In my opinion, it is not a person, but a life. A life that the woman has the right to terminate within a certain window of immaturity. Throwing a born child person over a balcony is murder. But a premature fetus? Is that really, aslo, murder? I am open minded though, I ask you to please prove to me that a fetus is a person.

Vampire

11-30-2004, 01:40 AM

Fetus: In humans, the unborn young from the end of the eighth week after conception to the moment of birth, as distinguished from the earlier embryo.

Young: Being in an early period of life, development, or growth: offspring.

Offspring: A child of particular parentage.

Child: An unborn infant; a fetus.

Infant: A child in the earliest period of life, especially before he or she can walk.

Life: The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.

organisms: An individual form of life, such as a plant, animal, bacterium, protist, or fungus; a body made up of organs, organelles, or other parts that work together to carry on the various processes of life.

Animal: A human considered with respect to his or her physical, as opposed to spiritual, nature.

Murder: The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

Link04

11-30-2004, 01:56 AM

According to most dictionaries, (Webster's included), murder is defined as the unlawful killing of a human person at the hands of another human person, especially with malice aforethought.

So that still leaves the question:
Is a "child" in the womb, a human person.

We can't get a straight answer from any dictionary on this one. According to some of their definitions companies like Dell are "a person", so I turn to logic instead.

Premise, Fact 1: Human persons possess a functioning brain.
Premise, Fact 2: Human embryo's and fetus' up until the third triemester do not possess a functioning brain.

Conclusion, deduced fact: Human embryo's and fetus's up until the third trimester are not human persons.

Ok, so we've established this as fact. You could still make the case that when a baby passes the third trimester mark, it is a human person. If you wanted to argue that, I would have a hard time making a rebuttle. However, according to the NAF (National Abortion Federation) over 90% of all abortions occur in the first two trimesters, when the life is not a human person. From these established facts and figures, we can now say that over 90% of all abortions are, indeed, not murder. Is that grounds to make the whole practice illigal? Of course not, if only 10% of all abortions could be called murder.

But are the last percentage of abortions even murder? In reality, only a handful of doctors in the United States will perform an abortion in these late stages, and are predominantly done when there are either serious complications of the human child, and/or serious complications to the health of the mother. Would you rather lose one life or two?

If you chose two, then YOU, are the murderer.

Vampire

11-30-2004, 02:07 AM

I agree with your information.

I have to say that I am not against abortion. I'm only pro-life if the decision comes because there is no other option. Other than that, if some little girl fucked around with her boyfriend and got pregnant and panicked, throwing it out the window, I have no remorse. But then again, we don't have all the facts in this situation -- my example is merely hypothetical.

Link04

11-30-2004, 02:10 AM

Yeah, I can definitely see that point of view. But a child IS a very large burder, most definitely life altering, possibly life ruining if gone through with at a young age. All we can do is hope they learn from experience.

Vampire

11-30-2004, 02:13 AM

She'll have plenty of time to learn in prison, I'm sure. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Link04

11-30-2004, 02:16 AM

Yes, in this specific case. I was talking about abortion though. It's still legal, and people are going to excersize that right.

LPro

11-30-2004, 04:42 AM

I agree with odaton. No one should really be pointing fingers at anyone since we don't really know what was going through that girl's mind.
I'm not going to comment much on the subject due to the fact i don't really know what happened, except what Rohan posted.
I'm pro abortion, and if it's too late i'm pro-adoption. Because IMO it isn't a human if hasn't been born yet.
Also, that girl needs more psychiatric help, than being thrown to jail.

Vampire

11-30-2004, 07:10 AM

Originally posted by LPro@Nov 29 2004, 08:42 PM
Because IMO it isn't a human if hasn't been born yet.
So the day before my sister was born, under your logic, she was not a human, correct? You want to thoroughly explain your comment? I'm sorry if I'm coming off aggressive but I can't let something like that slide without hearing your reasoning. Please, tell me why you feel that way.

Neil

11-30-2004, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by Link04+Nov 29 2004, 04:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Link04 @ Nov 29 2004, 04:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Neil@Nov 29 2004, 01:06 PM
It's funny how religion doesn't permit abortion, but they also get extremely angry if you have a child and you don't want it. Just a thought.
Actually, Neil, that's incorrect. I'm assuming you're talking about Christianity on this one. Most people don't know it, but there is virtually NO evidence in the Bible condemning abortions, or the practicing thereof. In fact, it's more of the "Christian Culture" that incorrectly generalized all abortion as a murderous wrong. If anyone would like to try and prove me wrong, I'd love to hear it. [/b][/quote]
I was referring to most religions in general, but I was pretty sure that Christianity condemned abortion as a sin. You would know more than me though. :)

iamrighthereandnow

11-30-2004, 02:11 PM

i come from what used to be communistic country and even under the regime, abortion was reachable, hong kong is quite a modern city i have few friends living there, if you want something you get it. if you cant be really bothered, you can justify yourself till the end of eternity that it wasnt meant for you and that the society didnt give it to you. if you ask me that is bollocks, blaming is futile, we can reach what we want whatever the circumstances. if you want something enough, if you put effort in, you get it. simple law of this universe, it works.
if you have a brain and heart i would say fetus is human from beginning of having brain developed cos you have a brain, you think, you think, you feel. human beigns are defined by thinking and feeling and consciousness. i had a child in my womb, she was pretty alive and you could sence what they are doing since they start moving, for moving you need brain action. since the scans, those movemens are coordinated and therefore directed consciouslly.
yes it happened, and we can all guess as to her reasons, she will be punished either by law or maybe her own consiousness but there always be people who believe that you cant be human till you enter the world and those of us who believe its already much before that. i have no probs with abortion, people should choose for themselves, personally i prefer to take measures not to get to have to take a choice of abortion. coming from the medical family and knowing what goes on, no thank you. maybe people should be introduced to the details, it would make them go for prevention in the first place. sorry its a bit long now, i shall cut it short next time.

Link04

11-30-2004, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by iamrighthereandnow@Nov 30 2004, 02:11 PM
i come from what used to be communistic country and even under the regime, abortion was reachable, hong kong is quite a modern city i have few friends living there, if you want something you get it. if you cant be really bothered, you can justify yourself till the end of eternity that it wasnt meant for you and that the society didnt give it to you. if you ask me that is bollocks, blaming is futile, we can reach what we want whatever the circumstances. if you want something enough, if you put effort in, you get it. simple law of this universe, it works.
if you have a brain and heart i would say fetus is human from beginning of having brain developed cos you have a brain, you think, you think, you feel. human beigns are defined by thinking and feeling and consciousness. i had a child in my womb, she was pretty alive and you could sence what they are doing since they start moving, for moving you need brain action. since the scans, those movemens are coordinated and therefore directed consciouslly.
yes it happened, and we can all guess as to her reasons, she will be punished either by law or maybe her own consiousness but there always be people who believe that you cant be human till you enter the world and those of us who believe its already much before that. i have no probs with abortion, people should choose for themselves, personally i prefer to take measures not to get to have to take a choice of abortion. coming from the medical family and knowing what goes on, no thank you. maybe people should be introduced to the details, it would make them go for prevention in the first place. sorry its a bit long now, i shall cut it short next time.
When do fetus' start moving in the womb? If they start moving when the brain develops, then it shouldn't be until the third trimester. As I've said, over 90% of abortions happen before that time.

And your "law of the universe" isn't true in the least. If a child is mildly ********, it doesn't matter how much effort they put in, they still won't have the same advantages as non-******** children. If a homeless, jobless man puts in all the effort he can, he still wouldn't become president of the United States without help. Philadelphia and New York are modern cities where you'd think things are available, but in slums and other parts of these cities it is just the opposite; there is NOTHING available; education, abortion clinics, health care, you name it. Not everything relies on effort, it's also dependant on the cards you're dealt, with some things effort just isn't enough.

Edit: Why is 're-tard-ed' in the filter? I wasn't using it in a degrading manner, I was using it correctly.

Vampire

11-30-2004, 09:14 PM

Link04, because most people will use the word incorrectly.

goso88

12-01-2004, 01:21 AM

So I should pity someone who's a slut? Hahahahaha. Raped but decided to do nothing about it for 9 months? And the father pressuring the mother -- so I should not feel anger towards her but the father? Right, it's all the father's fault. The only point I was making is that abortion is not a way out unless you were raped -- otherwise, be responsible.

Vampire, it isn't that simple. If a slut is being a slut because thats the only way she's going to get food on the table for herself, nevermind anyone else like the baby, then yeah, I think there is some call for pity there. As for being raped, its not that simple getting an abortion or just going out and telling someone. It just doesn't happen in one day, and there are SO MANY FACTORS involved, its impossible to tell whats happening, what her situation was/is at that time. And I think the father was pointed out not so that we could dump all the blame on him, but because we were dumping all the blame on the mother. And thats not exactly fair, either.

Yeah, I agree that killing the baby was wrong. What she did was clearly, painfully, obviously wrong, and I think we can all agree on that. I also agree that abortion isn't the only way out. But then its also wrong to go on and make other cold assumptions about her by painting such a simple picture of her situation, because from what resulted, it had to be anything but that.

adelleda

12-01-2004, 01:32 AM

I don't see why you're debating about it, you don't know the circumtances under which the girl got pregrant, so everything is speculation. Is there a link with more info about it?

Vampire

12-01-2004, 01:39 AM

Originally posted by goso88@Nov 30 2004, 05:21 PM
So I should pity someone who's a slut? Hahahahaha. Raped but decided to do nothing about it for 9 months? And the father pressuring the mother -- so I should not feel anger towards her but the father? Right, it's all the father's fault. The only point I was making is that abortion is not a way out unless you were raped -- otherwise, be responsible.

Vampire, it isn't that simple. If a slut is being a slut because thats the only way she's going to get food on the table for herself, nevermind anyone else like the baby, then yeah, I think there is some call for pity there. As for being raped, its not that simple getting an abortion or just going out and telling someone. It just doesn't happen in one day, and there are SO MANY FACTORS involved, its impossible to tell whats happening, what her situation was/is at that time. And I think the father was pointed out not so that we could dump all the blame on him, but because we were dumping all the blame on the mother. And thats not exactly fair, either.

Yeah, I agree that killing the baby was wrong. What she did was clearly, painfully, obviously wrong, and I think we can all agree on that. I also agree that abortion isn't the only way out. But then its also wrong to go on and make other cold assumptions about her by painting such a simple picture of her situation, because from what resulted, it had to be anything but that.
I was going along with other people painting a picture as well. Sorry, I got all caught up.

Regardless, I will never have sympathy for a hooker, I'm sorry. The only point I wanted to make is that she should have been more responsible. 'Tis all.

Madi

12-01-2004, 02:01 AM

Thy shall not murder. One of the ten commandments if you didn't know. I'm not saying that my opion on abortion is that it's wrong or unexceptable but that there is evidence in the Bible to support some Christians that beliefs and opions on abortion.

Link04

12-01-2004, 02:08 AM

Originally posted by Madi@Dec 1 2004, 02:01 AM
Thy shall not murder. One of the ten commandments if you didn't know. I'm not saying that my opion on abortion is that it's wrong or unexceptable but that there is evidence in the Bible to support some Christians that beliefs and opions on abortion.
Really? Why is it murder? I've already defined murder earlier in this thread as the killing of a human person at the hands of another human person, and I've also established that a fetus up to 6 months is not a human person.

And I'd love for you to prove me with concrete evidence from the Bible that abortion is condemned.

Odaton

12-01-2004, 02:37 AM

Originally posted by Vampire@Dec 1 2004, 01:39 AM
I was going along with other people painting a picture as well. Sorry, I got all caught up.

Regardless, I will never have sympathy for a hooker, I'm sorry. The only point I wanted to make is that she should have been more responsible. 'Tis all.
Your one sad person, you know that?

Do you think that she CHOSE to be a prostitute (if she was?)? What if she needed that money to support herself and possibily other family members?

Your ignorance sickens me...

Jila

12-01-2004, 02:50 AM

Originally posted by Vampire@Nov 30 2004, 06:39 PM
Regardless, I will never have sympathy for a hooker, I'm sorry.
who ever said this girl was a hooker or a slut? its ridiculous how youre so quick to judge someone with no given information about her life and with a mere paragraph of an event, you automatically assume what was going on in her life.

blurredxnotes

12-01-2004, 03:28 AM

Originally posted by Odaton+Nov 30 2004, 09:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Odaton @ Nov 30 2004, 09:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Vampire@Dec 1 2004, 01:39 AM
I was going along with other people painting a picture as well. Sorry, I got all caught up.

Regardless, I will never have sympathy for a hooker, I'm sorry. The only point I wanted to make is that she should have been more responsible. 'Tis all.
Your one sad person, you know that?

Do you think that she CHOSE to be a prostitute (if she was?)? What if she needed that money to support herself and possibily other family members?

Your ignorance sickens me... [/b][/quote]
I agree.

Vampire

12-01-2004, 04:06 AM

First of all, Madi what makes you think the girl was Christian? And for the record...*whispers*not everyone is Christian so they don't go by those beliefs.

@ Odaton
Ignorant? Why, because I don't have remorse for someone who fucks for a living to get cash? There's no pity for a hooker. If you feel so bad, go out and give them money right now. Go. They DO choose to be a hooker, genius. Not a very wise choice if you ask me.

@ PyRoMaNiaK
Don't come in here and start talking shit for reading all posts so you don't look completely clueless. The no sympathy for hookers idea was a generalization. I did NOT say this girl was a hooker. I already said I wasn't intending to make up shit about the girl. Don't start making shit up because you decided to read the last 3 posts and then make your contribution.

goso88

12-01-2004, 04:43 AM

They DO choose to be a hooker, genius. Not a very wise choice if you ask me.

Hmm...some hookers have to choose between that or straving. The fact is, its not exactly a choice. If a hooker has an option to get a job but instead chooses to be a hooker, then I'd call that a choice. But sometimes people can't find jobs and they need to support themselves. Supporting yourself, family, food, clothes, a shelter...all that is a necessity, not a choice. And I would feel sorry for people who have to sell their bodies to support themselves, not just because they're a hooker, but also because of why they have to be a hooker. Somehow I don't think I would be saying to them, "Oh, don't expect any pity from me. Its your fault after all. I mean, you could have chosen to give up food instead..." I just dont see that happening.

In fact, I'd even feel sorry for a hooker who actually does have a choice just because of the fact that the person is messing up her life so willingly and stupidly and the fact that she's experienced that in her life.

Vampire

12-01-2004, 05:15 AM

goso88

12-01-2004, 05:27 AM

In a hypothetical situation, why does she even have a family in the first place? She should be more responsible knowing she can't raise a family but she wasn't and now she has to succumb to selling herself to feed her and her child(ren). What kind of example does that set for them?

Gosh, you make the world sound so safe and peachy. The death or incaptiation of your spouse or losing your job could lead you to a state of destitute. I guess someone should have thought of that before they had went and had kids...

Also, what about the homeless and abused? I guess they should have stayed home and dealt with it...

Well, there's the food bank and other such services, you say. I volunteer at a food bank and they turn down homeless people because they need to have an home address and such info before they can be served.

Again, we're painting a pretty world in which there are such pretty and simple solutions. I mean it sounds like people actually have these logical, no brainer choices to make to avoid such bad situations in your world. It seems like whatever bad situation you're in, its your fault that you didn't see these simple methods of avoiding such bad situations and its your fault your not taking simple solutions to solve your problem. ANd yet...I think reality has a knack for complicating things a bit.

Vampire

12-01-2004, 05:31 AM

Originally posted by goso88@Nov 30 2004, 09:27 PM
...and yet...this is reality.
It is reality. Wake up. I have no time to feel sorry for someone who messed up their life or didn't plan ahead. Homeless people and prostitutes are not on my list of feeling sorry for.

goso88

12-01-2004, 05:41 AM

It is reality. Wake up. I have no time to feel sorry for someone who messed up their life or didn't plan ahead. Homeless people and prostitutes are not on my list of feeling sorry for.

Whoa, you know what? Maybe you're right. Maybe there really are people who're going to think being a homeless person or a prostitute as a result of running away from an abusive family you were born into is your fault. Maybe there are people who are going to think that homelessness as a result of the death of a family member or the loss of your job is your fault. Odaton was right...it really is sick.

But anyway, I'm off topic so I'll wait until a more relevant topic comes up to discuss this anymore.

Vampire

12-01-2004, 05:48 AM

Originally posted by goso88@Nov 30 2004, 09:41 PM
But anyway, I'm off topic so I'll wait until a more relevant topic comes up to discuss this anymore.
Finally, thank you.

goso88

12-01-2004, 05:51 AM

Finally, thank you.

Someone had to end it, right? ;)

Vampire

12-01-2004, 05:53 AM

Originally posted by goso88@Nov 30 2004, 09:51 PM
Finally, thank you.

Someone had to end it, right? ;)
Yeah, it was turning into a pointless discussion. It was like arguing over why I like the color black and you going "but you shouldn't like the color black, you should like blue," or something. Some people are just more asshole than others (speaking on behalf of myself).

Madi

12-01-2004, 11:57 PM

Originally posted by Vampire@Dec 1 2004, 04:06 AM
First of all, Madi what makes you think the girl was Christian? And for the record...*whispers*not everyone is Christian so they don't go by those beliefs.

Yeah, I was meant to be replying to Link04, saying that Christians that believe abortion is wrong had evidence from the Bible to support it. Nothing to do with the girl being a Christian. In the end I must have just liked "Add Reply", the LPA server kept on stufffing up on me. It was like my tenth try, sorry.

A similar story to this also happened a few weeks back in Australia where a girl of 17/18 years fell pregant. She denied she was pregant even at 8 months when it was obvious. Nobody did anything about it, including her parents, friends, her ex-boyfriend, neighbours or her school. They completey ignored it. She was in complete denial. She had the child but murdered it straight after. I've been searching for the article on the net but i've had no luck. It was front page of the Herald Sun (Australian Newspaper) almost a month or so ago.

Link04

12-02-2004, 12:39 AM

^ I responded to that post, you may want to take a look.

Madi

12-02-2004, 02:20 AM

Originally posted by Link04@Dec 2 2004, 12:39 AM
^ I responded to that post, you may want to take a look.
I quoted Vampire (clearing up the thing about the girl being a christian), not you.

Anyway some Christians against abortion really believe that that's a human and so therefore they can use that commandment to justify why they are against abortions.

Vampire

12-02-2004, 03:54 AM

Ahh, in that case, Madi, I'm sorry for my post. :D

Ander

12-02-2004, 04:27 AM

Reasons why this is shocking:
1. It was in Hong Kong.
2. They can't call it abortion.

iamrighthereandnow

12-02-2004, 03:31 PM

well i am just gonna add something about something raised here,
i have been homeless, i havent become a hooker, begged or picked food from bins, i havent got into drugs or selling them, i went homeless as my then boyfriend was in the situation, so i went in with him, and i got us all out without resorting to anythig like above. its called will, self worth and determination, if you have it, i have proved that you can be in it, touch no shit and work situation out for the respectful outcome.
if i had a child especially then i would not dare become a hooker, if my kid has just got me, how could i endanger my life so bad that they could loose me. you can get killed by some scum, get aids,and other dangers. how could you put yourself in danger like that just to get food for your kids, so they will be eventually left without you completely anyway. great! why not become a person who has friends to be supported by, , get a any shitty job going but still legal and not self degrading,ev entually get educated for better positions and put yourself thru that rather then becoming a hooker to fend for kids that way.
also there is also adoption, why murder if you can at least give your kid a chance for better life.
you can feel 'fetus' moving on 16 weeks but they move before then. in uk abortion is allowed till 22 weeks of pregnancy and any nurse working in abortion clinics tell you that they are formed then, so its not true that brain develops at last trimester, first trimester more likely. on 8 weeks you already have spine and cells are already doing their business to become fully functioning brain. doesnt take long, you also have a heart about that time, at 12 weeks it can be already detected. in other countries its allowed to 12 weeks of pregnancy and if you are a victim of rape and other special circumstances abortion is allowed as 22 weeks as in uk.....
just thought i would answer some issues raised.

Link04

12-02-2004, 09:30 PM

There may be some form of brain, but as you yourself said, it does not develop to the point of functioning in the first trimester. Secondly, the majority, 58% of abortions, take place withing the first 8 WEEKS.

Edit: Unless you have been a homeless, moneyless, single mother with no where to turn, you cannot properly argue against their position, you simply don't know. If you were a mother would you take the chance of an STD or your child dying of starvation? Not everything is as simple as you make it out to be.

iamrighthereandnow

12-03-2004, 01:33 PM

if you read my post in detail, i have stated that i was homeless, in winter, in eastern capital, -8 degrees, so i bloody well know something about it. and let me also tell you that i am a single mother and i do have to struggle to bring my child on my own and would never turn to being a hooker, if i die my kid will die of starvation unless taken into care anyway, so dont patronize me, being a single mother is a struggle and its as difficult or easy as one makes it.my daughter's father was a crack addict, he would spend the little money there was on drugs so i had to struggle with no money and no food around and the scraps went for my daughter while i didnt eat myself for days and my parents and family are in different country, so not much where to turn to either, i have turned that situation around too, without becoming a hooker either. i am and have been in those situation and talk from my experience. maybe you should take time to read posts you replying to more closely next time before you make your judments. so yes, being a mother i would not endanger my child by loosing the last hope she has which is me who cares for her. there are better ways to provide for her then that and thats is from somebody in all positions you mentioned, so yes i can very well argue my point, have you been there, can you argue its as desperate and unsolvable by respectable means as you argue for? by making their situation seem hopeless and that they have no choice you are actually making people in this sitations victims, vampire voiced his/hers opinion that he/she has no pity for hooker which point i have been trying to come to and he or she got into the 'your so wrong man etc . his or hers attitude is actually more helpful then pity. if somebody pities you and thinks you cannot do any better then where you are lowering yourself into how much are you gonna kick your ass (pardon my french)? if somebody kicks your butt they do you more favour then people pleasers and pity do gooders. you actually empower somebody by telling them the truth in the eye and doing something about it then oh, poor you, you cannot do any better...... how does that help and where does that get you.

plus, 58 % is not a majority, 50% is a half and 8% over 50 doesnt make it majority. 42% abortions that do then happen to beings who are able to think and feel. is still a staggering number, a though, you were once a fetus too. it also could have been you.....anyway i am not advocating abortion or being against it. as i said before i agree with vampire, it all can be prevented at the start (preventing conception at the act)

Vampire

12-03-2004, 09:00 PM

iamrighthereandnow, that was an amazing post. Plus, it helps prove my point: you don't need to resort to prostitution. :)

Glenn

12-03-2004, 10:40 PM

Originally posted by Mark@Nov 29 2004, 02:54 PM
These forums are starting to feel too much like the American media. Too many death stories and not enough life-saving/improving ones. Let's try to have an equilibrium.
Yeah I know...when people saw the title of this, the SERIOUS thread, they really got serious. :lol:

User Name

12-03-2004, 10:44 PM

And that's why we have threads like this (http://www.lpassociation.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=12&t=14370) every so often. :lol:

Link04

12-03-2004, 11:11 PM

Originally posted by iamrighthereandnow@Dec 3 2004, 01:33 PM
if you read my post in detail, i have stated that i was homeless, in winter, in eastern capital, -8 degrees, so i bloody well know something about it. and let me also tell you that i am a single mother and i do have to struggle to bring my child on my own and would never turn to being a hooker, if i die my kid will die of starvation unless taken into care anyway, so dont patronize me, being a single mother is a struggle and its as difficult or easy as one makes it.my daughter's father was a crack addict, he would spend the little money there was on drugs so i had to struggle with no money and no food around and the scraps went for my daughter while i didnt eat myself for days and my parents and family are in different country, so not much where to turn to either, i have turned that situation around too, without becoming a hooker either. i am and have been in those situation and talk from my experience. maybe you should take time to read posts you replying to more closely next time before you make your judments. so yes, being a mother i would not endanger my child by loosing the last hope she has which is me who cares for her. there are better ways to provide for her then that and thats is from somebody in all positions you mentioned, so yes i can very well argue my point, have you been there, can you argue its as desperate and unsolvable by respectable means as you argue for? by making their situation seem hopeless and that they have no choice you are actually making people in this sitations victims, vampire voiced his/hers opinion that he/she has no pity for hooker which point i have been trying to come to and he or she got into the 'your so wrong man etc . his or hers attitude is actually more helpful then pity. if somebody pities you and thinks you cannot do any better then where you are lowering yourself into how much are you gonna kick your ass (pardon my french)? if somebody kicks your butt they do you more favour then people pleasers and pity do gooders. you actually empower somebody by telling them the truth in the eye and doing something about it then oh, poor you, you cannot do any better...... how does that help and where does that get you.

plus, 58 % is not a majority, 50% is a half and 8% over 50 doesnt make it majority. 42% abortions that do then happen to beings who are able to think and feel. is still a staggering number, a though, you were once a fetus too. it also could have been you.....anyway i am not advocating abortion or being against it. as i said before i agree with vampire, it all can be prevented at the start (preventing conception at the act)
I apologize for your situation, but again, you do not represent every woman that has been homeless. That's just where my personal belief comes in. I think certain people are just dealt a certain deck of cards and happen to play them badly, whether you blame it on lack of foresight, or whatever. Sure there ARE better ways, but for many, prostitution is the quick, immediate money they need.

And how in blue hell is 58% not majority? Your reasoning is flawed. 58% is OVER half..that means it's the majority. And that's only the first 8 weeks, a total of 88% of all women who choose to abort their children have it done in the first trimester. Can you speak on behalf of a fetus? Do you know for a fact it can think?

goso88

12-04-2004, 02:40 AM

you actually empower somebody by telling them the truth in the eye and doing something about it then oh, poor you, you cannot do any better...... how does that help and where does that get you.

But what is the truth? It varies from person to person, from situation to situation. Kind of like what Link04 was saying-- one person's truth may not be your truth. I agree with you that pity does not empower a person. However, neither does dumping the blame on the person for all their bad fortune. Here is another point in which I agree with you: doing something about it actually helps. Do pitying do-gooders do something about it or do cold-hearted "realists"? Maybe neither are much help if they sit on their arse and self righteously defend their positions quite comfortably in front of their computers without never having so much as given a morsel of food to a homeless person.

One point is absolutely clear. People who actually get out there and do something, people who actually provide the tools to empower another--hence giving this another the tools to empower yet another-- empowers people. And its undenialbe that there is atleast a kernel of sympathy/empathy/compassion that brings someone--a high school student, a regular citizen, a person who's been and done that-- to do something about the things they self-righteously preach. Sometimes, situations really are hopeless until someone--an respectable employer, a food bank, women's shelter, public interest group, etc-- reaches out and in some way gives this person the necessary resources or support to rise out of their destituion. But can we guarantee that this will be the case for everybody?

iamrighthereandnow

12-04-2004, 02:36 PM

link 04, the science we have today is fantastic and getting updated as we speak. there has also been a lot of neurological research and also a recovered memory researches and some were pretty amazed that even you, yes even you can remember experiences from where you were fetus. 58% of people make more then a half, but still i wouldnt call it a majority, but lets not argue about that.
i am not sorry i had that experience, i know if i went thru that and got out, i can give myself respect and it made me to find my power and strenght. and it gave me insight into what its all about. i love experiencing the good in my life, but i dont turn my face from the bad and avoid challenge like hell. i dont seek trouble saying that, but if i have one, i dont complain about it, i set all i have to face it and feel all there is to feel with that, so you dont have to feel sorry for the experience i had. i can see that you care deeply and that your sorry comes from that position, but see that for what it is, for me it was with positive outcome so nothing to say sorry for.

neither i am blaming those who 'play their cards bad', i am just saying that the situation shouldnt be seen as victimised, powerless and that the only thing you could do is go and sell yourself for sex, because you dont, its just a bad choice. if that is their choice i dont take it away from them.

no i do not represent all people in that situation, but you cannot also say those people cannot do otherwise then choose prostitution, fact is some do, but there are a lot of them who don't. and if the rest who resorts to prostituion had somebody getting their confidence and sence of self worth up, they wouldnt do it either. and the fact is there are a lot of people out there who do give their hearts and support to people in that position, i have met a lot of people like that and there are many charities out there who help and homeless people do also help each other out too in whichever way they can, which also represents answer for goso 88. and i did put some voluntary work towards the homeless when i came out with a charity that has helped me out, so personally i dont defend my position just by power of my words.

the fact is there is enough food, enough money to go at least triple around whole globe, question is why is it distributed so bad that these problems even exist.

Link04

12-04-2004, 03:15 PM

I couldn't agree with the last sentence more, but that's a whole other issue in itself.

iamrighthereandnow

12-04-2004, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by Vampire@Dec 3 2004, 09:00 PM
iamrighthereandnow, that was an amazing post. Plus, it helps prove my point: you don't need to resort to prostitution. :)
Vampire,thats why i shared what i did about myself to prove that you had grounds for your point, instead of people jumping the gun and calling you ignorant etc.

FreeYourMind

12-04-2004, 05:30 PM

I guess this woman thought of abortian a little too late.
Horrible

goso88

12-04-2004, 07:15 PM

the fact is there is enough food, enough money to go at least triple around whole globe, question is why is it distributed so bad that these problems even exist.

Which also raises the point that not everybody lives in highly developed countries like the U.S., meaning some people don't quite have the resources/options available that we who live in these countries do.

and the fact is there are a lot of people out there who do give their hearts and support to people in that position, i have met a lot of people like that and there are many charities out there who help and homeless people do also help each other out too in whichever way they can, which also represents answer for goso 88.

Just to clarify something. My question wasn't are there people who help. I know there are; I've met so many people who do. My question was, can we say that everybody in this world certainly has the resources/options that some others do to better their situation? And can we guarantee that? As sad as it sounds, I don't think the current condition of this world allows it.

McLovin

12-05-2004, 11:08 PM

Since China's poverty rate is so high, abortion, morning after pills, condoms, were probably way too expensive for the girl. and nobody knows if she was raped or not. plus, in china, since they have the one-child limit law, people go to extremes until they get a baby that they want. if the last part is the case, then that isn't right, but the other excuses are very reasonable.

plus, when people talk about "what the world is coming to," you have to remember that people have done all kinds of stupid, horrible stuff forever. yet now we have more horrible means to commit these acts with. and now, living in the information age, these horrible acts are well-known.

InsideOfMe

12-06-2004, 03:19 PM

i have a saying, 'If you can't look after yourself, what makes you think you can look after a child?'

Jila

12-06-2004, 11:59 PM

Originally posted by InsideOfMe@Dec 6 2004, 08:19 AM
i have a saying, 'If you can't look after yourself, what makes you think you can look after a child?'
what makes you think she ever wanted a baby?

Vampire

12-07-2004, 12:02 AM

Originally posted by PyRoMaNiaK+Dec 6 2004, 03:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PyRoMaNiaK @ Dec 6 2004, 03:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--InsideOfMe@Dec 6 2004, 08:19 AM
i have a saying, 'If you can't look after yourself, what makes you think you can look after a child?'
what makes you think she ever wanted a baby? [/b][/quote]
Then she should have been responsible. She should have thought before she acted.

Doctor Manhattan

12-07-2004, 12:04 AM

Perhaps she was raped?

Glenn

12-07-2004, 12:06 AM

Originally posted by Casey@Dec 6 2004, 08:04 PM
Perhaps she was raped?
Even then...she should have had sense enough to hold it up for adoption or do something with it besides fucking killing it.

Jila

12-07-2004, 12:07 AM

Originally posted by Vampire+Dec 6 2004, 05:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Vampire @ Dec 6 2004, 05:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -PyRoMaNiaK@Dec 6 2004, 03:59 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--InsideOfMe@Dec 6 2004, 08:19 AM
i have a saying, 'If you can't look after yourself, what makes you think you can look after a child?'
what makes you think she ever wanted a baby?
Then she should have been responsible. She should have thought before she acted. [/b][/quote]
everytime someone fucks doesnt necessarily mean they want a kid

Vampire

12-07-2004, 12:09 AM

Originally posted by PyRoMaNiaK+Dec 6 2004, 04:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PyRoMaNiaK @ Dec 6 2004, 04:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -Vampire@Dec 6 2004, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by -PyRoMaNiaK@Dec 6 2004, 03:59 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--InsideOfMe@Dec 6 2004, 08:19 AM
i have a saying, 'If you can't look after yourself, what makes you think you can look after a child?'
what makes you think she ever wanted a baby?
Then she should have been responsible. She should have thought before she acted.
everytime someone fucks doesnt necessarily mean they want a kid [/b][/quote]
HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA Thanks for proving my point. If you don't want a kid, then don't fuck or use protection. That's the risk you take when you fuck whether you want to except it or not.

As for the maybe she was raped idea? Duffy answered it for me. Do something about it. Don't be a dumbass and let it sit inside you until it's time to give birth and you decide to kill it.

Jila

12-07-2004, 12:11 AM

1. i guess youre not aware that youre not going to be fully protected, with or without birth control.
2. you dont know the circumstances of this girl, maybe she couldnt get an abortion.

Vampire

12-07-2004, 12:17 AM

Originally posted by PyRoMaNiaK@Dec 6 2004, 04:11 PM
1. i guess youre not aware that youre not going to be fully protected, with or without birth control.
2. you dont know the circumstances of this girl, maybe she couldnt get an abortion.
I'm going to kill 2 birds with one stone here:

ADOPTION.

Jila

12-07-2004, 12:23 AM

Originally posted by Vampire+Dec 6 2004, 05:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Vampire @ Dec 6 2004, 05:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--PyRoMaNiaK@Dec 6 2004, 04:11 PM
1. i guess youre not aware that youre not going to be fully protected, with or without birth control.
2. you dont know the circumstances of this girl, maybe she couldnt get an abortion.
I'm going to kill 2 birds with one stone here:

ADOPTION. [/b][/quote]
1. a teenage girls body isnt as developed as an adult to carry a child
2. unless you have to spend 9 months with a parasite living in your uterus followed by a baby coming out of your vagina, you have no right to tell a woman to concieve a child.

Vampire

12-07-2004, 12:26 AM

Originally posted by PyRoMaNiaK+Dec 6 2004, 04:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PyRoMaNiaK @ Dec 6 2004, 04:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -Vampire@Dec 6 2004, 05:17 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--PyRoMaNiaK@Dec 6 2004, 04:11 PM
1. i guess youre not aware that youre not going to be fully protected, with or without birth control.
2. you dont know the circumstances of this girl, maybe she couldnt get an abortion.
I'm going to kill 2 birds with one stone here:

ADOPTION.
1. a teenage girls body isnt as developed as an adult to carry a child
2. unless you have to spend 9 months with a parasite living in your uterus followed by a baby coming out of your vagina, you have no right to tell a woman to concieve a child. [/b][/quote]
I SAID: ADOPTION. READ: ADOPTION. Your last answer was completely irrelevant. So you've had a child before?

Jila

12-07-2004, 12:28 AM

Originally posted by Vampire+Dec 6 2004, 05:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Vampire @ Dec 6 2004, 05:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -PyRoMaNiaK@Dec 6 2004, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by -Vampire@Dec 6 2004, 05:17 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--PyRoMaNiaK@Dec 6 2004, 04:11 PM
1. i guess youre not aware that youre not going to be fully protected, with or without birth control.
2. you dont know the circumstances of this girl, maybe she couldnt get an abortion.
I'm going to kill 2 birds with one stone here:

ADOPTION.
1. a teenage girls body isnt as developed as an adult to carry a child
2. unless you have to spend 9 months with a parasite living in your uterus followed by a baby coming out of your vagina, you have no right to tell a woman to concieve a child.
I SAID: ADOPTION. READ: ADOPTION. Your last answer was completely irrelevant. So you've had a child before? [/b][/quote]
uh, hello? you have to give birth to a child to have it adopted, and so i guess you have no idea how pregnancy works.

your arguments are thoughtless :rolleyes:

Vampire

12-07-2004, 12:30 AM

Originally posted by PyRoMaNiaK+Dec 6 2004, 04:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PyRoMaNiaK @ Dec 6 2004, 04:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -Vampire@Dec 6 2004, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by -PyRoMaNiaK@Dec 6 2004, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by -Vampire@Dec 6 2004, 05:17 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--PyRoMaNiaK@Dec 6 2004, 04:11 PM
1. i guess youre not aware that youre not going to be fully protected, with or without birth control.
2. you dont know the circumstances of this girl, maybe she couldnt get an abortion.
I'm going to kill 2 birds with one stone here:

ADOPTION.
1. a teenage girls body isnt as developed as an adult to carry a child
2. unless you have to spend 9 months with a parasite living in your uterus followed by a baby coming out of your vagina, you have no right to tell a woman to concieve a child.
I SAID: ADOPTION. READ: ADOPTION. Your last answer was completely irrelevant. So you've had a child before?
uh, hello? you have to give birth to a child to have it adopted, and so i guess you have no idea how pregnancy works.

your arguments are thoughtless :rolleyes: [/b][/quote]
Listen, genius, she already had the damn child. She threw it out the window after giving birth. So your argument is invalid in this case. Nice try, though, seriously. I give you like a D- for effort.

Jila

12-07-2004, 12:33 AM

Originally posted by Vampire+Dec 6 2004, 05:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Vampire @ Dec 6 2004, 05:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -PyRoMaNiaK@Dec 6 2004, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by -Vampire@Dec 6 2004, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by -PyRoMaNiaK@Dec 6 2004, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by -Vampire@Dec 6 2004, 05:17 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--PyRoMaNiaK@Dec 6 2004, 04:11 PM
1. i guess youre not aware that youre not going to be fully protected, with or without birth control.
2. you dont know the circumstances of this girl, maybe she couldnt get an abortion.
I'm going to kill 2 birds with one stone here:

ADOPTION.
1. a teenage girls body isnt as developed as an adult to carry a child
2. unless you have to spend 9 months with a parasite living in your uterus followed by a baby coming out of your vagina, you have no right to tell a woman to concieve a child.
I SAID: ADOPTION. READ: ADOPTION. Your last answer was completely irrelevant. So you've had a child before?
uh, hello? you have to give birth to a child to have it adopted, and so i guess you have no idea how pregnancy works.

your arguments are thoughtless :rolleyes:
Listen, genius, she already had the damn child. She threw it out the window after giving birth. So your argument is invalid in this case. Nice try, though, seriously. I give you like a D- for effort. [/b][/quote]
If you don't want a kid, then don't fuck or use protection. That's the risk you take when you fuck whether you want to except it or not.

hmm

Vampire

12-07-2004, 12:36 AM

Originally posted by PyRoMaNiaK+Dec 6 2004, 04:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PyRoMaNiaK @ Dec 6 2004, 04:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -Vampire@Dec 6 2004, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by -PyRoMaNiaK@Dec 6 2004, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by -Vampire@Dec 6 2004, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by -PyRoMaNiaK@Dec 6 2004, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by -Vampire@Dec 6 2004, 05:17 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--PyRoMaNiaK@Dec 6 2004, 04:11 PM
1. i guess youre not aware that youre not going to be fully protected, with or without birth control.
2. you dont know the circumstances of this girl, maybe she couldnt get an abortion.
I'm going to kill 2 birds with one stone here:

ADOPTION.
1. a teenage girls body isnt as developed as an adult to carry a child
2. unless you have to spend 9 months with a parasite living in your uterus followed by a baby coming out of your vagina, you have no right to tell a woman to concieve a child.
I SAID: ADOPTION. READ: ADOPTION. Your last answer was completely irrelevant. So you've had a child before?
uh, hello? you have to give birth to a child to have it adopted, and so i guess you have no idea how pregnancy works.

your arguments are thoughtless :rolleyes:
Listen, genius, she already had the damn child. She threw it out the window after giving birth. So your argument is invalid in this case. Nice try, though, seriously. I give you like a D- for effort.
If you don't want a kid, then don't fuck or use protection. That's the risk you take when you fuck whether you want to except it or not.

hmm [/b][/quote]
Hmm what? You're not proving your point here at all.

The topic at hand is some wacked out girl who threw her child out the window after giving birth. She could have put it up for adoption.

Now, let's say she was raped. Regardless, she could have put the child up for adoption.

Let's say she can't/won't get an abortion. Regardless, she could have put the child up for adoption.

Let's say she was stupid and fucked around with some guy (or he peer pressured her, like it makes a difference) to have sex and then she decided not to do anything about it. Regardless, she could have put the child up for adoption.

Look, I really hate being an asshole about this but everytime I shove adoption in your face, it's like you ignore it. It's a great alternative.

Jila

12-07-2004, 12:49 AM

what the fuck? you cant read? i was referring to the issue about not wanting a child, in any circumstance, not the one about this particular teenage girl.

Originally posted by Vampire+Dec 6 2004, 05:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Vampire @ Dec 6 2004, 05:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by -PyRoMaNiaK@Dec 6 2004, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by -Vampire@Dec 6 2004, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by -PyRoMaNiaK@Dec 6 2004, 03:59 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--InsideOfMe@Dec 6 2004, 08:19 AM
i have a saying, 'If you can't look after yourself, what makes you think you can look after a child?'
what makes you think she ever wanted a baby?
Then she should have been responsible. She should have thought before she acted.
everytime someone fucks doesnt necessarily mean they want a kid
HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA Thanks for proving my point. If you don't want a kid, then don't fuck or use protection. That's the risk you take when you fuck whether you want to except it or not.

As for the maybe she was raped idea? Duffy answered it for me. Do something about it. Don't be a dumbass and let it sit inside you until it's time to give birth and you decide to kill it.[/b][/quote]

then, i said

1. i guess youre not aware that youre not going to be fully protected, with or without birth control.
2. you dont know the circumstances of this girl, maybe she couldnt get an abortion.
and
1. a teenage girls body isnt as developed as an adult to carry a child
2. unless you have to spend 9 months with a parasite living in your uterus followed by a baby coming out of your vagina, you have no right to tell a woman to concieve a child.

see the little numbers? they correspond to each point, which are different. now, ive given you each step to understand this because grasping concepts seem to be awfully difficult for you. instead of telling me how i proved your point or that my argument is invalid, you should stop to think about it first.

Vampire

12-07-2004, 12:51 AM

You know what? Forget it, why bother? You're obviously not even reading my responses at all. PyRoMaNiaK, I give up, this is hopeless.

ADOPTION.

Jila

12-07-2004, 12:57 AM

Originally posted by Vampire@Dec 6 2004, 05:51 PM
You know what? Forget it, why bother? You're obviously not even reading my responses at all. PyRoMaNiaK, I give up, this is hopeless.

ADOPTION.
well i was editing my post to add in the adoption thing on this case because i forgot to. anyways, im pro-choice, not pro-life (and with any of those adoption, not abortion issues), but if the baby is already born, like in this situation, then yes, i think it should be put up for adoption. but then again, i guess she didnt give birth in a hospital where they can actually get the baby from her to put into adoption. the whole story isnt really there, so maybe adoption wasnt possible for some reason.

Link04

12-07-2004, 02:19 AM

Having sex for pleasure is what separates us (and the dolphins, oddly enough) from the rest of the animal kingdom. Simply stated, to deny two people the right to fuck and not want a child is LITERALLY inhuman.

And it seems you're underestimating the trauma that a mother goes through with child birth.

Edit: This is to Vampire, AND I haven't even gone into the effects of foster homes on a child...but that's another story. Plain and simple, a woman shouldn't have to put up with the stress and possibly LIFE THREATENING labor that goes along with child birth. If you want to get technical, abortion is much safer to the mother than child birth itself. According to the NAF, the chance of the mother dying is 11 times greater if she goes through child birth than if she were to abort.

Vampire

12-07-2004, 02:27 AM

Originally posted by Link04@Dec 6 2004, 06:19 PM
Edit: This is to Vampire, AND I haven't even gone into the effects of foster homes on a child...but that's another story. Plain and simple, a woman shouldn't have to put up with the stress and possibly LIFE THREATENING labor that goes along with child birth. If you want to get technical, abortion is much safer to the mother than child birth itself. According to the NAF, the chance of the mother dying is 11 times greater if she goes through child birth than if she were to abort.
So what? That's not your decision to make. I never said I was against abortion. I'm pro-choice but keeping it very limited. And oh please, foster homes may seem bad but at least the child is living.

Link04

12-07-2004, 02:39 AM

I'm saying adoption isn't the end all be all solution, it has many hardships and reprocussions, as well as producing an unwanted child. At the risk of seeming insensitive, foster homes are the homes of unwanted children that were brought into the world reluctantly. Maybe some day a wanting couple will come along and adopt. But either way, that's something huge to loom over a child. Studies have shown that most of these kids tend to have social and emotional problems later in life. Makes their existance seem somewhat...hollow..no? A woman has the right to abort an unwanted child, instead of going through the more risky and traumatic ordeal of child birth.

Vampire

12-07-2004, 02:46 AM

Originally posted by Link04@Dec 6 2004, 06:39 PM
Studies have shown that most of these kids tend to have social and emotional problems later in life. Makes their existance seem somewhat...hollow..no?
Oh puh-lease. "Studies." Like saying that makes your argument any more correct. Look, we all take risks everyday. The entire point I'm trying to make that I've been saying from the beginning is that this girl should have been more responsible. I don't have to know all the facts -- she threw a baby over a balcony -- there's no question she was irresonsible about it. Abortion is one solution so is adoption. Either way, she was wrong. No question.

Jila

12-07-2004, 03:05 AM

you should watch the movie family sins

InsideOfMe

12-07-2004, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by Vampire+Dec 7 2004, 12:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Vampire @ Dec 7 2004, 12:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -PyRoMaNiaK@Dec 6 2004, 03:59 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--InsideOfMe@Dec 6 2004, 08:19 AM
i have a saying, 'If you can't look after yourself, what makes you think you can look after a child?'
what makes you think she ever wanted a baby?
Then she should have been responsible. She should have thought before she acted. [/b][/quote]
THANK YOU!!! If she was raped then okay, very sad, but that's no excuse to kill an innocent. End of.

iamrighthereandnow

12-07-2004, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Link04@Dec 7 2004, 02:39 AM
I'm saying adoption isn't the end all be all solution, it has many hardships and reprocussions, as well as producing an unwanted child.* At the risk of seeming insensitive, foster homes are the homes of unwanted children that were brought into the world reluctantly.* Maybe some day a wanting couple will come along and adopt.* But either way, that's something huge to loom over a child.* Studies have shown that most of these kids tend to have social and emotional problems later in life.* Makes their existance seem somewhat...hollow..no?* A woman has the right to abort an unwanted child, instead of going through the more risky and traumatic ordeal of child birth.
i had a hard childhood of violence and abuse in family and bullying out of it, had a rough ride all along, i dont feel my life at all as hollow, in fact richer, those experiences somehow open your eyes and you treasure things that are good in your life more then people who had never lost them. i see people from good backround families taking things for granted and being unaprociative about what they have, where i say people who had been thru a hell of a lot dont. they worked for everything they have that much harder. and in general are more awake to life, because they worked it the hard way and payed the prize. murdering your kid has more repercussions then adoption. are you saying throwing a kid out of balcony is better then adoption? because she might have left it too long for abortion. maybe all unwanted kids should be dealt that way then? half of the mankind is also a result of accidents, shall we have a poll how many people on this forum had been planned? does it mean those of us who have been unwanted and unplanned have a hollow existence, are screwed up and have social inadequacies? get real.

pyromaniak, i was just out of teen years when i got pregnant, have you been pregnant? i had to have emergency ceasarian, listen, however much it hurts, so what? its so much pain but by the end of it you forget it, and dont underastimate the body's healing abilities, the younger you are the more amazing. i agree with vampire even though i would put myself to be irresponsible by his measures, but i havent thrown my kid out of the balcony, i take responsibility by being the best mother i can be and take full responsibility for my irresposibility upon conception by taking on the consequence by the best means i have. not all women are scared to death by giving birth. women had been thru it since the beginning of mankind, the fear is instilled, there are culteres where women learn from the elders that labor is the best experience of their life, they are actually in bliss while giving birth, strange is in it? think about that. that parasite has half of your dna by the way and it really kills you doesnt it? and as a woman you aint built to take all that on at all? all female species are and none of them are underbuilt for their purpose, nature isnt that cruel at all. the way you talk about pregnancy sounds as if you hate female body and its functions, there is nothing shameful disgusting hateful about giving birth. for many women its a rite of passage into womanhood. even though my child wasnt planned it didnt feel like parasite in my uterus at all, my body and its fertility didnt scare me or disgust me. it was actually a privilidge, i love my body and give it respect, not disgust. biologically i am female species and as such my body is made for that, its not a violation having a child growing in you. women who are raped go thru feelings like that but getting pregnant and having to abort wouldnt have to give feelings like pregnancy is something against you and making you less. i have had friends who had to abort child, they didnt feel that way, they were sad for what they couldnt have, they were upset about the situation, but not that the baby was a parasite attacking their womb and threatening their vagina and putting them into prospect of being in labour pain at all.i in fact never met a woman feeling about it that way, only a few friends who have been raped or sexually abused by parents and they tried to overcome that.

Vampire

12-07-2004, 05:55 PM

*applauds* That post was amazing. Thank you so much for sharing that; I read every bit. :)

Link04

12-07-2004, 08:57 PM

Originally posted by iamrighthereandnow+Dec 7 2004, 02:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (iamrighthereandnow @ Dec 7 2004, 02:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Link04@Dec 7 2004, 02:39 AM
I'm saying adoption isn't the end all be all solution, it has many hardships and reprocussions, as well as producing an unwanted child. At the risk of seeming insensitive, foster homes are the homes of unwanted children that were brought into the world reluctantly. Maybe some day a wanting couple will come along and adopt. But either way, that's something huge to loom over a child. Studies have shown that most of these kids tend to have social and emotional problems later in life. Makes their existance seem somewhat...hollow..no? A woman has the right to abort an unwanted child, instead of going through the more risky and traumatic ordeal of child birth.
i had a hard childhood of violence and abuse in family and bullying out of it, had a rough ride all along, i dont feel my life at all as hollow, in fact richer, those experiences somehow open your eyes and you treasure things that are good in your life more then people who had never lost them. i see people from good backround families taking things for granted and being unaprociative about what they have, where i say people who had been thru a hell of a lot dont. they worked for everything they have that much harder. and in general are more awake to life, because they worked it the hard way and payed the prize. murdering your kid has more repercussions then adoption. are you saying throwing a kid out of balcony is better then adoption? because she might have left it too long for abortion. maybe all unwanted kids should be dealt that way then? half of the mankind is also a result of accidents, shall we have a poll how many people on this forum had been planned? does it mean those of us who have been unwanted and unplanned have a hollow existence, are screwed up and have social inadequacies? get real.

pyromaniak, i was just out of teen years when i got pregnant, have you been pregnant? i had to have emergency ceasarian, listen, however much it hurts, so what? its so much pain but by the end of it you forget it, and dont underastimate the body's healing abilities, the younger you are the more amazing. i agree with vampire even though i would put myself to be irresponsible by his measures, but i havent thrown my kid out of the balcony, i take responsibility by being the best mother i can be and take full responsibility for my irresposibility upon conception by taking on the consequence by the best means i have. not all women are scared to death by giving birth. women had been thru it since the beginning of mankind, the fear is instilled, there are culteres where women learn from the elders that labor is the best experience of their life, they are actually in bliss while giving birth, strange is in it? think about that. that parasite has half of your dna by the way and it really kills you doesnt it? and as a woman you aint built to take all that on at all? all female species are and none of them are underbuilt for their purpose, nature isnt that cruel at all. the way you talk about pregnancy sounds as if you hate female body and its functions, there is nothing shameful disgusting hateful about giving birth. for many women its a rite of passage into womanhood. even though my child wasnt planned it didnt feel like parasite in my uterus at all, my body and its fertility didnt scare me or disgust me. it was actually a privilidge, i love my body and give it respect, not disgust. biologically i am female species and as such my body is made for that, its not a violation having a child growing in you. women who are raped go thru feelings like that but getting pregnant and having to abort wouldnt have to give feelings like pregnancy is something against you and making you less. i have had friends who had to abort child, they didnt feel that way, they were sad for what they couldnt have, they were upset about the situation, but not that the baby was a parasite attacking their womb and threatening their vagina and putting them into prospect of being in labour pain at all.i in fact never met a woman feeling about it that way, only a few friends who have been raped or sexually abused by parents and they tried to overcome that. [/b][/quote]
That's all well and dandy that you have such an appreciation, but the truth is most people don't. Abortion is not murder. You cannot murder something that is not a human person, I've already established this. Throwing your newborn out of a window is murder, please don't put words in my mouth. You're doing nothing but clouding the issue when you say that people's existances are unplanned. I was planned. If you weren't, that's all well and good, it does NOT mean you are unwanted, again, you're putting words in my mouth. There is a different between unplanned and unwanted. Even if a woman becomes pregnant unexpectantly, many step up to the situation and decide to provide for their kids. That's absolutely great of them, and it does not mean the child is unwanted. But if a potential mother is not ready to or CANNOT provide for their potential kid, she has the right to terminate a potential human growing within her within a certain time period, without going through the stress and possibly life threatening process of child birth. The government to tell her otherwise is absurd.

goso88

12-07-2004, 11:04 PM

all female species are and none of them are underbuilt for their purpose, nature isnt that cruel at all.

If you're talking about childbirth, I'd rethink that statement :)

Jila

12-08-2004, 04:17 AM

Originally posted by goso88@Dec 7 2004, 04:04 PM
all female species are and none of them are underbuilt for their purpose, nature isnt that cruel at all.

If you're talking about childbirth, I'd rethink that statement :)
exactly, women used to die all the time in childbirth. it was a really common thing back then. and even now, there are many complications. if no women are underbuilt for their "purpose", then there wouldnt be unfirtle women.

and you might think a woman's puropose in life is to have babies, but i, and many other feminists, do not believe that. little girls grow up being told how one day youre going to get married, have kids, and live happily ever after. they give you little toy babies to feed, change, and take care of, when theyre only in like first grade. thats ridiculous. then when they are teenagers, they tell them not to have sex, but if they do get pregnant they shouldnt get an abortion? its crazy how mixed messages are sent in society. but whatever, im straying from my point.

my point was, not everyone thinks a woman's purpose in life is to conceive children. sure it may be necessary for a species survival, but i dont think humans need to worry about that. i think people need to stop telling their 6 year old girls that having a baby is fun, and instead of rushing into motherhood by getting pregnant, maybe they should think about the children who need homes, not make another new one.

Vampire

12-08-2004, 05:29 AM

You guys are just taking it more off topic with every post. Now we're talking about the female species' purpose?

Jila

12-08-2004, 05:32 AM

most threads in serious chat get off topic

Vampire

12-08-2004, 05:48 AM

Yeah, it happens when there's nothing left to argue about I suppose.

Link04

12-08-2004, 08:17 PM

Actually, the main problem is that there's too much to argue. Why do you think the topic of abortion is so controversial? It's because it's reliant on specifics, circumstances, definitions, and analyzing. In turn, there are a billion topics that tie into abortion itself.

iamrighthereandnow

12-09-2004, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by PyRoMaNiaK+Dec 8 2004, 04:17 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PyRoMaNiaK @ Dec 8 2004, 04:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--goso88@Dec 7 2004, 04:04 PM
all female species are and none of them are underbuilt for their purpose, nature isnt that cruel at all.

If you're talking about childbirth, I'd rethink that statement :)
exactly, women used to die all the time in childbirth. it was a really common thing back then. and even now, there are many complications. if no women are underbuilt for their "purpose", then there wouldnt be unfirtle women.

and you might think a woman's puropose in life is to have babies, but i, and many other feminists, do not believe that. little girls grow up being told how one day youre going to get married, have kids, and live happily ever after. they give you little toy babies to feed, change, and take care of, when theyre only in like first grade. thats ridiculous. then when they are teenagers, they tell them not to have sex, but if they do get pregnant they shouldnt get an abortion? its crazy how mixed messages are sent in society. but whatever, im straying from my point.

my point was, not everyone thinks a woman's purpose in life is to conceive children. sure it may be necessary for a species survival, but i dont think humans need to worry about that. i think people need to stop telling their 6 year old girls that having a baby is fun, and instead of rushing into motherhood by getting pregnant, maybe they should think about the children who need homes, not make another new one. [/b][/quote]
those women mostly died due to lack of hygiene while the doctor or midwife delivered the baby, my mother is a midwife, so i would guess i know a bit about that. the reason why women dont die today is precisely because they dont get infected by dirty hands and dirty instruments. also midwives and doctors didnt have todays training. not to mention their poor lifestyles and hard labor would have finished them off as well. after labour also many times hight temperatures would set and at those times there were no medicines to lower it down and that was due to crossinfection. not to mention in the old ages some of the people couldnt even afford to have midwife or doctor. a lot of infertility comes down to the pollution, i dont think chemicals that are men made are intended by nature, do you? if you leave inflamation too long, you can demage your tubes and ovaries, morality around sex is different so there are sti's that can make you infertile like chlamydia. also it may be genetic defect.

there are many women who have kids and high flying career there too. i was talking about biological purpose, not social one. if one chooses not to have kids, i have no problems with it, but why not use birth control and prevent pregnancy in such that way then just thinking oh lets just have fun, so what if i have to have abortion?

i used to be feminist, let me tell you one thing, women are no less but no more then men and vice versa, equal power.

there is so much to being appalled by pain and dangers of childbirth but underestimating that abortion is also a surgical thing that hurts and can also deem you infertile and damage you. if childbirth is not a piece of cake,abortion is neither.

i am not against abortion, its anybody's choice.i am not telling people to have a kid when they dont want to what i am saying is Prevention is better then abortion. And Vampire had said so too, so i dont think i am the only one who sees the point of that.

i am not gonna advocate state telling women not to have abortion neither i am for a state who will force abortion upon poor and teenage mothers either and telling them thats a way to go instead of teaching them safe sex and making contraception available and giving abortion priority over that.

there are more safer means even very natural ones how not to conceive and abortion is hardly the hand it all out best solution. and if its too late to abort adoption is a solution better then throwing it from the window.

i dont think anybody teaches those girls things you said these days and i dont teach mine either. she wants to be an artist and i am more likely to support her with that when she grows up if its still what she wanna do, then just to become a mum. i have a job and study besides having her too., but kids at school and at home should be told the safe sex and awareness of taking responsibility at the first instance should be priority then ok, whatever, you can always have an abortion, thats ok, if you are irresponsible when it comes to sex, there is always back door because abortion is no problem.

Link 04 - neither i or you have means to know when the featus is human or not, doctors would debate it themselves with many experts and they would hesitate to proclaim 100% certainty yet you are putting yourself in position that you say that you established that featus isnt human. just because you say it is, it means it is so? i would doubt that. if you say so, provide hard core evidence of consciousness to demonstrate when it becomes human so even those doctors dont have to doubt anymore, to say somebody's existence is hollow just becuase they were unwanted is a judgement. i was planned and wanted by my father and sibling, maybe not by my mother but nevertheless she doesnt regret having me and i dont see myself as hollow existence by her hesistance to have me, and i would not make that judgement about somebody's existence either.
i take my position that i may be wrong.... or right, both is possible. i would certainly not play God. what for? . my opinion might be opposite to yours, why not? it would be boring if we all think the same, do the same, behave the same, feel the same, ..... what would be point of living then? what would be a point of experiencing.... i have shared my views, i am entitled to that, .if it seems i am loosing my point of view i can learn from what you say, you can learn from what i say instead of going 'your views are dandy, this or that, you and i are entitled to it whatever they are, i am not gonna rubbish it and i do hope for the future, you'd express your opinions without pointing a finger at the poster who has oposite views, when you point a finger, at somebody 3 are pointing back at you. the same way if i put words in your mouth, if i did i apologise to you. i dont hold myself to be perfect and wont freak out and pretend to the world i am, i wouldnt be real.the fact is, that you started going against adoption when it was suggested as a solution against throwing a kid out of the window if she didnt abort the baby in time in that case as argued ,excuse me but adoption kind of is better then throwing a kid out of window., in that situation to say that adoption damages people and makes them emotionally screwed up does put you in that position maybe you werent aware that that is how it came across.i have expressed my views not to be 'right or wrong' but tried to widen the gap of looking at the topic at hand. . you make assumption that unwanted kids are screwed up, i present you with a wider view i am not clouding a topic just if you dont get a point of it. unplanned and unwanted kids have the same potential for a good life as planned and wanted as the wanted and planned kids have a potential for a life of misery. in no way i said goverment should force women into not aborting and i have not seen that suggestion from sm else, maybe you can point it out. so i do hope i am not having imaginary words coming out of my mouth either.

Link04

12-09-2004, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by iamrighthereandnow@Dec 9 2004, 02:12 PM
if one chooses not to have kids, i have no problems with it, but why not use birth control and prevent pregnancy in such that way then just thinking oh lets just have fun, so what if i have to have abortion?

there is so much to being appalled by pain and dangers of childbirth but underestimating that abortion is also a surgical thing that hurts and can also deem you infertile and damage you. if childbirth is not a piece of cake,abortion is neither.

i dont think anybody teaches those girls things you said these days and i dont teach mine either. she wants to be an artist and i am more likely to support her with that when she grows up if its still what she wanna do, then just to become a mum. i have a job and study besides having her too., but kids at school and at home should be told the safe sex and awareness of taking responsibility at the first instance should be priority then ok, whatever, you can always have an abortion, thats ok, if you are irresponsible when it comes to sex, there is always back door because abortion is no problem.

Link 04 - neither i or you have means to know when the featus is human or not, doctors would debate it themselves with many experts and they would hesitate to proclaim 100% certainty yet you are putting yourself in position that you say that you established that featus isnt human. just because you say it is, it means it is so? i would doubt that. if you say so, provide hard core evidence of consciousness to demonstrate when it becomes human so even those doctors dont have to doubt anymore, to say somebody's existence is hollow just becuase they were unwanted is a judgement. i was planned and wanted by my father and sibling, maybe not by my mother but nevertheless she doesnt regret having me and i dont see myself as hollow existence by her hesistance to have me, and i would not make that judgement about somebody's existence either.
i take my position that i may be wrong.... or right, both is possible. i would certainly not play God. what for? . my opinion might be opposite to yours, why not? it would be boring if we all think the same, do the same, behave the same, feel the same, ..... what would be point of living then? what would be a point of experiencing.... i have shared my views, i am entitled to that, .if it seems i am loosing my point of view i can learn from what you say, you can learn from what i say instead of going 'your views are dandy, this or that, you and i are entitled to it whatever they are, i am not gonna rubbish it and i do hope for the future, you'd express your opinions without pointing a finger at the poster who has oposite views, when you point a finger, at somebody 3 are pointing back at you. the same way if i put words in your mouth, if i did i apologise to you. i dont hold myself to be perfect and wont freak out and pretend to the world i am, i wouldnt be real.the fact is, that you started going against adoption when it was suggested as a solution against throwing a kid out of the window if she didnt abort the baby in time in that case as argued ,excuse me but adoption kind of is better then throwing a kid out of window., in that situation to say that adoption damages people and makes them emotionally screwed up does put you in that position maybe you werent aware that that is how it came across.i have expressed my views not to be 'right or wrong' but tried to widen the gap of looking at the topic at hand. . you make assumption that unwanted kids are screwed up, i present you with a wider view i am not clouding a topic just if you dont get a point of it. unplanned and unwanted kids have the same potential for a good life as planned and wanted as the wanted and planned kids have a potential for a life of misery. in no way i said goverment should force women into not aborting and i have not seen that suggestion from sm else, maybe you can point it out. so i do hope i am not having imaginary words coming out of my mouth either.
Just a few quick facts: The majority, 54% of women who have abortions, used a contraceptive during the time they had had sex and became pregnant. Also, the risk of abortion complications is minimal, less than1%, not that it doesn't happen, but it's extremely rare. And again, the death rate of women having abortions is about 11 times less than that of childbirth. http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_..._abortions.html (http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortions.html)

And I'm debating "personhood" here. Within the time that the vast majority of abortions occur (about 6 months), a fetus cannot be considered a human PERSON, and therefore is not protected by law, nor capable of being murdered.

What is the biggest, if not only distinguishing factor of a human person? Advanced thought. It is the root of our society, culture, language, and our way of life. A human fetus before the age of at least 6 months has been scientifically proven to lack the necessary brain architecture to think. Therefore, before this time, a human fetus cannot be considered a human person.: http://www.2think.org/science_abortion.shtml

I'm going to leave what I said about "hollow existance" alone, and stop talking about it, because you misinterpreted my meaning, or I didn't bring it across clear enough. Some people who spend their whole lifes in foster homes DO feel this way. That's all I'm going to say.

Please, do not read into anything I say as hostility. With the expression "that's fine and dandy" I was pointing out how subjective that one subject was. I was not belittling your ideas, your opinions, your thought process, or 'pointing any fingers'. I enjoy a good debate, and that's what I'm out for, nothing more.

Of course adoptions better than murder, which is throwing a kid out of a window. The topic has evolved to more than that. I'm debating abortion and adoption on a whole, not jjust the particulars of this woman's actions with her child any more.

Never did I once say that ALL adopted kids are screw ups. But some are. Hell, some kids that aren't adopted are screw ups. But some studies have been conducted to show that if you spend your life motherless, or in a foster home, emotional, social, and phsychological abnormalities are more common.

And the bit about the government was just a comment on how making abortion illigal would be invasive...it wasn't really directed to any one person, moreso the topic at hand.

goso88

12-10-2004, 04:55 AM

Prevention is better then abortion. And Vampire had said so too, so i dont think i am the only one who sees the point of that.

I think everyone agrees on that. People who are arguing for abortion right now is talking about cases when protection is used, but nevertheless get pregnant.

if one chooses not to have kids, i have no problems with it, but why not use birth control and prevent pregnancy in such that way then just thinking oh lets just have fun, so what if i have to have abortion?

As tempting as it is to believe that, people just aren't that simple. No woman just flips a coin and decides, oh why the hell not, lets get an abortion. No girl casually asks herself before having sex, oh so what if I have to have an abortion? Thats like saying, oh so what if I get aids having sex? No big deal. Do you think irresponsible teenagers are thinking about things like abortion and aids when they decide to have sex? Probably not. If they are, they clearly believe it won't happen to them. They probably aren't taking the bit of "fun" seriously at all. And then when they do get pregnant, they probably aren't saying, oh well, i can just get an abortion and thats that. No, the consequences (such as abortion, pregnacy and anything else unprepapred and irresponsible sex entails) are probably weighing heavily on them by that time.

iamrighthereandnow

12-10-2004, 09:59 AM

points taken ;) but there is already a topic here dedicated to teen pregnancy. also if you are told that contraceptive pill is 99% secure, for accidents with connies or whatever you can get early morning pills which has 85% reliability, maybe those 54% women took less relieable means, whatever. i have not heard of widespread childbirth deaths in ages, still dont know why its demonised here so much.
to debate with you if featus is human or not is as much controvertial as debating eating and not eating animals. great you provide links, but who can trust internet 100% i can find you now sites that would tell you that you are endangering yourself by drinking milk as many there are sites telling you the opposite, both with sufficient, reliable resources of medical research. its a personal choice in the end and comes down to personal belief and choice. abortion should neither be forced, nor should it be denied.

goso88

12-10-2004, 10:42 PM

points taken* but there is already a topic here dedicated to teen pregnancy

Why are you telling me this? I was just going along with the discussion, like you were; I was responding to your post, and it was only logical that I respond to it in this thread where your post is, not in the teen pregnancy thread where your post isn't. Don't worry, I know what I'm doing enough so that I won't just pull topics out of thin air without any relevance to the discussion at hand :lol:.

Jila

12-11-2004, 06:25 AM

also it may be genetic defect
therefore, what you said about "all female species are and none of them are underbuilt for their purpose, nature isnt that cruel at all." would be false. besides, even without the hygiene factor, there are still many complications that can occur during a pregnancy. if by any chance you had none, it does not mean many women dont as well.

but why not use birth control and prevent pregnancy in such that way then just thinking oh lets just have fun, so what if i have to have abortion?
using protection doesnt give you a 100% chance of not preventing pregnancy

i used to be feminist, let me tell you one thing, women are no less but no more then men and vice versa, equal power.
that doesnt mean its happening in society. women are always being shortchanged, especially when it comes to having children. its not fair that women are always being blamed for getting pregnant/having an abortion, a man can easily just leave her, and women are being told (by people like you) that their purpose in life is to be a mother.

if childbirth is not a piece of cake,abortion is neither.
abortion is proven to be more safe than being pregnant, especially in teenage girls.

Prevention is better then abortion.
like i said before, you cannot be 100% protected

and if its too late to abort adoption is a solution better then throwing it from the window.
well we dont really know the circumstances of this situation. who, knows, maybe she had a gun pointed to her head. but if it were just her being irresponsible and adoption was possible, then yes, it was very wrong and adoption should have been done.

i dont think anybody teaches those girls things you said these days and i dont teach mine either.
they do. you might not, but many people do. if they didnt, im pretty sure the makers of those baby-born dolls would have been bankrupt by now.

i do think they should start teaching teenagers about safe sex instead of just abstinence. thats part of the problem with teenage pregnancies. there are going to be kids that have sex, so they might as well teach them how to be safe about it, but i do not think telling a girl she shouldnt have an abortion because she was irresponsible does not help the situation at all.

Vampire

12-11-2004, 06:35 AM

Originally posted by PyRoMaNiaK@Dec 10 2004, 10:25 PM
Prevention is better then abortion.
like i said before, you cannot be 100% protected
I had to make a comment here. Dude...prevention...that is 100% protection. That's not having sex. :lol:

Jila

12-11-2004, 06:38 AM

Originally posted by Vampire+Dec 10 2004, 11:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Vampire @ Dec 10 2004, 11:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--PyRoMaNiaK@Dec 10 2004, 10:25 PM
Prevention is better then abortion.
like i said before, you cannot be 100% protected
I had to make a comment here. Dude...prevention...that is 100% protection. That's not having sex. :lol: [/b][/quote]
thats abstinence

i meant prevention as in protection, like condoms, birth control pills, etc.

Vampire

12-11-2004, 06:46 AM

Originally posted by PyRoMaNiaK+Dec 10 2004, 10:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PyRoMaNiaK @ Dec 10 2004, 10:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -Vampire@Dec 10 2004, 11:35 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--PyRoMaNiaK@Dec 10 2004, 10:25 PM
Prevention is better then abortion.
like i said before, you cannot be 100% protected
I had to make a comment here. Dude...prevention...that is 100% protection. That's not having sex. :lol:
thats abstinence

i meant prevention as in protection, like condoms, birth control pills, etc. [/b][/quote]
Ah, okay. My apologies.

iamrighthereandnow

12-11-2004, 09:53 AM

goso, i was talking to link 04 as he said he wants to discuss abortion and adoption as in issues on its own without relating to the case that has started this thread, i was not telling you not to react to my post, i was just pointing out that there is already a thread that has been discussing these issues so it might be interesting to go there for link 04 if he wants to widen the debate on a thread solely dedicated to that.

gosh, pyromaniak, i SAID BEFORE AND SHALL I REPEAT MYSELF TILL THE END OF THE WORLD OR SOMETHING, I AM NOT AGAINST ABORTION, BUT NEITHER I AM GONNA ADVOCATE ABORTION BEING FORCED ON WOMEN EITHER. so dont judge me what i tell people what to do.... i dont hold gun to anybody's head and never have done, as i said i am sharing my opinions, i am hardly putting laws in place and going round schools or baricading abortion clinics. before you say things like that do bother to read people's post in detail, neither project. I am getting bord of making that point clear. I am not against abortion, neither i am for forcing it, neither i am for advocating it before advocating safe sex, if that fails, and no other option, i dont prevent people to go for it.

there are even teenagers who choose to be pregnant for godsake, should they be forced to abort because childbirth is demonised by some,, i would not advice them to have kids, neither i am gonna force them to abort just because i think its better. ITS THEIR CHOICE. And i did already say here i had to have an emergency ceasarian, hold on, you telling me i had easy time or something????? but just because there are complications one is supposed to run away? that may be one person's way, but not others.

listen i hate barbies, my daughter loves them, did i force her into liking them? i used to hate dollies and would paint for hours instead, while my daughter paints she also plays with dolls, her choice, not all girls are born feminist and hate dolls, they might not be to brainwash kids into future parenthood, kids like dolls or teddies for comfort, for role play and for copying their mother, is their mum supposed to stop being a mum so they are rightfully feminist without a choice?

dont put women into being victims of men, if a woman knows how to say no, there is no men who would abuse her. i have showed my ex a door when he started being agressive just towards furniture! you get yourself into a trouble and you blame whole world for it, is that responsibility? no. and let me give you a reality check, a hell lot of MEN HELP WITH BRINGING CHILDREN UP ACTIVELY, A LOT OF WOMEN GO OUT TO WORK WHILE MEN MIGHT TAKE CARE OF KIDS, THERE ARE EVEN SINGLE DADS OUT THERE FOR GOD SAKE. THERE ARE MEN WHO RESPECT WOMEN AND WHO DO NOT SEEK TO BRING HER POWER DOWN. I EVEN HAVE FEW MALE FRIENDS WHO HAD TO SUFFER VIOLENCE FROM THEIR GIRLFRIEND, now let me tell you a men would be arrested for that, but not the girl, HEY GUYS ON THE FORUM IS THAT FAIR? IS IT ONLY WOMEN WHO ARE HARD DONE BY THE MEN?

feminists are equal to sexist guys, both is slightly stinking of unfairness and hate towards the opposite sex. how far does hate get you? it comes down to self hate. you cannot give what you aint got, and if you aint got self love, its hate you got and hate you give. whats the point of hating men? whats the point of feeling like a victim and blaming men for everything that women let themself loose? BUILD A SELF LOVE FOR YOURSELF, FOCUS ON BRINGING IN YOUR LIFE YOUR OWN PERSONAL POWER and nobody will fuck with you, and you will be able to live your life in respect and love with the opposite sex, yeah with complication here and there but life is a learning journey. so if you choose to sit in a feminist corner, dont blame others for not choosing to sit there! I believe in EQUAL POWER. I have my own power, the guy i am with has his, i am not gonna let him take mine if he tries and i aint gonna take his away from him either just because i'd feel dont have my own.